A Song of "some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead"

[Lady of Mercia]

8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There have been many princes over the three hundred years of the Targaryen and Baratheon eras, not to mention the millennia of multiple kingdoms prior to the Targaryen era.

And at the time of ASOS, there were four princes in Dorne - Doran, Oberyn, Quentyn and Trystane. There's no dearth of princes in Westeros.

[The Map Guy]

This was the original quote in Cat of the Canals AFFC:

Quote

 

It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna as his fingers danced across the harp strings. The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock. Today he wore a plush purple cloak lined with vair, a striped white-and-lilac tunic, and the parti-colored breeches of a bravo, but he owned a silken cloak as well, and one made of burgundy velvet that was lined with cloth-of-gold. The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness," he had announced.

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. [...]

 

I don't know about you guys, but I think GRRM is hinting at Lyanna & Rhaegar, and the gossip of what happened to Lyanna after everything.

Quote

The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince

This is what Daenerys did after Khal Drogo's death. GRRM is comparing Lyanna and Daenerys, maybe even what Ashara did too, since she literally threw herself out of a tower.

• Lyanna: Lover dead (Rhaegar). Brother dead (Brandon). Child[ren] alive. Dead (natural).
• Ashara: Lover dead (Brandon!). Brother dead (Arthur). Stillborn. Dead (suicide).
• Daenerys: Lover dead (Drogo). Brother dead (Viserys). Stillborn. Alive (with vengeance). 

[J. Stargaryen]

People seem to forget that two princes died on the Trident that day. How about Ashara Dayne and Prince Lewyn Martell?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

People seem to forget that two princes died on the Trident that day. How about Ashara Dayne and Prince Lewyn Martell?

Oh, that Ashara! She sure seems to be getting around. All terrible jokes aside and granted, age seems to be a very subjective thing in the books, I don't think it's her. 

"I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn," Ser Arys said, "but all agree that he was a great knight."
"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a great beauty in her youth, men say." (The Soiled Knight, AFFC 13)

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

People seem to forget that two princes died on the Trident that day. How about Ashara Dayne and Prince Lewyn Martell?

I didn't forget the theory, I just prefer mine :-)

Besides, the quote provided by @Alexis-something-Rose points to Lewyn's paramour being still alive and Barristan's thoughts about Ashara lack any hint towards Lewyn, so if Ashara did have a thing for the Dornish Prince, it must have been a secret.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Personally, I think Ashara makes the most sense. She's the most historically recent and therefore the most likely to still have popular songs being circulated about her. Plus, Daeron is from the Reach, so she's at least geographically relevant to his life experiences. Daeron could just be playing fast and loose with the titles here by mislabeling Brandon, Arthur, or Ashara's kid as princes. Or, for some inexplicable reason, it could be about Ashara being such an diehard Targaryen loyalist, she killed herself when Aegon was murdered because life without the Targs just wasn't worth living. 

It's also a possible reference to Bael the Bard, but that seems like a much further reach given the wildlings (or at least Mance and Ygritte) seem a lot more interested in ancient folklore than men at the NW do, so I'm not sure where Daeron would have heard the story. Could be Helaena as well, but she lost two sons, not just one, and the loss of life seems like a much bigger detail to fudge than just a title, but who knows.

For all we know, Daeron made up a story about Naerys throwing herself off a tower after Aemon died. 

[J. Stargaryen]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:56 AM, Ygrain said:

I didn't forget the theory, I just prefer mine :-)

Besides, the quote provided by @Alexis-something-Rose points to Lewyn's paramour being still alive

and Barristan's thoughts about Ashara lack any hint towards Lewyn, so if Ashara did have a thing for the Dornish Prince, it must have been a secret.

 

I suppose that's fair.

The first objection is much flimsier than it initially appears. I mean, it might be the disqualifying piece of text some take it as. But for it to be so you have to assume that Arianne knows the truth of that secret. I'm not sure that's a safe assumption since we know she isn't really trusted with that kind of information. At least by her father. Clearly, she knows something. But then the same is true about her father's plans for Quentyn.

You have Selmy, a single POV character, thinking of a woman from Dorne who came to court with Elia Martell, who had a secret lover. And, quite separately, thinking of a man from Dorne who came to court with Elia Martell, who had a secret lover. Yet he never makes the connection. I don't see that as an obstacle to the theory. In fact, I see a familiar path appearing before me.

[J. Stargaryen]

On 3/13/2019 at 3:17 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Oh, that Ashara! She sure seems to be getting around. All terrible jokes aside and granted, age seems to be a very subjective thing in the books, I don't think it's her. 

