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Jace, Basilissa

NFL Offseason 2019: Gettleman Browns all over the Giants

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6 minutes ago, briantw said:

Really, nothing the Giants have done has made sense.  They had the second pick overall in a solid QB draft and a QB who was old and awful.  They also had arguably the league's best receiver, a solid WR2, and a promising young TE on a rookie deal.

Then, instead of taking a QB at second overall, they took a fucking RB.  Good RBs are a dime a dozen.  I also think that a good scheme can make any RB look good (see: Chiefs, Rams), and thus having an elite RB is a luxury, not something you should ever waste a first round pick on.,

There's a lot of intelligence in this post mixed with a bit of sensationalism at the end. 

Taking Barkley at 2 was a massive mistake, for all the reasons you pointed out except the very last one. It is too much to say that a 1st round pick shouldn't be spent on a RB EVAR!!!

It's just too much.

You're right. You're right about basically everything. But you're wrong too because of that little bit there. Yes, you can find a decent RB under your couch. But you cannot find Saquan Barkley or Ezekiel Elliot or Adrian Peterson under your couch. Kareem Hunt... Kareem Hunt.... Kareem Hunt

Sure. You can find a top-tier runner (who is not actually a top 5 RB, anyway) in the later rounds or even UDFA if we recall Arian Foster. But let's remember how the draft works. Nobody knew that Kareem Hunt was so good. Or that Arian Foster was. They quite simply didn't know. The teams that picked 'em up didn't know. John Dorsey wasn't sitting in KC on day two of the draft polishing his palms muttering evilly "and I'll take Hunt this round and THEY'LL ALL BOW!!! HAHAHHAHHAHAHAA MUAAAHAHHHAAAHAA!!!" He thought he'd be pretty good or could be good the way GM's think every fucking player they pick up could be and stumbled on a woman kicking all star.

But anyway, what I'm trying to drive at is it's just a bridge too far to say you can never draft a RB in the 1st round. Really, think about that for a second. You're saying that if Saquan Barkley with all of his hype last year had fallen to say... the Patriots. At 31. Forget Michael. Saquan Barkley is there for the taking at 31, this transcendent college talent and you just lost the Superbowl by one score with James White as your leading rusher... but you just SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EvAR!!!! Take a RB in the 1st? C'mon man!

Now I will agree, it's insanity to take one in the top 5. I can't imagine wanting one in the top 10 even. But after that? A potentially unique player? It depends on the team. If you're the Bills and you're constantly fluctuating between 5 and 9 wins and your roster is plus or minus mediocre? Probably shouldn't take a RB. Probably some bigger holes that you need to fill with a player more likely to be better than anything you'll find later in his position group. But what if you're like the Steelers right now if Antonio Brown hadn't gone all schizo-titso? That roster was pretty much good to go. Could always use some more pass rush or secondary of course. But that's a superbowl contending type roster which had a rough year and has a little bit of higher pick than usual. But because it's the first round! They're just compelled to take that 4th best OLB or 3rd best Corner instead of the guy who gets compared (without hyperbole) to Edgerrin James?

No. I find this extreme sentiment altogether unagreeable.

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1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

 

There's a lot of intelligence in this post mixed with a bit of sensationalism at the end. 

Taking Barkley at 2 was a massive mistake, for all the reasons you pointed out except the very last one. It is too much to say that a 1st round pick shouldn't be spent on a RB EVAR!!!

It's just too much.

You're right. You're right about basically everything. But you're wrong too because of that little bit there. Yes, you can find a decent RB under your couch. But you cannot find Saquan Barkley or Ezekiel Elliot or Adrian Peterson under your couch. Kareem Hunt... Kareem Hunt.... Kareem Hunt

Sure. You can find a top-tier runner (who is not actually a top 5 RB, anyway) in the later rounds or even UDFA if we recall Arian Foster. But let's remember how the draft works. Nobody knew that Kareem Hunt was so good. Or that Arian Foster was. They quite simply didn't know. The teams that picked 'em up didn't know. John Dorsey wasn't sitting in KC on day two of the draft polishing his palms muttering evilly "and I'll take Hunt this round and THEY'LL ALL BOW!!! HAHAHHAHHAHAHAA MUAAAHAHHHAAAHAA!!!" He thought he'd be pretty good or could be good the way GM's think every fucking player they pick up could be and stumbled on a woman kicking all star.

But anyway, what I'm trying to drive at is it's just a bridge too far to say you can never draft a RB in the 1st round. Really, think about that for a second. You're saying that if Saquan Barkley with all of his hype last year had fallen to say... the Patriots. At 31. Forget Michael. Saquan Barkley is there for the taking at 31, this transcendent college talent and you just lost the Superbowl by one score with James White as your leading rusher... but you just SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EvAR!!!! Take a RB in the 1st? C'mon man!

