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Do You Think Sam Will Forge His Chain?


Three-Fingered Pete

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8 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

This shows up a lot and I never understood how leaving Gilly in Oldtown is more dangerous than sailing past Euron, across half the world, and right into the teeth of Slavers Bay...with one ship.

Because it's not about what is more dangerous, but about if you would dump a Wildling girl alone in a big city: Sam is not going with Marwyn, so if the Cinnamon Wind is truly leaving ad hoc, Gilly would have to be left alone in the city of Oldtown. And as she isn't exactly good in surviving in a city, they (=Marwyn) would have to get her a room to stay etc. And so far I simply don't see Marwyn as someone who would care about such a thing, while the crew of the Cinnamon Wind would most likely disagree with you about what is more dangerous for Gilly and the baby, as she could easily get lost in Oldtown. And I don't know what option would appear more horrifying to Gilly herself.

And the Citadel is not a hostel where you can take your family with you.

So while it sadly is possible that we see something as stupid as in the abomination, other scenarios are more likely:

a) Gilly gets lost in Oldtown

and

b) Gilly stays on the Cinnamon Wind,

with a slight possibility for everything-goes-well or as-well-as-it-could-get-in-Martin-world, aka

c) they dump Gilly in an inn, Sam finds her and gets her on a journey to his mother

and

d) they travel together over land because of the sack.

And of course there is also the possibility of her dying during the sack if she stays.

At this moment, all options are possible, so take your pick.

12 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

That could also eat up about five hundred pages. I kind of have a bad feeling on this since Sam's journey down was pretty uneventful. Something tells me his journey back won't be so easy.

I'm with you here and wouldn't be surprised if he really ends up as one of Euron's captives, as you and others have suggested. To this moment Sam was spared true personal horrors other characters had to endure. I'm not confident about it staying that way (that's why I think he and Gilly will get separated, and he will blame himself).

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1 hour ago, Morte said:

I'm with you here and wouldn't be surprised if he really ends up as one of Euron's captives, as you and others have suggested. To this moment Sam was spared true personal horrors other characters had to endure. I'm not confident about it staying that way (that's why I think he and Gilly will get separated, and he will blame himself).

 

Sam has had his share of torment, but that resulted mostly from his meek temperament. Now that he has started finding his legs, I think GRRM has some horror in store for him. I mean, he lived in relative privation at the Wall compared to Horn Hill and he still has his (baby) fat. You would think that the rigors of life at the Wall (Westerosi boot camp, for all intents and purposes) would have hardened him up already, steward or not.

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4 hours ago, Morte said:

Because it's not about what is more dangerous, but about if you would dump a Wildling girl alone in a big city: Sam is not going with Marwyn, so if the Cinnamon Wind is truly leaving ad hoc, Gilly would have to be left alone in the city of Oldtown. And as she isn't exactly good in surviving in a city, they (=Marwyn) would have to get her a room to stay etc. And so far I simply don't see Marwyn as someone who would care about such a thing, while the crew of the Cinnamon Wind would most likely disagree with you about what is more dangerous for Gilly and the baby, as she could easily get lost in Oldtown. And I don't know what option would appear more horrifying to Gilly herself.

And the Citadel is not a hostel where you can take your family with you.

So while it sadly is possible that we see something as stupid as in the abomination, other scenarios are more likely:

a) Gilly gets lost in Oldtown

and

b) Gilly stays on the Cinnamon Wind,

with a slight possibility for everything-goes-well or as-well-as-it-could-get-in-Martin-world, aka

c) they dump Gilly in an inn, Sam finds her and gets her on a journey to his mother

and

d) they travel together over land because of the sack.

And of course there is also the possibility of her dying during the sack if she stays.

At this moment, all options are possible, so take your pick.

I'm with you here and wouldn't be surprised if he really ends up as one of Euron's captives, as you and others have suggested. To this moment Sam was spared true personal horrors other characters had to endure. I'm not confident about it staying that way (that's why I think he and Gilly will get separated, and he will blame himself).

What??? The goal is to see Gilly and the babe alive. So it absolutely matters which is more dangerous. You're seriously trying to compare Quentyn's entire arc, to asking for directions...and it's not even close.

