Poll: Is Sweetrobin the Son of Littlefinger?

[PrinceHenryris]

Qualified yes.

The posters above me have pretty much fleshed out the arguments so I won't waste everyone's time.

 The reason I say qualified yes is analogous to poker.  If you asked me to call a $20 bet on a $200 pot that Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's brat I absolutely would.  If I were asked to risk all my chips, I wouldn't.

I have a feeling that Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's but I'm not willing to bet the farm on it.

[Lady Winter Rose]

If Lysa know who's Robert was, she would have told Littlefinger while they were alone, but not in front of Sansa (but that's not consistent with she blabbing everything else), maybe Littlefinger just pushed her before she told much much more (like, told her he loved only one woman so she can shut up for second, then quickly push her), but maybe she wanted her only son to be a lord that she delused herself into thinking wrongly....

[bent branch]

No.

Honestly, this is a question that I am really split on. Knowing what all the parties in question look like and that LF and Lysa had an ongoing affair, I would be inclined to say yes. But I still don't see how it would be relevant to the story, so I'll stick with no for now.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 3/11/2019 at 10:17 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Thank you for your vote. 

People seem slow to vote on this one.  I guess it just doesn't excite people the way Daario=Euron excites people.

It's not inflammatory, yeah.

[Sigella]

On 3/21/2019 at 8:59 AM, Lynesse said:

"No." She stamped a foot. "I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they'll hear me in the Eyrie!" (ASOS, Sansa VI)

That could mean that this was the first time it didn't have to be quiet. Typical GRRM-wording and hopeless to decide which was the intended meaning other than the obvious - that Lysa is going to be loud.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Just now, Sigella said:

That could mean that this was the first time it didn't have to be quiet. Typical GRRM-wording and hopeless to decide which was the intended meaning other than the obvious - that Lysa is going to be loud.

Reads like they were *ahem, doing it while Lysa was married to Jon.  But it doesn't mean the uhm, encounters, produced a child.  Petyr's shots missed the target.  Still saying No.

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

Reads like they were *ahem, doing it while Lysa was married to Jon.  But it doesn't mean the uhm, encounters, produced a child.  Petyr's shots missed the target.  Still saying No.

True, if they hadn't before it's weird to emphasise the screaming instead of the lovin'.

edit: But then, Lysa and Peter and their whole thing is weird so..

[Vaith]

No.

I feel like Lysa would have said something different before she got pushed out of the moon door. She references their child who was aborted by moon tea; it seems like if she knew she had conceived a living child she might have mentioned it (she wasn't exactly being very discreet at the time so what is really holding her back). 

I will admit the hair colour stuff does seem a little strange since fantasy genetics are a big part of ASOIAF with most lineages seeming to have appearances tied to the very family name, but I just think there'd be more hints. If this is the case then it'd be kind of fucked up that LF would be (based on TWOW stuff) seemingly looking for his own son to die so he can start some Harry/Sansa chaos -- not impossible, just seems particularly dark/odd.

[Megorova]

Yes, I think he is.

They look alike, both are small and darkhaired. Robert's eye color is not given, while LF's is grey-green, and Jon Arryn's, probably, were blue, if mentioning, that in his youth he looked like Harrold Hardyng, means that he was blue-eyed blond. Lysa had blue eyes and auburn hair, so if Jon also had blue eyes and blond hair, then there's no way that their child is dark-haired and dark-eyed (darker than blue, and green or grey is darker than blue, because blue-colored eyes are eyes with the least amount of melanine (coloring pigment)). Also Petyr was brought to King's Landing at about that time when Lysa became pregnant, so it's likely that Sweetrobin is indeed LF's child. Also this will explain, why LF still haven't killed him, like he did his mother.

12 hours ago, Vaith said:

If this is the case then it'd be kind of fucked up that LF would be (based on TWOW stuff) seemingly looking for his own son to die so he can start some Harry/Sansa chaos -- not impossible, just seems particularly dark/odd.

If lords of The Vale will chose Harrold Hardyng as their ruler, then there will be no need for LF to kill Sweetrobin. If Harrold will become Lord of The Vale, and will marry with Sansa, and then die, then Sansa will become ruler of The Vale, same as Lysa did after her husband's death.