Now I will agree, it's insanity to take one in the top 5. I can't imagine wanting one in the top 10 even. But after that? A potentially unique player? It depends on the team. If you're the Bills and you're constantly fluctuating between 5 and 9 wins and your roster is plus or minus mediocre? Probably shouldn't take a RB. Probably some bigger holes that you need to fill with a player more likely to be better than anything you'll find later in his position group. But what if you're like the Steelers right now if Antonio Brown hadn't gone all schizo-titso? That roster was pretty much good to go. Could always use some more pass rush or secondary of course. But that's a superbowl contending type roster which had a rough year and has a little bit of higher pick than usual. But because it's the first round! They're just compelled to take that 4th best OLB or 3rd best Corner instead of the guy who gets compared (without hyperbole) to Edgerrin James?

No. I find this extreme sentiment altogether unagreeable.

Yeah, what I probably should have said was that you shouldn't take anything other than a generational back in the first round, and even if you do, you better be set at QB and several other key positions,, so probably not in the top 10 to 15.

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Earl Thomas and Mark Ingram to the Ravens doesn't do much for me. I think Thomas on a good team is a nice addition if you get him at a modest price, but that's not the case. Approaching 30 and some really bad leg injuries in his recent past, I'm not impressed. I think there's three things you need to look for when signing someone: are they over/under 30, knee/leg injuries, and character. Thomas checks about all 3 of those boxes in a bad way. Sure, some might think he's admirable for not practicing till he got a contract, but he seems like a jackass like many of the other Seahawks over the past 6-7 years. As for Ingram, eh, not impressed either. He played well in a good system that had Brees and then Kamara for the last two years. He will not do the same in Baltimore. 

The Ravens have lost Suggs, Za'Darious Smith, Weddle, and Mosley. On offense, they lost John Smith and Crabtree. That leaves them with Willie Snead as their lead receiver? Ingram et. al. for their backs? Don't know who their tight end is. This will all be lead by Lamar Jackson who I am most certainly not convinced of. I think the Ravens will be ass this year. 

Browns definitely look like the favorite for the AFC North this year. I see the Bengals signed an O-lineman that they're getting crushed for. I know fuck all about him but I think we can already count them out this year, along with Baltimore. My guess is it will be between Steelers and Browns for the division crown. Hopefully we can grab one of the Devin inside backers in the draft. 

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4 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Taking Barkley at 2 was a massive mistake, for all the reasons you pointed out except the very last one. It is too much to say that a 1st round pick shouldn't be spent on a RB EVAR!!!

 

And even though Barkley looks quite legit for his position so far I do think this will prove a mistake in the long run and there's a lot of motivated reasoning from Giants fans wanting to believe in the move because it's too painful not to.  

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Triskele said:

And even though Barkley looks quite legit for his position so far I do think this will prove a mistake in the long run and there's a lot of motivated reasoning from Giants fans wanting to believe in the move because it's too painful not to.  

As a Cleveland sports fan, this is basically a way of life.  :lol:

Hopefully the Browns change that.

Edited by briantw

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5 minutes ago, briantw said:

As a Cleveland sports fan, this is basically a way of life.  :lol:

Hopefully the Browns change that.

I'd have figured that y'all were something closer to the opposite:  refusing to believe because to allow one's self hope has proven too painful.  

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11 minutes ago, briantw said:

As a Cleveland sports fan, this is basically a way of life.  :lol:

Hopefully the Browns change that.

You all had the best basketball player in the world, and won a championship, and your baseball team has been good-great in recent years. 

Try being a Cincinnati sports fan. Neither the Bengals or Reds have won a playoff game/series since the 90’s. The 19 fucking 90’s!

I think probably only Buffalo is a more miserable sports town. 

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Posted (edited)

https://mobile.twitter.com/Griffter10/status/1105903320558960641?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1105903320558960641&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%231105903320558960641

I’m bad at the interweb. Anyways, nothing like putting tons of mileage on Barkley’s legs during his early years for shits and giggles. 

Edited by Ramsay B.

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I felt strongly and feel strongly that Saquon is a generational back.  I thought every QB had question marks.  I liked the pick and still do.

Drafts are won in the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds.  They are lost in the 1st.  Saquon was the safe pick and the right pick.  Especially, if the Giants pick up Josh Rosen in the coming fire sale, which in their shoes I would.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Nictarion said:

You all had the best basketball player in the world, and won a championship, and your baseball team has been good-great in recent years. 

Try being a Cincinnati sports fan. Neither the Bengals or Reds have won a playoff game/series since the 90’s. The 19 fucking 90’s!