They wouldn't, just stop...

 

Just to lay it out logistically:

A.) Sail from Oldtown, avoiding Euron's fleet, sail across the Dornish coast, keep going up and across the Stepstones all the while avoiding pirates and the Golden Company and Aurane. Probably have to stop at Lys for water. Then on to Volantis which is teetering on the verge of a slave revolt. Then sail past Valyria which we know from Tyrion's chapters is stormy and hellish. After that though it is an easy slide past the Yunkish blockade and into Slavers bay.

B.) "Follow the Honeywine until you see the giant green sphinxes." 

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16 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

They wouldn't, just stop...

Just laid out the possibilities, pick one - and hopefully in the next book we will see which one GRRM did pick.

29 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Just to lay it out logistically: 

A.) Sail from Oldtown, avoiding Euron's fleet, sail across the Dornish coast, keep going up and across the Stepstones all the while avoiding pirates and the Golden Company and Aurane. Probably have to stop at Lys for water. Then on to Volantis which is teetering on the verge of a slave revolt. Then sail past Valyria which we know from Tyrion's chapters is stormy and hellish. After that though it is an easy slide past the Yunkish blockade and into Slavers bay.

B.) "Follow the Honeywine until you see the giant green sphinxes."  

Yes, although we wouldn't see anything from the journey in A, and we don't know which route they would sail from Oldtown directly to Meereen.

However: If the people in this books would think their actions though, about 80% of drama would not have happened, so: :dunno:

Beside, there are two other things we have to consider: Maybe Marwyn would even want her to go with them to have an eye witness with him. And: would Gilly leave the Cinnamon Wind to wander Oldtown in search for Sam/let herself be dumped in an inn to wait for Sam to find her, or would she rather stay with people she knows?

There are no 100% here. Have to wait and see.

3 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Sam has had his share of torment, but that resulted mostly from his meek temperament. Now that he has started finding his legs, I think GRRM has some horror in store for him. I mean, he lived in relative privation at the Wall compared to Horn Hill and he still has his (baby) fat. You would think that the rigors of life at the Wall (Westerosi boot camp, for all intents and purposes) would have hardened him up already, steward or not.

Yes, GRRM is not finished with Sam's education in torment yet. It all went too well for him, even on his journey back to the wall, even in Braavos, and at the Citadel.

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3 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Sam has had his share of torment, but that resulted mostly from his meek temperament. Now that he has started finding his legs, I think GRRM has some horror in store for him. I mean, he lived in relative privation at the Wall compared to Horn Hill and he still has his (baby) fat. You would think that the rigors of life at the Wall (Westerosi boot camp, for all intents and purposes) would have hardened him up already, steward or not.

I agree with much of this, especially the baby fat part. The one thing I think differently about is when he will lose it... and lose it he does on the Ssinn-amon Wind, amirite? :leer: I mean his works on the ship seems to be doing him some good.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Gilly can stay as long as she likes." She poked Sam in the belly with a finger. "She does not eat so much as some."

"I'm not so fat as I was before," Sam said defensively. The passage south had seen to that. All those watches, and nothing to eat but fruit and fish. Summer Islanders loved fruit and fish.

Sam followed the archers across the plank, but once ashore they parted company and went their separate ways. He hoped he still remembered the way to the Citadel. Oldtown was a maze, and he had no time for getting lost.

 

Gonna talk GRRM stories here. If you prefer not read anything that is not of the ASOIAF series, just skip this secret eye...
 

Spoiler

 

In Dreamsongs, and also storied about in Armageddon Rag, GRRM says that he was always a chubby kid but when he moved away to college and to Chicago and Dubuque, his mind really opened up and his individuality blossomed. He also talks of losing a lot of weight then and of buying new sports coats to wear. This detail at that moment in his life seems important to him. GRRM has often said that even though Tyrion is his fave, Bran is the hardest and most magical to write, but that Samwell is most like him in real life.

Babble over. Carry on.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree with much of this, especially the baby fat part. The one thing I think differently about is when he will lose it... and lose it he does on the Ssinn-amon Wind, amirite? :leer: I mean his works on the ship seems to be doing him some good.

