Jump to content

Do You Think Sam Will Forge His Chain?


Three-Fingered Pete

Recommended Posts

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 7:56 PM, Platypus Rex said:

No.  Sam is dead.  He was put to bed by a faceless assassin.

 

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 8:34 AM, Platypus Rex said:

It is a misinterpretation of the prophesy of the Ghost of High Heart.  Which actually refers to "Fake Pate" (Alchemist/Jaquen) standing on the bridge to the Isle of Ravens, wearing his new face -- that of the murdered Sam.

 

Something just occurred to me. This would be a fundamental shift of GRRM's narrative style to date. Could you explain how this would work narratively since that would mean one of our POV characters is dead, but still active in the story? Would we get POV chapters of this FM playing Sam or would we have a first in the form of a character that we have known before suddenly becoming a secondary antagonist only known to the reader?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/13/2019 at 7:56 PM, Platypus Rex said:

No.  Sam is dead.  He was put to bed by a faceless assassin.

 

On 3/17/2019 at 8:34 AM, Platypus Rex said:

It is a misinterpretation of the prophesy of the Ghost of High Heart.  Which actually refers to "Fake Pate" (Alchemist/Jaquen) standing on the bridge to the Isle of Ravens, wearing his new face -- that of the murdered Sam.

 

It is possible that Pate/Jaquen has replaced Sam but there isn't much to support the idea at this point.  We don't even know what Pate's mission is or if he is a rogue pursuing his own agenda.   Assassins don't kill everyone they come in contact with.  Leo Tyrell, Alleras and Marwyn are all still alive after all.  Meanwhile, as Pate, he is below the notice of most maesters and archmaester and he has a key that can open any door in the Citadel.  I'm looking forward to learning more about what he is doing there but I doubt that he has changed his plan, whatever it is, to kill Sam. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, White Ravens said:

It is possible that Pate/Jaquen has replaced Sam but there isn't much to support the idea at this point.  We don't even know what Pate's mission is or if he is a rogue pursuing his own agenda.   Assassins don't kill everyone they come in contact with.  Leo Tyrell, Alleras and Marwyn are all still alive after all.  Meanwhile, as Pate, he is below the notice of most maesters and archmaester and he has a key that can open any door in the Citadel.  I'm looking forward to learning more about what he is doing there but I doubt that he has changed his plan, whatever it is, to kill Sam. 

Marwyn, Alleras and Fake Pate are in league with each other.  Because obviously, Marwyn would not allow Real Pate to be present at a secret meeting.  

This cabal somehow knew that Sam was coming, whether due to glass candles, allies on the Cinnamon Wind, or something else.  Whatever their plans, they have had time to anticipate.

Pate was present while Sam was extensively interrogated.  This sets him up to have the knowledge necessary to impersonate Sam.  The text really emphasizes that Sam totally spills his guts, which is not really necessary if they all are going to have time to get to know each other gradually.

Marwyn wants to silence Sam … to make sure he does not talk to the Maesters (which is what Aemon asked Sam to do, as well as warning him not to be riddled by the Sphynx).  I don't think Marwyn's going to leave that to chance.

When they prepare to put Sam to bed, they send/take him to a deserted tower on an island.  The perfect place for a murder.

With Sam out of the way, Marvyn, a blood mage, now has Mance's kingsblood baby, Aemon's kingsblood corpse, and Aemon's books of lore.  I guess they can now wake the stone dragon, or otherwise do whatever evil magicians do with king's blood.  But wherever Marwyn is going, and whatever Marwyn is doing, his 2 friends will probably go with him. 

No Sam chapters appear in the second half of dance.

No Sam chapters have been reliably rumored to occur among those in Winds. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Something just occurred to me. This would be a fundamental shift of GRRM's narrative style to date. Could you explain how this would work narratively since that would mean one of our POV characters is dead, but still active in the story? Would we get POV chapters of this FM playing Sam or would we have a first in the form of a character that we have known before suddenly becoming a secondary antagonist only known to the reader?

The simplest solution would be for Sam to only appear in the POVs of other characters from now on.   I suppose.  But I just make theories.  I don't try to make them work out narratively, because that's the author's job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

The simplest solution would be for Sam to only appear in the POVs of other characters from now on.   I suppose.  But I just make theories.  I don't try to make them work out narratively, because that's the author's job.

 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

No Sam chapters appear in the second half of dance.

No Samwell chapters appear in Dance with Dragons.

Sam's last PoV was in Feast for Crows.

Remember that cavil?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The simplest solution would be for Sam to only appear in the POVs of other characters from now on.   I suppose.  But I just make theories.  I don't try to make them work out narratively, because that's the author's job.

