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Jace, Basilissa

NFL Offseason 2019: Gettleman Browns all over the Giants

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46 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

 

Girls! Girls!

Settle down or I'll make you hold hands for the rest of the day,

I was hoping for the Jace paddling

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13 hours ago, dbunting said:

Did you see one of the girls was 38 and the other 58, came out yesterday I think. Sounds like he will fight to the end to not have to admit guilt or let anyone see it.

I wouldn’t call women that age girls, but they’re still sex slaves by all accounts. And of course he’ll fight with all his power to suppress the tape. If it gets out he’s finished.

Also, F you for going 15/16 and I’m glad it was my alma mater that denied you a perfect first day!

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Rob Gronkowski Announces Retirement

This has to be an unsurprising shock.  Obviously, Gronk's retirement was a foregone conclusion even as it seemed to drag on since the Superbowl.  But Even still, there was always the chance that Brady would coax another season out of the probably the most incredible TE who ever lived (there are legit arguments to be made on who the greatest TE was- its either Gonzalez due to longevity of Gronk due to Time on the Field- that's another discussion).  

But Football is a merciless sport and its already taken its toll on Gronk; he has been hurt numerous times over the course of his career.  And his injuries have been a constant sore spot between him and the team; his family has been all but hostile towards Belichick.  

When he was on the field, there was nothing like Gronk.  He was bigger than most of the LBs who tried to cover him and was as fast and as quick as many of the DBs who tried in vain to stop him.  He was faster than anyone his size had any right to be; could block like a fiend and was as strong as the most DEs.  He had better hands than any TE who ever lived and could juke like a WRs.  He also touted the party line when it came to his own injuries, something that towards the end seemed to chaff.  I saw him play many many times and he was an absolute force of nature; he was so important and so vital to what was going on on the field, that he could (and did) simply take a game open.  Or required to much attention that everyone else was open.  He was so ludicrously hard to defend, that he began to get "Shaq Treatment" wherein the refs would see how dominant he was and just assume he was cheating; neglecting to see how over-matched his hapless defenders were at all times.  

The last catch he made in the NFL won a Superbowl.  Not too shabby.  

But if there was one play that will epitomize Gronk's uetter wrecking ball style it will be this one: Gronk catching, wrecking, outrunning and just dominating an over-matched D.  Later in that same game, Gronk just threw Sergio Brown into next week.  

I am stopping short of saying I am sad he's gone.  As stated, football is brutal and if Gronk can make half the money while experiencing 1/10th the injuries, there is no way to fault him for that.  Whether its wrestling or movies or being paid to party, I hope he gets everything he deserves and none of the downside.  He gave me and my friends a near decade of great joy.  

See you in Canton, Gronk.  

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14 hours ago, briantw said:

Finished with .69 touchdowns a game.  Legend.

It works both for the regular season and with playoff games included. 69 is his zone.

Sad day for the Church of Gronk.

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On 3/22/2019 at 9:14 AM, Tywin et al. said:

I wouldn’t call women that age girls, but they’re still sex slaves by all accounts. And of course he’ll fight with all his power to suppress the tape. If it gets out he’s finished.

Also, F you for going 15/16 and I’m glad it was my alma mater that denied you a perfect first day!

I saw that Wisconsin and was like Damn, of all the teams why Tywins!

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Gronk finishes with 521/7,761/79. Nice numbers, and in particular the touchdowns. Has the three rings as well. I think the debate for best TE ever is a little closer than what a lot of the media have been saying over the past day, though. 

The first two that come to mind are Tony G and Gates. Tony G finished with 1,325/15,127/111 :o Fuck.... 17 year career, and only 2 missed games in that timeframe. It's not a secret that he was a health freak and kept amazing care of his body. The numbers show it. The one obvious stat is no SB ring.

As for Gates, he finished with 955/11,841/116. 16 year career, not sure if retired after last season or not. Like TG, also no SB rings. 

Gronk's career in 9 years has great numbers when you consider the amount of games he missed. Throw in 3 rings, a unique personality, and big game moments, I can't disagree with anyone calling him the best ever. I think that very good numbers with the combination of SB rings and big game moments trumps a long career with amazing numbers and 0 SB rings. 

I would rank:

1. Gronk

2. Tony G

3. Gates

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I'm not altogether sure that Antonio Gates is the greatest TE in Chargers history.

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Yeah the longevity plays a role when it comes to stats as always. When you look at per game numbers is where you see they are pretty close. Pretty good comparison too since they all overlapped eachother in time frame. Not like one of them put up these stats 30 years ago. Gates is well behind both of them on a per game basis. 

All these stats from pro football reference and all rounded up.