 

Oh, sure. Compared to the fatty, calorie filled food Sam's getting at the Wall, the Cinnamon Wind food is like a health spa diet. Really, he manages to lose weight standing watch on deck, but traipsing around burning calories in the freezing cold at and north of the Wall, he doesn't lose a pound? What are they feeding them up there? (lotsa sausage, I know; save it for the naughty thread) The Others should just wait for the Watch to die of heart failure.

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After the series concludes, maybe he'll finish up studies,  since there's only time left for one semester of classes in the books.    Which is why I'm thinking Sam's pivotal role in events will be when the war comes to Oldtown, not when he returns to the wall as their maester.    Birds can be sent to inform the Watch of any huge revelations he uncovers in the university library, or perhaps Danny can be sent flying north from the Citadel after she has a chapter or two on the west coast to say hi to Lann Ville and Citadel characters for that discussion about what the Sphinx is for.  Also, I foresee a policy showdown between Tarlies, with Sam having to stand up to Military Dad to proove there's something more important than the crown to attend to.   Also, Whatever.

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 10:33 AM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I keep thinking (without a good reason) that GRRM is going to majorly alter what happened compared to that thing we don't discuss. The possibilities are insane. Could he end up inadvertently going to Essos with Marwyn on the Cinnamon Wind? The Euron idea is awesome - I could see him keeping Sam to further his own goals. Could a Hightower introduction via the glass candles be a thing potentially? Could he meet the FM in the Citadel? 

 

If George goes in a traditional course and continues to favor Sam's lucky streak. It would be a chance to reveal the significance of the glass candles finally.

George could totally mind pork us and have Jaqen H'ghar kill and replace Euron during the sack of the Citadel. Just like that, the Ironborn belong to the Faceless Men. He wouldn't even have to show it happening, just suggest it. All the "everyone is a secret someone" people would love it.

 

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11 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

If George goes in a traditional course and continues to favor Sam's lucky streak. It would be a chance to reveal the significance of the glass candles finally.

George could totally mind pork us and have Jaqen H'ghar kill and replace Euron during the sack of the Citadel. Just like that, the Ironborn belong to the Faceless Men. He wouldn't even have to show it happening, just suggest it. All the "everyone is a secret someone" people would love it.

 

Not just the glass candles but also something about the Others and the broken horn.  Restricted information and books that Marwyn or Euron may want removed from the Citadel.   The FM may be there to ensure that Sam gets hold of this information.  There is a certain menace implied when Marwyn tells the FM to 'take care of Sam'.   But can he kill Sam if the FM "knows this man"?  Ending up in Euron's hands is a particularly frightening prospect.

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1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

I'm not following this part.

Arya observes the FM in council when they are deciding who will take a contract to assassinate someone.  Two of them excuse themselves because they know the man.   Not exactly sure how they know the man.  Except that when Arya is travelling to Braavos; the sailors all make sure that she knows their names.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

One of the other acolytes stood across the room with a flagon of dark red wine. She had the water. Whenever one of the servants wished to drink, he would raise his eyes or crook a finger, and one or both of them would come and fill his cup. But mostly they stood, waiting on looks that never came. I am carved of stone, she reminded herself. I am a statue, like the Sealords that stand along the Canal of the Heroes. The water was heavy, but her arms were strong.
The priests used the language of Braavos, though once for several minutes three spoke heatedly in High Valyrian. The girl understood the words, mostly, but they spoke in soft voices, and she could not always hear. "I know this man," she did hear a priest with the face of a plague victim say. "I know this man," the fat fellow echoed, as she was pouring for him. But the handsome man said, "I will give this man the gift, I know him not." Later the squinter said the same thing, of someone else.

 

 
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19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Arya observes the FM in council when they are deciding who will take a contract to assassinate someone.  Two of them excuse themselves because they know the man.   Not exactly sure how they know the man.  Except that when Arya is travelling to Braavos; the sailors all make sure that she knows their names.

 

Well, I suppose that would depend on whether it is a rule or a personal preference. A policy like that could be inconvenient if someone is in a hurry and you have to tell them "Sorry, everyone available right now knows that person." And Jaqen H'ghar certainly knew (or at least knew of) the people he killed for Arya and had no compunctions.

