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If Joffrey had black hair and was Robert's son would anything have changed

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On 3/12/2019 at 8:28 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The better question is: how different would Joffrey be if he was Robert's son?

Would he still have been the little monster that he was? Would he have been more of a traditional Baratheon? How much of his negative traits were due to his being a product of incest as well as being partly Targaryen (yes, I consider the Lannister twins to be half-Targaryen)? Was it nature or nurture that made Joffrey the way he was?

Well, the nurture would've changed as well. Knowing Cersei I doubt she would've loved and spoiled Robert's son to the degree she did Joffrey. 

And Robert would've been way more involved in the kid's upbringing instead of essentially checking out like he did with Joffrey.  

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Robert would have liked him more and this Joffrey would not be so much of a Psycho. I think Robert on a subconscious level didn't care about Joffrey because he looked so much like a Lannister. 

And you can't blame Renly Stannis was doing fuck all on Dragonstone and being incommunicado it was upto Renly to get rid of the Lannisters. Also I wouldn't listen to Lord Varys that guy is a total weirdo and sex pervert to boot. 

Edited by Headfallsoff

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On 3/12/2019 at 7:28 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The better question is: how different would Joffrey be if he was Robert's son?

Would he still have been the little monster that he was? Would he have been more of a traditional Baratheon? How much of his negative traits were due to his being a product of incest as well as being partly Targaryen (yes, I consider the Lannister twins to be half-Targaryen)? Was it nature or nurture that made Joffrey the way he was?

I can't imagine he would have turned out very different. Everybody says that Cersei ruined Joffrey by telling him all the time that he's the future king and coddling him the way he did. I believe she poisoned the well and he was just destined to be a little shit. Lets not forget the pregnant cat incident, which resulted in Robert hitting knocking him around. 

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Jon Arryn and Stannis wouldn't have suspected Cersei's children to be bastards, they wouldn't have poked around for answers. Littlefinger may have still killed Arryn because CHAOS IS A LADDER! LOL!, but I am not so sure... what would he get from that? He became the Lord Warden of the Vale only thanks to the war...

If Littlefinger has Jon Arryn murdered anyways: If Ned doesn't suspect Cersei's children to be bastards then Cersei has no reason to kill Robert so soon, and Ned isn't a threat to Cersei... So he either...

1.-stays as Hand of the King long enough for Sansa to marry Joffrey, or,

2.-if Littlefinger's meddling causes Catelyn to kidnap Tyrion, causing Jamie to attack Ned, causing Tywin to send the Mountain to ravage the countryside... etc., Ned probably is allowed to leave KL safely and return to the North (that was what Cersei and Tywin wanted all along, and as a matter of fact, Cersei, kinda liked Ned... she saw him as a honorable fool, but she admitted that she would like her son to have friends like him...).

If Robert is alive and Ned is allowed to go, then Tyrion returns safely to KL, and the conflict between Starks and Lannisters defuses. The Stark stay in the North, the Lannisters gain more influence over the throne, Tywin probably becoming Hand of the King...

3.-if Ned stays in KL in order to try to fix the mess caused by Catelyn when she kidnapped Tyrion (since Ned doesn't feel so threatened by Lannisters, not knowing about Cersei's adultery), Tyrion would explain everything to both Ned Stark, Jamie Lannister and Tywin Lannister, and Littlefinger better think something clever very fast, because both the Lannisters and the Stark would want to know why he lied about the dagger, incriminating Tyrion and almost provoking a war between the Lannisters and the Starks... Hell, Jamie Lannister may just cut his throat consequences be damned!.

 

Edited by Ser Lepus

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Well would Joffrey still have been himself without the inbreeding?

In practice, if Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen had the black hair and blue eyes of Robert then there wouldn't have been a need for Stannis and Jon Arryn to investigate Robert's bastards and everything that came with that.

While I don't think that Ned or Stannis would have gone against Robert's trueborn son, there probably would still have been a war to try an unseat the Lannisters. Plus with Varys, Littlefinger, the Martells, and the Ironborn there was going to be war at some point. 

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He'd still be a little prick.  Robert is not father of the year.  The Baratheons are not free of the cruel streak.  I would say Robert is a better person than Jaime but neither would play a role in his life.  