I think, that LF's aim is to get under Sansa as many Kingdoms as possible. She's the last officially known surviving legitimate child of Ned Stark, which makes her ruler of The North. She is wife of Lannister, and if people will believe in Tyrion's death, she will be widow-Lannister. Tywin died, Kevan died, Kevan's son joined Sparrows, Jaime is a Kingsguard, so if Cersei will die, or will be forced to become septa, or to renounce her rights, then de-facto, as Tyrion's widow, Sansa will become ruler of Westerlands. If Edmure Tully will die, then Sansa will also become ruler of Riverlands. Even though there's still Blackfish, but based on case of Allys Karstark, daughters are first in line before uncles or great-uncles. So Sansa, as child of Hoster Tully's child, is the second in line of inheritance, after Edmure, while Blackfish is the third. That is, if Edmure's child will be born dead, or will die after birth. Which is highly likely. So Sansa will be a metaphorical key to four out of seven Kingdoms - The North, The Vale, Riverlands and Westerlands. And then LF will offer to marry her to fAegon, who will become King Aegon VI Targaryen. Probably, with intention to later do the same thing, as he did with Lysa and Jon - he will make Sansa poison her husband, and then, thru marriage with her, LF will become King of 7K. Could be, that this is his Big Plan. Though it will fail because Tyrion will survive, so Sansa won't rule over Westerlands. Edmure can survive, and his child too, so Sansa won't rule over Riverlands. And because it will be revealed, that Bran and Rickon are alive, and that Robb made Jon Snow his heir, Sansa won't have even The North. And in The Vale things also could go differently than what LF was expecting/planning. And later Dany will arrive to Westeros with her dragons, and will burn fAegon. So LF won't get to Iron Throne, even though he had his Big Plan how to make himself King.

[Vaith]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If lords of The Vale will chose Harrold Hardyng as their ruler, then there will be no need for LF to kill Sweetrobin. If Harrold will become Lord of The Vale, and will marry with Sansa, and then die, then Sansa will become ruler of The Vale, same as Lysa did after her husband's death.

I don't think a usurpation is likely -- the Lords of the Vale thus far have defended the rights of Jon Arryn's heir, and there's a lot of foreshadowing with Sansa giving Sweetrobin perhaps a little too much sweetsleep...

Ruler of the Vale? If she managed to have a child, she'd probably be regent, I guess. But true spousal inheritance isn't really... done in Westeros? There's the case of Barbrey Ryswell, unusually respected for a young widow of Lord Dustin, but even if they let her hold some position like that, it'd probably go to one of the poor branches of the Arryns scattered across the Vale, or the Arryns of Gulltown.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that LF's aim is to get under Sansa as many Kingdoms as possible. She's the last officially known surviving legitimate child of Ned Stark, which makes her ruler of The North. She is wife of Lannister, and if people will believe in Tyrion's death, she will be widow-Lannister. Tywin died, Kevan died, Kevan's son joined Sparrows, Jaime is a Kingsguard, so if Cersei will die, or will be forced to become septa, or to renounce her rights, then de-facto, as Tyrion's widow, Sansa will become ruler of Westerlands. If Edmure Tully will die, then Sansa will also become ruler of Riverlands. Even though there's still Blackfish, but based on case of Allys Karstark, daughters are first in line before uncles or great-uncles. So Sansa, as child of Hoster Tully's child, is the second in line of inheritance, after Edmure, while Blackfish is the third. That is, if Edmure's child will be born dead, or will die after birth. Which is highly likely. So Sansa will be a metaphorical key to four out of seven Kingdoms - The North, The Vale, Riverlands and Westerlands. And then LF will offer to marry her to fAegon, who will become King Aegon VI Targaryen. Probably, with intention to later do the same thing, as he did with Lysa and Jon - he will make Sansa poison her husband, and then, thru marriage with her, LF will become King of 7K. Could be, that this is his Big Plan. Though it will fail because Tyrion will survive, so Sansa won't rule over Westerlands. Edmure can survive, and his child too, so Sansa won't rule over Riverlands. And because it will be revealed, that Bran and Rickon are alive, and that Robb made Jon Snow his heir, Sansa won't have even The North. And in The Vale things also could go differently than what LF was expecting/planning. And later Dany will arrive to Westeros with her dragons, and will burn fAegon. So LF won't get to Iron Throne, even though he had his Big Plan how to make himself King.

