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A Song of "some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead"


Bael's Bastard

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Thanks so much for clarifying your views.  It helps me to learn when we can see eye to eye on things.   

As it turns out, I was wrong about Tom singing the song, unless Jenny's song is the same song, which I can't completely rule out (I think Preston Jacobs and Cantuse have tried to make the case they are).  In any case, I must have been thinking of this quote from the first time the brotherhood visited the ghost of high heart.

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So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.

 

We learn the second time they visit high heart that Tom always sing's the witch "Jenny's song."  I suppose that Jenny may very well have fallen from a tower at Summerhall, after Prince Duncan dies.  

On 2/16/2020 at 8:27 PM, Walda said:

Marrillion is probably from the Riverlands

Hmm...  If your argument is that we learn about context from the songs, then I think we should also learn about the singer's from the context.  He didn't know about Edmure's floppy fish issue, so I take this as evidence that he was not from the Riverlands.  Perhaps he was from the Reach or Westerlands.  

On 2/16/2020 at 8:27 PM, Walda said:

The songs themselves tell us of local things and ways - for instance, the Dornishman's wife is popular in places where there is a predjudice against Dornishmen, and not sung in Dorne. The wildlings of the north don't sing that song either, but Mance does. That is significant. 

Yeah.  It means he's a KG from Dorne, singing it ironically, because he twice took vows of chastity, (since broken), which means this song wasn't really objectionable to him in the past because he couldn't have a wife anyway, and because the Dornishman's wife he's talking about now is Dalla, because he is Arthur Dayne and she is his wife! (no I am not joking, but the irony is funny if I am right). 

Then again. the song also foreshadow's his death fighting the others... which is not so funny

On 2/16/2020 at 8:27 PM, Walda said:

If Dareon wrote the song himself, it might have been about Jon and Ygritte. Jon found her dying beneath Hardin's tower.

Would Dareon call Jon a prince?

 

Still, anything Arya calls stupid is probably actually important, so, why not?!

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1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

Anything's possible, I suppose.

With the stories being so similar, I have to wonder if the Dead Prince and the Lost Child are the same element. Just being described in different ways, similar to the Red Comet. 

2 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

I don't think she had a stillbirth or killed herself.  I think she's very much alive.   Most likely disguised as Gyanna Reed.

I've been thinking that the Lost Child might be the decoy killed in place of Aegon(Young Griff).
So it might make sense for Ashara(Lemore) to feel a need to protect someone she already sacrificed so much for. Either willingly or unwillingly. 

2 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

My point was that she doesn't have to be dead for the song to be about her.  

I imagine the story would be close to the truth, like maybe she just dived into the water and swam to a boat.. 

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Might have worked, but they ran afoul of the Lady of the Tower, and her oarsmaster has a Tyroshi wife.

Hmm, perhaps the connection to Tyrosh is important.

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The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. "My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?"

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On 2/18/2020 at 7:56 PM, Narsil4 said:

I imagine the story would be close to the truth, like maybe she just dived into the water and swam to a boat

It would need to be close enough for a prohet to be able to think it true.  Think Jojen's vision of Bran and Rickon's death,  

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2/16/2020 at 12:17 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

I've wondered at times if Lyanna did something like that, but then it always seems unlikely to me that she would have done that after giving birth to Jon, or been permitted to by the KG even if she had been inclined to. It seems most plausible she simply died from pregnancy issues.

On the other hand, there is no proof she ever gave birth.  And if she did, the baby most likely did not make it.  And if the baby made it, it might be little Griff.

On 2/15/2020 at 8:39 PM, Prince Rhaego said:

It's about Ashara and Rhaegar. I believe there was a love triangle between Ashara/Rhaegar/Elia ASOIAF has a lot of that too

Possible

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Theon seems to have heard an Ironborn or Northern varient of the song

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Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?

ACoK Ch.24 Theon II

Also, the tower of Mooten's castle was known as "Jonquil's Tower", and we know there are songs about her

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Their last night beneath Lord Mooton's roof is not recorded, but...as Sheepstealer beat his leathery brown wings and climbed into the dawn sky, Caraxes gave a scream that shattered every window in Jonquil's tower

The Princess and the Queen

Also, the Easternmost tower of the Eyrie is the Maiden's tower. While I suspect the towers are named for the Seven, this tower has the view of Alyssa's Tears

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Alyssa Arryn had seen her husband, her brothers, and all her children slain, and yet in life she had never shed a tear. So in death, the gods had decreed that she would know no rest until her weeping watered the black earth of the Vale, where the men she had loved were buried. Alyssa had been dead six thousand years now, and still no drop of the torrent had ever reached the valley floor far below.

AGoT Ch.40 Catelyn VII

The balcony of the Maiden tower has Sky six hundred feet below it, and we don't know how Alyssa died.  There would be a song in it, though.