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On 3/11/2019 at 4:36 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

If Joff had brown hair Jon Arryn wouldn't have been murdered, because there would have been nothing for him to have pried into. Ned thusly would not have been asked to Hand. The Starks would not have left Winterfell and we wouldn't have a story.

That incest is important!!

Not to say it wouldn't all have ended the same anyway - but I think not, at all.

It would be a totally different story, potentially no war of the 5 kings etc.

Umm, I thought Arryn was poisoned by Lysa under the direction of Baelish.  I think Lysa wanted to kill Jon because he was going to foster Sweet Robin with the Lannisters. :dunno:

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On 1/7/2020 at 10:23 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

He'd still be a little prick.  Robert is not father of the year.  The Baratheons are not free of the cruel streak.  I would say Robert is a better person than Jaime but neither would play a role in his life.  

Joffrey's cruel is arguably the result of two factors:

1) Cersei's coddling.

2) Robert's neglect.

There's also the inbreeding factor I suppose, but we'll set that aside for now.

If Joffrey was Robert's trueborn son then it's doubtful Cersei would have coddled him like she did, if at all. In fact, I'd say that she'd neglect him the way she canonically neglected Myrcella and Tommen. If Tommen and/or Myrcella were sired by Jaime, it's more likely she'd switch targets and coddle them instead and leave Joffrey relatively untouched.

It's also doubtful that if Jofffrey was trueborn he would have been neglected by Robert the way he was. Robert was never going to win father of the year, but we do know that he took at least some interest in his bastards and gave them his attention when he encountered them. That sort of attention was absent from Joffrey's life because Robert subconsciously didn't consider Joffrey as his.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Joffrey ended up growing up to resemble Stannis - bitter at being passed over by those who were supposed to care for him, and unyielding because the world never gave him any leeway.

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On 1/12/2020 at 9:57 PM, The Jingo said:

Joffrey's cruel is arguably the result of two factors:

1) Cersei's coddling.

2) Robert's neglect.

There's also the inbreeding factor I suppose, but we'll set that aside for now.

If Joffrey was Robert's trueborn son then it's doubtful Cersei would have coddled him like she did, if at all. In fact, I'd say that she'd neglect him the way she canonically neglected Myrcella and Tommen. If Tommen and/or Myrcella were sired by Jaime, it's more likely she'd switch targets and coddle them instead and leave Joffrey relatively untouched.

It's also doubtful that if Jofffrey was trueborn he would have been neglected by Robert the way he was. Robert was never going to win father of the year, but we do know that he took at least some interest in his bastards and gave them his attention when he encountered them. That sort of attention was absent from Joffrey's life because Robert subconsciously didn't consider Joffrey as his.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Joffrey ended up growing up to resemble Stannis - bitter at being passed over by those who were supposed to care for him, and unyielding because the world never gave him any leeway.

Cersei could react that way but even she would not know for sure who the father is.  

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1 hour ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Cersei could react that way but even she would not know for sure who the father is.  

If Joffrey had black hair and looked like Robert it would be pretty obvious who his father was.

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Well, for one, Cersei might have kept Robert along a little longer.

I doubt Renly would have rebelled but it's likely he would have. Depends on exactly how persuasive, invasive and unscrupulous the Tyrells really are...

Melisandre was already on Dragonstone at the time so who knows. It may have taken her longer to turn Stannis but he might've still turned and sought to usurp the Iron Throne.

In any case, I doubt Joffrey would be a good person. He may even be worst because there's a good chance that Cersei would neglect/abuse him because he's Robert's son. Since Joffrey would be bad, Sansa may be in trouble which would spur the Starks and the Tullys to take action.

Mance Rayder and the wildlings were still coming, the Others were still coming, the Targaryens were still coming, Balon Greyjoy still would've been plotting his revenge, Bloodraven was still looking for a successor, etc.

I think that everything that happened and is bound to happen would still happen. I just think that it would happen further down the line. Like I imagine that it would take another 3 years (at the very earliest): Bran would be at least 10, Jon Snow would be a legal adult at 17 and Sansa would be 14 which is a more sensible betrothal age.

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