                         Recs per game        Yards per game        TD per game

Gonzalez              4.91                             56.1                        .411

Gates                   4.05                              50.2                       .492

Gronk                   4.53                              68.4                      .687 

On a game by game basis it's hard to argue against Gronk and if I had to choose one in their prime to be on my team in the Super Bowl when it counts I'm choosing Gronk every time.  

          

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Posted (edited)

@dbunting Agreed on Gronk being the guy I'm picking for a SB in their prime. And yeah, there's other guys you can pull out of history but these three felt the most comparable since 2000 (TG started in 1997 but played till 2013). Since 2000, I would say that Jimmy Graham would come in at 4th with comparable numbers to Gronk (611/7,436/71) and the same amount of seasons. Gronk would surpass him in all categories if it wasn't for injury, though JG has had some injuries as well. JG hasn't had the successive years of dominance that Gronk showed. He burned out after he left the Saints, and wasn't in the same offense. To circle back to your point, yes, in a single game I'm going with Gronk. Matchup nightmare in all facets.

Edited by l2 0 5 5

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, l2 0 5 5 said:

@dbunting Agreed on Gronk being the guy I'm picking for a SB in their prime. And yeah, there's other guys you can pull out of history but these three felt the most comparable since 2000 (TG started in 1997 but played till 2013). Since 2000, I would say that Jimmy Graham would come in at 4th with comparable numbers to Gronk (611/7,436/71) and the same amount of seasons. Gronk would surpass him in all categories if it wasn't for injury, though JG has had some injuries as well. JG hasn't had the successive years of dominance that Gronk showed. He burned out after he left the Saints, and wasn't in the same offense. To circle back to your point, yes, in a single game I'm going with Gronk. Matchup nightmare in all facets.

Personally, I think it was the injuries that burned Graham out, not leaving the Saints.  If it were the offense, other TEs would have produced at a semi-elite level in the same offense, but as a fantasy football player it's been underwhelming as fuck ever since. 

Edited by briantw

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1 hour ago, l2 0 5 5 said:

Gronk's career in 9 years has great numbers when you consider the amount of games he missed. Throw in 3 rings, a unique personality, and big game moments, I can't disagree with anyone calling him the best ever. I think that very good numbers with the combination of SB rings and big game moments trumps a long career with amazing numbers and 0 SB rings. 

I would rank:

1. Gronk

2. Tony G

3. Gates

If anyone said that Tony G was the TE GOAT I really would not argue; longevity is one thing, but overall excellence over that period is something else.

The numbers quoted by dbunting are pretty indicative of Gronk's dominance.  

However, from 2011 onward, if Gronk ws on the field, he completely altered the game.  As good as Gonzalez was, he was never the complete focus of the opposing team.  Gronk had to be accounted for and an entire game plan had to be developed around him.  And while Gonzalez was always a part of the opposing team's game planning, he was never the complete focus that Gronk was.  If you did not account for Gonzalez, he had a great game; if you did not account for Gronk, you lost.  

However, there are two additional factors that require our attention: first, rings.  As good as Tony was, he never even made it to a Superbowl, much less won one.  In fact, Gonzalez did not have his first playoff WIN until 2012.  BUT.... I think Barry Sanders is the greatest running back who ever lived and he never saw a Superbowl either... but he played for Detroit, so ... And Second... injuries are a thing; you can't just ignore them; Gronk missed halves of seasons with injuries and his attendance in the playoffs was never guaranteed.  That has to count against him.  

But with all of that said, it comes down to the question: how much t=do you value longevity and will you take consistently very good over X seasons or unstoppably great over half as many?  However you view that is who you think is the TE GOAT.  

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On 3/22/2019 at 3:21 AM, dbunting said:

I was hoping for the Jace paddling

If you're going to beg for it you might get eventually, but you probably won't get it soon.  That's my impression of her.

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I was reading through the various tributes to Gronkowski and the thing that struck me was that he was drafted 42nd (i.e. in the second round of the draft). According to wiki, he wasn't even the first TE to be drafted (that would be Jermaine Gresham at 21st) nor the first player drafted by New England (that was Devin McCourty at 27th). Does anyone remember the story behind this? I guess it was because missed the previous year with a back injury, but was that really enough for another GOAT contender to fall into the hands of Darth Hoodie? I mean, the injuries were undoubtedly a problem, but he was a better player than most even when playing through them and nearly unstoppable when healthy. And unlike with Brady, it was obvious that he'd be good.

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43 minutes ago, Altherion said:

I was reading through the various tributes to Gronkowski and the thing that struck me was that he was drafted 42nd (i.e. in the second round of the draft). According to wiki, he wasn't even the first TE to be drafted (that would be Jermaine Gresham at 21st) nor the first player drafted by New England (that was Devin McCourty at 27th). Does anyone remember the story behind this? I guess it was because missed the previous year with a back injury, but was that really enough for another GOAT contender to fall into the hands of Darth Hoodie? I mean, the injuries were undoubtedly a problem, but he was a better player than most even when playing through them and nearly unstoppable when healthy. And unlike with Brady, it was obvious that he'd be good.