Okay, so if this is LF's plan, why didn't he make it so that Sansa married Joffrey and poisoned him, if you think that's how titles can be inherited? LF's plan seems to earnestly be chaos for chaos's sake, that is, to screw over the Starks and Tullys who snubbed him by not letting him marry Cat, while keeping his own Cat in Sansa.

The westerlands theory is really illogical. If Baelish is going to marry Sansa to Harry, he'll likely get a council of Faith to dissolve an unconsummated marriage. Thus she wouldn't have a claim to regency -- besides, there aren't exactly a shortage of Lannisters. After Tywin's line there's Martyn Lannister (since Lancel's all Faith Militant-y), and I don't think you can say Cersei's story is entirely done and dusted at this point.

How is it likely Edmure's child will die? Roslin's not having the best maternal care in the world, but she is at the Twins instead of being some hostage somewhere. I don't think you can deduce that it's likely from the text at all. 

I mean at least you admit this could fail -- but I just don't think Littlefinger's likely to think that marrying a king's widow will make him accepted as king. I don't even think he wants the Iron Throne.

[BalerionTheCat]

No. If LF knew (and Lisa would have told him), he would not plot to kill/usurp him. The only purpose would be LF to kill Robin then discovering he was his son. But how would he learn? And I'm not even sure LF would care for a dumb son.

Jon had difficulty to get children. Robin's sickness would be the consequence of this.

[Platypus Rex]

It seems evident to me that Little Lord Flappy-Arms, with his bird-name and his birdlike qualities, must be a true descendant of the Winged Knight of yore. 

[Daemon of the Blacks]

Probably not. Sweetrobin being sickly and weird seems a natural outcome when combining Jon Aryn's previous trouble with bearing children and Lysa being damaged after Hosters um...intervention. Unlike Robert Jon's seed is not strong and neither is Lysa's belly. I'd be more suspicious about Robin's parentage if he was a healthy kid.

[Guest]

If the timing is right he certainly is. Has anyone done a timeline to see if it fits? Do we have info on Littlefinger's whereabouts in the right timeframe?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

No. 

In a moment when Lysa is super vulnerable and spilling her gut about the forced abortion and everything she and Littlefinger did under the sun, that would have been a good moment for her to tell him that Robert was his son especially since she is so desperate for his love before he shoves her out the Moon Door. 

[Megorova]

22 hours ago, Vaith said:

Okay, so if this is LF's plan, why didn't he make it so that Sansa married Joffrey and poisoned him, if you think that's how titles can be inherited?

Because there still was Tommen. So just poisoning Joffrey wouldn't have created for Sansa the same situation, as that death had created for Margaery. Joffrey died, and Margaery married Tommen. If Myrcella will also die, and then Tommen, and Sparrows will force Cersei to become septa, or to renounce her rights (as King Robert's widow), then Margaery will be Queen of 7K. And the King of 7K will be whoever Margaery will marry. Obviously, that it will be advantageous for him (Mary's future husband), if he will be a Targaryen (like fAegon, who claims, that he is a Targaryen).

If Sansa poisoned Joffrey, then Cersei would have executed her, not allowed her to marry with Tommen. Also Sansa's marriage with Joffrey woudn't have added Westerlands into the flock of Kingdoms under LF's/Sansa's posession. At that time there still was Tyrion, and Kevan Lannister, and Kevan's family. While Joffrey is a Baratheon, not a Lannister. So Joffrey would have had Westerlands only after death of all other Lannisters. Only then those lands could be inherited by Lannisters' closest relatives, and that would have been Baratheon-children of Cersei Baratheon nee Lannister. While Sansa's marriage with Tyrion made her so much closer to "Throne of Westerlands". As Tyrion's wife, Sansa, probably, has less rights than Kevan and his family, but more rights than Cersei and her children. So in case of Kevan's removal, and Tyrion's death, Sansa will get Westerlands, not Cersei. Same as in case of Eddard Stark's death, if all of his children also died, then The North would have been Catelyn's, not passed to Karstarks, or other Starks' relatives.

22 hours ago, Vaith said:

LF's plan seems to earnestly be chaos for chaos's sake, that is, to screw over the Starks and Tullys who snubbed him by not letting him marry Cat, while keeping his own Cat in Sansa.