I think probably only Buffalo is a more miserable sports town. 

*snort*

In my lifetime, I have been abandoned by the San Diego Rockets (to Houston), the San Diego Clippers (to LA), and the San Diego Chargers (also to LA).

DURING MY LIFETIME
San Diego Rockets - 4 seasons, no titles, one playoff appearance, eliminated in first round
San Diego Clippers - 6 seasons, no titles, no playoff appearances
San Diego Chargers - 53 seasons, no titles, 15 playoff appearances, 1 Super Bowl appearance (lost in blowout)
San Diego Padres - 49 seasons, no titles, 5 playoff appearances, 2 World Series appearances, 1 GAME total won in those two series

I've seen the Reds win three World Series in that timeframe.  Once in person (attended game 4 in Oakland in 1990).

Thankfully, I went to college in Berkeley and can add....

California Golden Bears Football - 54 seasons, zero Rose Bowl appearances in my lifetime.
California Golden Bears Men's basketball - 54 seasons, never advanced past Sweet Sixteen in my lifetime.

Edited by Bronn Stone

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bronn Stone said:

I felt strongly and feel strongly that Saquon is a generational back.  I thought every QB had question marks.  I liked the pick and still do.

Drafts are won in the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds.  They are lost in the 1st.  Saquon was the safe pick and the right pick.  Especially, if the Giants pick up Josh Rosen in the coming fire sale, which in their shoes I would.

Eh...I think he may be a generational back, but you're basically going to waste his prime on that roster, and potentially run him into the ground before the team is good again.  

And yeah, those QBs did have their question marks, but when your only viable QB is a washed up Eli Manning, you can't waste second overall on a RB when there are at least three or four QBs on the board.  If they had drafted Darnold, chances are they wouldn't have traded Beckham, and they could have drafted Nick Chubb, who was more efficient than Barkley and PFF's highest-rated RB last year, with their second rounder.  Or Guice, who I think was the second best RB prospect in last year's draft.  Or Kerryon, who had a fantastic rookie season in his own right.  

The drop from any of those RBs (well, we don't know with Guice yet, obviously, since we haven't seen him in the NFL) to Barkley isn't remarkably steep.  Yeah, maybe they weren't "sure things" like Barkley was, but when you're picking two, give me a top QB prospect, an elite edge rusher, or a left tackle.  A top-tier CB could be taken there as well in this pass-happy league, especially since CB tends to fall off a cliff after the first round.

I was ecstatic to draft Barkley in my dynasty league, but no way did I want any part of the Browns drafting him first overall.  I could have lived with it at four, assuming we took a QB first, but I think Ward and Chubb (Brad, not Nick) were clearly better choices there than Barkley would have been, and that holds up when you see that the Browns got Nick Chubb in the second and then Kareem Hunt for free because he's an alcoholic.  

Edited by briantw

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19 minutes ago, briantw said:

Eh...I think he may be a generational back, but you're basically going to waste his prime on that roster, and potentially run him into the ground before the team is good again.  

<trimmed>

The jury is out on Darnold, down on Josh Allen, the Giants are likely to pick up Rosen for nothing AND still have Barkley and Lamar Jackson can't throw.

The Giants will probably be able to trade down in the 2nd for a later pick and more AND then send the other 2nd for Josh Rosen.  Then they got the best or second best QB from 2018 and their RB.  Sure Chubb played well in limited time, but the Browns had more around him.

You are also counting on them taking not the first, not the second but the third RB after Barkley.  Pure hindsight.

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I know we’re not having a sports pain conversation without the Minnesotans getting involved. No state’s sports are more cursed than ours!

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Golden Tate to the Giants.

I can't figure out what the fuck the Giants are doing.

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The notion that a generational back is something meaningful in today's NFL is amusing. At this point, it's like saying he's a generational Right Guard. 

Barkley is very, very good. He also is going to likely be out of the league before he's 30. At best you get 8 years of a player who is the best in the league at a position that is one of the most fungible. It's a bad choice. Even worse, the Giants have said that they're going to commit to small ball tactics of running, defense, and field position - something that doesn't work even when you have great players, and will only make Barkley suffer running against 8+ men in the box. 

Another way to say it is that teams don't win championships with star running backs any more. Arguably the last time any team did was 19 years ago with Faulk and the Rams, and that's arguable because they had a whole hell of a lot more. It just isn't something you need, and if you have it it doesn't give you wins. 

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4 hours ago, Bronn Stone said:

*snort*

In my lifetime, I have been abandoned by the San Diego Rockets (to Houston), the San Diego Clippers (to LA), and the San Diego Chargers (also to LA).