It was the back; he missed his entire final year in Arizona because of it.  Belichick thought Gronk would be there in the second and was prepared to take him with that pick.  Gronk was an excellent blocker as well, so when asked about it years later, Belichick said that they were all well aware of Gronk's upside, stating that the Pats were not spending a 2nd round pick on a blocking tight end.  

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Gronk also had Brady basically his entire career; it'd be interesting to see the splits of Gronk w/Brady and Gronk with anyone else (which IIRC wasn't a whole lot, but whatever). I don't think that really discounts him that much, mind you, as he was good enough to actually stick around with the Pats through multiple contracts - and that says a whole lot about a player's abilities too. 

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2 hours ago, Rockroi said:

However, there are two additional factors that require our attention: first, rings.  As good as Tony was, he never even made it to a Superbowl, much less won one.  In fact, Gonzalez did not have his first playoff WIN until 2012.  BUT.... I think Barry Sanders is the greatest running back who ever lived and he never saw a Superbowl either... but he played for Detroit, so ... And Second... injuries are a thing; you can't just ignore them; Gronk missed halves of seasons with injuries and his attendance in the playoffs was never guaranteed.  That has to count against him.  

But with all of that said, it comes down to the question: how much t=do you value longevity and will you take consistently very good over X seasons or unstoppably great over half as many?  However you view that is who you think is the TE GOAT.  

I've had similar "discussions" about E Smith vs Sanders. If I had to choose one of them, Smith or Sanders in their prime in the SB who would I choose. I choose Smith every time. Not because he was the greatest but because he was more dependable and showed up in big games, whereas Sanders could get you 217 yards, or maybe he gets -1 yard.  Being a Cowboys fan living in Detroit area I always get shouted down when talking about it, damn near burned at the stake.

So if their stats are similar and one has rings......

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Posted (edited)

Tony Gonzalez redefined the position of tight end, but he is not the G.O.A.T. Gonzalez’s raw stats, longevity and value to the game cannot be understated, but those attributes fail in comparison to Gronk’s complete dominance and championship pedigree. There are a number of statistics we can point to, but the one I’m about to break down probably best highlights Gronk’s singular greatness.

Today I heard multiple sources compare Gronk’s and Gonzalez’s average yards per target. The difference is staggering, and not just because of the two. Gonzalez average yards gain per target is 7.5. That’s an incredible number, and it’s not far off the averages of the game’s greatest receivers. Jerry Rice’s numbers cannot be accounted for entirely, because they did not track targets for a decent chunk of his career. But roughly speaking, he averaged around 8.5 yards per target. That’s similar to Terrell Owens, who average just over 8.5 yards per target. Randy Moss, the game’s greatest deep threat, averaged 8.8 yards per target, though that number is a bit iffy compared to others because of style of play. Calvin Johnson, who is probably the most ideal prototypical WR ever, was best among this group at 8.9 yards per attempt.

The aforementioned greats played in a different era. Rule changes have made the game easier on receivers, so let’s look at Gronk’s piers. OBJ is averaging 8.8 yards per target. So is Antonio Brown. DeAndre Hopkins, last year’s best receiver, is only averaging 8.3 yards per target for his career. The best active wide receiver with regards to yards per target is Julio Jones. He’s averaging 9.8 for his career.

By comparison to the elite receivers both now and in the past, Gronk averages 9.9 yards per target. I’m sure there are guys with higher raw averages, but I don’t think there are any that are also considered among the greats. And that doesn’t even factor in that Gronk might be the greatest blocking tight end, as well as the most versatile. In my eyes there’s no debate; Gronk is the greatest tight end ever. 

Edited by Tywin et al.

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NFL will now allow reviews for called and uncalled Pass Interference.

Quote

 

Pass-interference penalties -- both offensive and defensive -- will be reviewable during the 2019 season.

At the annual league meeting on Tuesday, the owners ratified a proposal that will allow coaches to challenge pass-interference penalties, including ones that go uncalled on the field. Additionally, in the final two minutes of the half, the replay assistant can initiate reviews of called and uncalled pass-interference penalties. It's a one-year rule that will be evaluated next year.

 

I'm a little surprised.  Making penalties reviewable really makes the refs jobs harder, and potentially allows more people to be pissed off when a call is reviewed and still doesn't go your way.  In addition, it means more time under the hood at the end of games, which isn't ideal for excitement.

The refs really bulloxed up the NFCCG, which I guess is what was needed to change things.  We'll see how this goes, I'm still unsure whether I like this idea or not. 

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They also fucked up the AFC game with that phantom roughing the passer call on Brady.  Although sounds like that is still unreviewable.

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