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2 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Well, I suppose that would depend on whether it is a rule or a personal preference. A policy like that could be inconvenient if someone is in a hurry and you have to tell them "Sorry, everyone available right now knows that person." And Jaqen H'ghar certainly knew (or at least knew of) the people he killed for Arya and had no compunctions.

I'm not clear on that either.  But it seems to be rule for some reason.  Arya doesn't exactly take out a contract.  He says he owes her three lives and she can choose to clear the debt owing the gods.  It doesn't seem like the same thing.  

This is Pate and the Alchemist just before the FM kills him:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

"As you wish." The alchemist pulled his hood down.
He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man's face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized. "I do not know you."
"Nor I you."

 

Pate only knows the FM as the Alchemist and the FM take the guise of the Stranger.  That seems to be a condition for taking life.

Sam has been introduced to the FM in Marwyn's quarters:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"My thanks." There was something about the pale, soft youth that he misliked, but he did not want to seem discourteous, so he added, "My name's not Slayer, truly. I'm Sam. Samwell Tarly."
"I'm Pate," the other said, "like the pig boy."

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not clear on that either.  But it seems to be rule for some reason.  Arya doesn't exactly take out a contract.  He says he owes her three lives and she can choose to clear the debt owing the gods.  It doesn't seem like the same thing. 

 

I'm pretty sure that no one put out a contract on Pate the nobody either, but it sure seemed necessary to someone that he (or someone like him) was replaced, as his killer is wearing his face instead of disappearing into the night after obtaining the key.

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23 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

I'm pretty sure that no one put out a contract on Pate the nobody either, but it sure seemed necessary to someone that he (or someone like him) was replaced, as his killer is wearing his face instead of disappearing into the night after obtaining the key.

Yes it's murky.  All we know is that the FM now has has a set of keys that somebody wants for some reason.  Sounds like a contract to me.

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I don't think there is enough time for him to complete his chain, although I think 2 or 3 links is possible.  

His story is likely to involve finding something important in the fight vs. the Others, and having some role in the Battle of Oldtown (vs. Euron).

On 3/15/2019 at 8:42 AM, Morte said:

Yes, although we wouldn't see anything from the journey in A, and we don't know which route they would sail from Oldtown directly to Meereen.

However: If the people in this books would think their actions though, about 80% of drama would not have happened, so: :dunno:

Beside, there are two other things we have to consider: Maybe Marwyn would even want her to go with them to have an eye witness with him. And: would Gilly leave the Cinnamon Wind to wander Oldtown in search for Sam/let herself be dumped in an inn to wait for Sam to find her, or would she rather stay with people she knows?

There are no 100% here. Have to wait and see.

I don't see Gilly going to Slavers Bay with Marwyn.  She seems to be in love with Sam, and her remaining in Oldtown is another complication for Sam to have to deal with.  Which GRRM loves to do. 

Storywise, there seems to be little point in her going.  I doubt she would be taken seriously as a reliable witness; if anything Marwyn can tell Daenerys of Sam's story.  She seems more useful for story advancement in Oldtown.

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3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I don't see Gilly going to Slavers Bay with Marwyn.  She seems to be in love with Sam, and her remaining in Oldtown is another complication for Sam to have to deal with.  Which GRRM loves to do. 

Storywise, there seems to be little point in her going.  I doubt she would be taken seriously as a reliable witness; if anything Marwyn can tell Daenerys of Sam's story.  She seems more useful for story advancement in Oldtown.

I don't know. As Sam will spent a lot of his time in the Citadel with the other novices and acolytes, Gilly would just be a little "nuisance" he has to care about, something to make him feel a little bit guilty for not spending enough time with her. I simply don't see her running around the Citadel helping Sam with books ( :rolleyes: ). But if Sam keeps his lucky streak this could also be all he will see from obstacles for him.

But of course the sack of Oldtown and maybe plundering would bring both in peril and would give us the dreaded travelogue to Horn Hill and back to the wall.

So: We'll see. It's just one of many possibilities for Gilly.

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