"I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn," Ser Arys said, "but all agree that he was a great knight."
"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a great beauty in her youth, men say." (The Soiled Knight, AFFC 13)

We don't know what Arianne considers "old." I'll say this though, it wouldn't be unheard of for a beautiful young woman to be dismissive of an attractive older woman—35-40—in that way. And that's even assuming Arianne knows this information, rather than is making assumptions based off of tidbits and whispers and gossip.

The part that really stands out to me, though, is that men recall what a great beauty she was. That part certainly fits with Ashara.

[Amris]

I suppose Daeron is meant to - again - bring our attention to the Ashara-threw-herself-from-a-tower-legend.

I also suppose one or both parts of the song actually get it wrong and that she really never threw herself off the tower, regardless of the hearsay. The part about a prince - Rhaegar possibly? - may or may not be wrong.

But we are supposed to pick up on the tower-thing and notice there is something there that will play a role later.

[asongofheresy]

What if Ashara committed suicide after the deaths of Elia and her children? It would actually tie neatly to Ashara = Lemore as Ashara would "die" because her prince lives, not that he died. 

[Loge]

Has to be either Ashara or Lyanna. Ashara supposedly jumped off a tower. Not because of Rhaegar, but we don't know what the public has been told. Lyanna didn't jump, but we don't know what the official story about her death is either.

[Bael's Bastard]

7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

What if Ashara committed suicide after the deaths of Elia and her children?

It's clear from the accounts of Catelyn (AGOT: Catelyn II), Cersei (AGOT: Eddard XII), and Harwin (ASOS: Arya VIII) that they believe Ashara's alleged suicide to have occurred after the death of Ser Arthur Dayne. That would be some number of weeks after the murder of Elia and her children during the Sack of King's Landing.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

AGOT: Catelyn II

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

AGOT: Eddard XII

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly. "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea."

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie . . . and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

ASOS: Arya VIII

8 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

It would actually tie neatly to Ashara = Lemore as Ashara would "die" because her prince lives, not that he died. 

The timing of Ashara's alleged suicide has never been an issue with the theory that she is Lemore. The issue is the failure of Tyrion's POV to see in Lemore Ashara's single most remarkable feature. The feature that Catelyn's POV, the account of Harrenhal that Howland passed down to his kids, and Barristan's POV all remark on. The feature that Lemore's dark brown hair would no more disguise than Ashara's dark hair did. The feature that Tyrion's POV later observes in Sweets.

And the explanations that have been put forth for why GRRM would write Tyrion to have observed this feature, yet for his POV to have failed to remark on it, are all examples of poor writing, the likes of which GRRM has no history of using in ASOIAF.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Whilst the song is placed in the story to remind us of Ashara appearing as it does in AFFC as a prep for Barristan's reveal about Ashara having been Brandon's lover in ADWD. It is a means to remind the reader of her. Her role in the story is being drawn to an end and if you look at it from start to finish its a completed story. She was set up as possibly Jon's mum and in the end she was just a red herring, if you follow all the mentions of her this becomes clear. 

But the song is not about Ashara I'd bet the song is about Helaena who threw herself from the red keep after Lady Misery supposedly chose that night to tell her of the horrific death of her son Prince Maelor at the hands of a mob in KL. Not all songs are about romantic love and this story is a tragedy of epic proportions. She was given Spohie's choice when Blood & Cheese used the tunnels to infiltrate her apartments and then he killed Jaehaerys after she chose Maelor. And after she never recovered from that choice. Thinking her remaining two children had been secreted away by the master of whispers Larys Clubfoot she was then told her prince had been torn apart by a mob at Bitterbridge. 

Whilst the song is there to spark the reader to think of Ashara because GRRM is about to wrap up her part in the books and wants us to think about her; there are no other references to Ashara in AFFC and no POV chapters by anyone who has any reason to think of her so he needed to prick our memories somehow, but he is also published AFFC in 2005 and signed the contract for TWOIAF in 2006, meaning he was already thinking about his history of the Targaryens and had likely worked out some of the elements of things like the Dance so dropping in a song which is actually a teaser for the fate of Aegon II's queen is quite plausible, especially when her story has echo's of the main one. Larys is a stand in for Varys here and his attempt to sneak the young prince away fails miserably. And we are also introduced to a passage which goes directly into the royal chambers in the RK which is used for an assassination and I think this is foreshadowing for Myrcella's fate. 

Ashara never loved a prince, we learn that when Brandon tells us it was Stark; it can not be Ned as the two men enjoyed such camaraderie and mutual respect in AGOT, Lady Dustin has told us Brandon liked deflowering high born maidens, and Barristan frames the grief over her lovers death as having happened prior to her own and well, Ned survived the war.  There is precisely zero in the text to suggest she had any feeling for a prince.  And had GRRM wanted to tease at that in AFFC with this song he would have laid some more teasers in TWOIAF.  Singers embellish and embroidery for sure. But we have a story which perfectly fits this song and which at the time of publishing AFFC would have allowed GRRM to have his little secret, it's almost like he is foreshadowing for the world book and ultimately  F&B here. 