There are plenty of towers with balconies (although a balcony isn't specified or necessary): Riverrun, Queenscrown, Dragonstone.

Storm's End is another interesting possibility, given the 'old powers' that built it and six times destroyed it, and the suspicious death of Cortnay Penrose. We know there are songs about it

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The songs said that Storm's End had been raised in the ancient days by Durran, the first Storm King, who had won the love of the fair Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind...his priests told him he must placate the gods by giving Elenei back to the sea...[but], the seventh castle stood defiant and Durren Godsgrief and fair Elenei dwelt there together until the end of their days

ACoK Ch.31 Catelyn III

Perhaps Elenei had a daughter that was given to the sea.

If it was a song composed by supporters of the Blacks, to cover their foul deeds, or counteract Green propaganda, Helaena Targaryen and Aegon II could be princess and prince.

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Helaena Targeryen, sister, wife, and queen to Aegon II and mother of his children, threw herself from her window in Maegor's Holdfast to die impaled upon the iron spikes that lined the dry moat below. She was but one and twenty...the whispers went, ... Rhaenyra ... had sent Ser Luthor Largent to seize Helaena with his huge rough hands and fling her from the window.

The Princess and the Queen

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I think the question is: why did GRRM put Arya hearing this song in?

The purpose seems most likely to be to remind us readers of the story of Ashara throwing herself off the tower which he had presented to us earlier.

Whether the woman in the song really is Ashara or someone else and whether the song speaks of Rhaegar or of someone else is not something GRRM wanted to reveal. (It would have made things to easy for us). So he had Arya think of 'stupid lady', 'stupid price'.

It's one of GRRM's writing tactics. Put a hint in here. Put a hint in there. Seemingly unrelated. And in storylines away from the later revelation so that the reader might not notice the hint or its relevance at first.

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22 hours ago, Amris said:

I think the question is: why did GRRM put Arya hearing this song in?

The purpose seems most likely to be to remind us readers of the story of Ashara throwing herself off the tower which he had presented to us earlier.

Also, Arya actually has a conversation about Ashara Dayne in her eight POV chapter in Storm. In fact, if you word search "Ashara" in ASoS you get four results all from that chapter.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Ashara&scope[]=asos

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Whether the woman in the song really is Ashara or someone else and whether the song speaks of Rhaegar or of someone else is not something GRRM wanted to reveal. (It would have made things to easy for us). So he had Arya think of 'stupid lady', 'stupid price'.

It's one of GRRM's writing tactics. Put a hint in here. Put a hint in there. Seemingly unrelated. And in storylines away from the later revelation so that the reader might not notice the hint or its relevance at first.

Agreed. And, if Ashara is the stupid lady then who is the stupid prince? If it's a literal prince, well... We have the two Targaryen sons, Rhaegar and Viserys. But, sons of House Martell were also styled prince. Of course, that means two princes died during the Battle of the Trident even if we usually think of Lewyn as one of the two Kingsguard who perished that day, along with Ser Jonothor Darry. Both are true.

I do not know if GRRM intended to obscure this princely fact in order to distract readers from making a connection he would hint at years later in a future book. I can see a straight line between the two points, though. I can see a cause for Lewyn's dual titles, and the effect it has had on the readers' perception of him. I can see a motive for Lewyn's characterization so far. Only time will tell if I am glimpsing a part of GRRM's design, or merely documenting my own hallucinations and delusions.

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On 6/15/2020 at 12:52 AM, Amris said:

I think the question is: why did GRRM put Arya hearing this song in?

The purpose seems most likely to be to remind us readers of the story of Ashara throwing herself off the tower which he had presented to us earlier.

Whether the woman in the song really is Ashara or someone else and whether the song speaks of Rhaegar or of someone else is not something GRRM wanted to reveal. (It would have made things to easy for us). So he had Arya think of 'stupid lady', 'stupid price'.

It's one of GRRM's writing tactics. Put a hint in here. Put a hint in there. Seemingly unrelated. And in storylines away from the later revelation so that the reader might not notice the hint or its relevance at first.

I agree that the selection of Arya to hear this is probably important, which is why in an earlier post, I mentioned that this is probably the same sad song that Rhaegar sang at Harrenhal, which maid Lyanna "sniffle."  The similarities between Arya and Lyanna are many, but this scene (whether I am right about the specific song or not) shows how they are different as well, or at least that Arya may change some of these opinions once she passes puberty. 

If I am right, it probably means that Rhaegar's song was so sad because he was foretelling his own death. I do think it was Ashara that is foretold to be falling from a tower as well, but that doesn't mean she actually did.  I mean, Rhaegar could have foreseen her falling, and then her falling happened bas a lie, not the real future, just like Jojen saw Bran and Rickon dead, but that turned out to be a fake death.   

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