DURING MY LIFETIME
San Diego Rockets - 4 seasons, no titles, one playoff appearance, eliminated in first round
San Diego Clippers - 6 seasons, no titles, no playoff appearances
San Diego Chargers - 53 seasons, no titles, 15 playoff appearances, 1 Super Bowl appearance (lost in blowout)
San Diego Padres - 49 seasons, no titles, 5 playoff appearances, 2 World Series appearances, 1 GAME total won in those two series

I've seen the Reds win three World Series in that timeframe.  Once in person (attended game 4 in Oakland in 1990).

Thankfully, I went to college in Berkeley and can add....

California Golden Bears Football - 54 seasons, zero Rose Bowl appearances in my lifetime.
California Golden Bears Men's basketball - 54 seasons, never advanced past Sweet Sixteen in my lifetime.

Yeah, but you live in a love place like San Diego.  :P

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1 hour ago, Bronn Stone said:

The jury is out on Darnold, down on Josh Allen, the Giants are likely to pick up Rosen for nothing AND still have Barkley and Lamar Jackson can't throw.

The Giants will probably be able to trade down in the 2nd for a later pick and more AND then send the other 2nd for Josh Rosen.  Then they got the best or second best QB from 2018 and their RB.  Sure Chubb played well in limited time, but the Browns had more around him.

You are also counting on them taking not the first, not the second but the third RB after Barkley.  Pure hindsight.

No way do I want Arizona's leftovers.... getting Rosen isn't great cause you gotta give up to get him. The Giants need to not move in the draft and take Haskins at 6 if he's available, if he's not just draft the best guy on your board and build the team up in draft. The Giants are projected to have 90-102mil in free cap space next season, so if you get Haskins at 6 and keep all your picks, AWESOME, if he's not available you're all in on 2020 draft.

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

The notion that a generational back is something meaningful in today's NFL is amusing. At this point, it's like saying he's a generational Right Guard. 

Barkley is very, very good. He also is going to likely be out of the league before he's 30. At best you get 8 years of a player who is the best in the league at a position that is one of the most fungible. It's a bad choice. Even worse, the Giants have said that they're going to commit to small ball tactics of running, defense, and field position - something that doesn't work even when you have great players, and will only make Barkley suffer running against 8+ men in the box. 

Another way to say it is that teams don't win championships with star running backs any more. Arguably the last time any team did was 19 years ago with Faulk and the Rams, and that's arguable because they had a whole hell of a lot more. It just isn't something you need, and if you have it it doesn't give you wins. 

And we just saw that if you rely on a top 5 RB and he can't go, you get pasted in the Owl.

Drafting a running back high is entirely situational. Barkley was the best prospect since Gurley, maybe even since Peterson, but it was a huge mistake for the Giants to take him second overall. There are situations where you can take a guy that high, like the Cowboys did with Elliot, but the two situations were entirely different. When the Cowboys did it, they had the best QB in the league to have not won an Owl, the best O-Line in football that had just made an above average RB lead the league in rushing, above average skill players at WR and TE and a defense that was decent enough to win. Given all that, you can justify taking a very good, complete RB prospect in the top 5. But the Giants were in an entirely different situation. They had a washed QB,a bad O-Line and a below average defense. All that considered, you either have to take one of the top QB prospects or trade back to fill out your depleted roster. Hell, they could have just traded back a few slots and still gotten one of the top QB prospect plus acquired maybe another first rounder this year. The Giants made a huge mistake, and there's a good chance this decision could set them back years. As others have said there were plenty of good RBs to be had in the second round, or they could have gotten an O-lineman and gone RB in the third. What they did instead was make a win now move when their roster screamed rebuild time. 

Also, the one knock on Barkley in college was that he wasn't great between the tackles. Why the hell would build your team around an interior running game when that knowledge is available to you?

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33 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

No way do I want Arizona's leftovers.... getting Rosen isn't great cause you gotta give up to get him. The Giants need to not move in the draft and take Haskins at 6 if he's available, if he's not just draft the best guy on your board and build the team up in draft. The Giants are projected to have 90-102mil in free cap space next season, so if you get Haskins at 6 and keep all your picks, AWESOME, if he's not available you're all in on 2020 draft.

Rosen still has high upside. He was bad last year, but the Cardinals were awful all around. If you can get him for a second then you do it in a heart beat. That would be like the only way to salvage last year's mistakes. 

Also, I've seen a bit of reporting that the Giants might pass on Haskins. I have no idea how good he is or not, but if they don't get a QB this year then their goal needs to be to go 0-16 in 2019.

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4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And we just saw that if you rely on a top 5 RB and he can't go, you get pasted in the Owl.

I kinda don't think that's the big reason that the Rams lost

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