In addition Dareon is from the reach home of house high tower Helaena's mothers house and a song about her tragedy might well be popular here. 

[Ygrain]

Personally, I think the song is not about one particular person or event. Someone's tragic fate, perhaps Ashara's, was merely a loose inspiration for a romantic text that is nice to listen to but has next to none historical value. Its purpose is to remind the reader about they lady we know to have died in this way, just like Lyanna Mormont or Wylla Manderly's first names are a subtle reminder of the original Lyanna and Wylla. The fact that the song is placed in an Arya chapter may be important, as it is in her PoV chapter, as well, that we learn from Ned Dayne about the supposed romance between The Ned and Ashara, and just like the young Ned's version, it is definitely riddled with errors. 

[Lady of Mercia]

I'd always just assumed that if it was based on an actual person, it was a vague retelling of the Ashara rumour, with the "prince" just being a bit of embellishment.

I'd never really considered Lyanna, although everything fits, except the manner of her death. Which is still a secret (we assume), as none of the POV characters even vaguely speculate that Lyanna died during childbirth. We don't know what the "official" story is - what did Robert believe, that she'd been raped so brutally that she died? That Rhaegar killed her before the Trident, or she died of neglect or abuse after the Sack? That the KG killed her? Nobody seems to ever question the mystery around her death, so we have to assume that to the general population, there's no mystery.

The one thing we know for sure about Lyanna's death, was that it happened in a tower. Whatever Ned told Robert, what if the "unofficial" gossip is that Lyanna threw herself from the TOJ after her Prince died? Robert seems to admit that Rhaegar and Lyanna are together in the afterlife, which doesn't really imply her death was at the hands of the man she's now enjoying eternity with.

Of course there's nothing to support any of this in the text, but it just struck me while reading through this thread that Lyanna = death by tower. The problem is that George has been deliberately vague about the circumstances surrounding the entire R+L saga, so it leaves a lot of room for filling in the gaps with nonsense (like this).

[The Mother of The Others]

On 5/28/2019 at 7:48 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

The issue is the failure of Tyrion's POV to see in Lemore Ashara's single most remarkable feature.

You mean the haunting purple eyes?   Tyrion is looking at her boobs.   No really.   He's short.   When he's close enough to detect eye color, he'd be looking up at her by then at a steep angle and her undertits are blocking Tyrion's line of sight, obscuring her eyes from him.  When the two are talking from farther away he's looking at her face but can't tell from that distance what color her eyes are.

 

I think the cornerstone of Dayne significance has been expertly removed from the telling of this story.  So all we've got is a feeling of wrongness, an incomplete circuit, the Aerys vs. Conspirators era is missing the cypher key, the frieze (or rug) that ties the whole thing together and allows George's architecture to flow.  When Barristan or someone drops the bomb on us with this missing info and how it ties in with what role Daynes are taking up for the conclusion, it'll be like a helicopter lowering the final arch on top of this temple that lets us know, "oh, it's an Arby's!"   But until then?  We have no idea what we're eating.

[NonoNono]

How do people explain Lyanna’s death? Can’t officially be from childbirth.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 5/30/2019 at 9:21 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ashara never loved a prince, we learn that when Brandon tells us it was Stark; it can not be Ned as the two men enjoyed such camaraderie and mutual respect in AGOT, Lady Dustin has told us Brandon liked deflowering high born maidens, and Barristan frames the grief over her lovers death as having happened prior to her own and well, Ned survived the war.

I offered a theory to reconcile Barristan's respect for Ned vs Ned/Ashara forming a thematic parallel to Cat/Brandon here.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 6/1/2019 at 11:58 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

I offered a theory to reconcile Barristan's respect for Ned vs Ned/Ashara forming a thematic parallel to Cat/Brandon here.

That theory doesn't have Ned as the deflowering cad though. And taht is what people try to claim, that Ned deflowered Ashara leaving her with child. When Barristan having high regard for Ned contradicts that. Ned may well have had noble ideas of offering for Ashara after his brother despoiled her. We have no evidence for that from the text but sure it's a nice idea that he might do so. There is no getting round it though it was Brandon Stark who Ashara "turned to" at Harrenhall, and his death along side their daughters which Barristan believes caused her suicide. Because there is just no way he would behave the way he does around and towards Ned otherwise. Nor would he think she killed herself in part over the dead lover as Ned was very much alive. 

[Springwatch]

Regardless of what the song meant, it could be that Ashara faked her own death for the sake of baby Aegon, her prince. As a Targ loyalist it was her duty to save him, and hide him.

He's dead the same way Bran and Rickon are dead.  Officially dead. And officially, Ashara threw herself from the tower.