If everything was because of Cat, then he wouldn't have let her be killed. He could have saved her, but he didn't. Which means, that he didn't actually loved her, or cared about her.

22 hours ago, Vaith said:

The westerlands theory is really illogical. If Baelish is going to marry Sansa to Harry, he'll likely get a council of Faith to dissolve an unconsummated marriage.

There's no reason for Harry to reveal to people, that Sansa's marriage with Tyrion wasn't consummated. Also, how is he going to prove it? Even if during their first night, Sansa will tell Harry, that she is still a maiden, he wouldn't believe her (because of Tyrion's reputation), until he will confirm it, by having sex with her. And afterwards, how can he prove to council of Faith, that prior he had sex with her, she was a maiden? Also, it's unlikely, that after their wedding, and during their first night, he will be in an appropriate mood and condition to have with his bride conversations. He will be drunk, and all he will want from her, is to have sex with her, not to listen to her fairy tails about chivalry of her ex-husband, who supposedly didn't fucked her. And, is it already known in The Vale, that Alayne is actually Sansa Stark? Harry is going to marry with LF's daughter Alayne, so there's no reason for him to call forth any council.

23 hours ago, Vaith said:

How is it likely Edmure's child will die? Roslin's not having the best maternal care in the world, but she is at the Twins instead of being some hostage somewhere. I don't think you can deduce that it's likely from the text at all. 

"Catelyn Tully worries whether Roslin would be healthy enough to bear children as people from Rosby stock are not known for their robustness" "Roslin is small."

It's likely, that she will die during childbirth, and the baby too. Like first wife of Jorah Mormont, and first wife of Jon Arryn.

23 hours ago, Vaith said:

I mean at least you admit this could fail -- but I just don't think Littlefinger's likely to think that marrying a king's widow will make him accepted as king. I don't even think he wants the Iron Throne.

I think, that he is also distantly bloodrelated to Targaryens, same as fAegon (who is actually a Blackfyre). Aegon IV prior his death has legitimised all of his bastards, which means, that if there will be no pureblooded Targaryens left, then their Blackfyre (and other ex-bastard) relatives can claim Iron Throne. I think, that Aegon IV had a child with Jeyne Lothstone, this child, possibly, was the Bastard of Harrenhal. And I think, that this Bastard established House Whent (which makes LF and Cate something like third cousins, which also means, that Cat's children are all partially dragonseeds, same as Edmure and Sweetrobin), and besides his Whent family, also at some point, had a child with descendants of Aegon IV thru Bellegere Otherys (first Black Pearl of Braavos). So Petyr's great-grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos, possibly was Aegon IV's grandson. Thus Aegon IV is LF's great great great-grandfather thru the Bastard of Harrenhal, and something like his great great-grandfather thru second Black Pearl of Braavos, or thru her sister. For example, to Dany Aegon IV is her great great great great-grandfather. So Dany is more distantly related to Aegon IV than LF (she is his 4 times great grandchild, while LF is his 3 times great grandchild). Also after Aegon IV, his descendants and next Kings were marrying with Martell (his son Daeron), with Dayne (his grandson Maekar), with Blackwood (his great-granson Aegon V), so their Targaryen blood was becoming more and more diluted, while it's likely, that LF's dragonseed-ancestors in Braavos (that were descendants of Aegon IV) and later in Westeros were intermarrying between themselves, to keep their blood pure (same as some Targaryens, and Blackfyres). So LF has more Aegon IV's genes than Dany. Which explains his shrewd nature, and why he wants to get Iron Throne, and why he thinks, that he has a right to become King of 7K.

Though I admit, that my theory could be totally wrong.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/31/2019 at 2:33 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

No. 

In a moment when Lysa is super vulnerable and spilling her gut about the forced abortion and everything she and Littlefinger did under the sun, that would have been a good moment for her to tell him that Robert was his son especially since she is so desperate for his love before he shoves her out the Moon Door. 

Not necessarily. This could be something, which might not effect the plot, but the author wants us to wonder about. And if wee Robert is a Little Finger, the author might not want Sansa to be aware just yet. The point of Lysa's rant was to provide the big reveal that Petyr was the Big Bad in the first main conflict of ASOIAF.