 

Fair enough. It's just that you posted with such conviction that I thought you might have worked it out. We do have a half-template for the situation already in Catelyn. I doubt that we'll get POVs from her in the future, but she'll probably show up in other's. With her, however, everyone knows the score.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/17/2019 at 9:34 AM, Platypus Rex said:

It is a misinterpretation of the prophesy of the Ghost of High Heart.  Which actually refers to "Fake Pate" (Alchemist/Jaquen) standing on the bridge to the Isle of Ravens, wearing his new face -- that of the murdered Sam.

I see no reason to believe any of this.

22 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Marwyn, Alleras and Fake Pate are in league with each other.  Because obviously, Marwyn would not allow Real Pate to be present at a secret meeting.  

This cabal somehow knew that Sam was coming, whether due to glass candles, allies on the Cinnamon Wind, or something else.  Whatever their plans, they have had time to anticipate

That they are working together is quite obvious.  They all seem to have an interest in magical mysteries and the like, and Marwyn's interest in the subject is hardly a secret.  Pate is known to Alleras, at least, and given his takeover by Jaqen, his abilities and study habits have probably improved substantially.  No real reason not to include him.

They knew Sam was coming (Marwyn said as much), and likely regard him as a potential ally, given his membership in the NW and his experiences there.

22 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Marwyn wants to silence Sam … to make sure he does not talk to the Maesters (which is what Aemon asked Sam to do, as well as warning him not to be riddled by the Sphynx).  I don't think Marwyn's going to leave that to chance.

Marwyn wants Sam to keep his mouth shut, because he worries that if Sam says too much, the other maesters at the Citadel will silence him.  He has no worries that anything Sam says will be considered valuable to the Citadel maesters.

22 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

With Sam out of the way, Marvyn, a blood mage, now has Mance's kingsblood baby, Aemon's kingsblood corpse, and Aemon's books of lore.  I guess they can now wake the stone dragon, or otherwise do whatever evil magicians do with king's blood.  But wherever Marwyn is going, and whatever Marwyn is doing, his 2 friends will probably go with him. 

They do't really need Sam's death for any of that. Much simpler tojust ignore him and let him blunder about the Citadel cluelessly.  Babies die all the time, so arranging for Mance's baby to die (even assuming they know it is his) shouldn't be difficult, and Sam isn't going to be keeping close track of Aemon's corpse or the books he brought with him once he gets there.  Not that I think any of what you suggest is true.  I think Marwyn is doing exactly what he said: making speed for Slaver's Bay to join Daenerys.

22 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

No Sam chapters appear in the second half of dance.

No Sam chapters have been reliably rumored to occur among those in Winds. 

So?  Sansa doesn't appear at all in Dance either.  And both Bran and Davos are absent from the second half of Dance as well (all their chapters are in the first half).  Neither has been confirmed for Winds, but I fully expect both of them to appear.  

It is likely that the opening chapters off Bran, Davos, and Samwell are all spoilery, for some reason or another.  Sam's could include a  major discovery, or Euron's attack on Oldtown, for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

So?  Sansa doesn't appear at all in Dance either.  And both Bran and Davos are absent from the second half of Dance as well (all their chapters are in the first half).  Neither has been confirmed for Winds, but I fully expect both of them to appear.  

You are arguing against each point I make, like it was supposed to be absolute proof, standing alone.  If that's how you're going to be, you're just going to have to wait for WINDS to see if I guessed correctly.

Comparing Sam to Sansa is silly.  Sansa's last chapter did not end on a cliffhanger with her apparently about to be offed by a faceless man.  And we can stop worrying about Sansa now.  Her next POV chapter has indeed appeared.  (Yes, Sansa HAS been confirmed for WINDS).

GRRM told a French newspaper that WINDS would have 13 POVs.  8 of those are now confirmed.  Sansa is one of those 8, but Bran and Dany are  not.  If you are sure Bran, and Dany, will appear, that brings us to10.  And that does not even consider Jaime, Brienne, Cersei, Melisandre, Asha, Davos, Hotah, Jon Con, and Jon Snow, only 3 of whom we now have room for,   We are fast running out of room for Sam.  At what point are you going to start to get worried about him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

True, but not relevant to my argument.    What is relevant is the second half, where there could have been a Samwell chapter, but wasn't.

The bolding of your text is made by me.

Yes, martin could have written a Sam chapter in Dance with Dragons --- but martin didn't.

I am asking, your argument is that Samwell is dead based on the there is no Samwell chapter in DwD?

Thanks.

________________

Part two of chitter chatter.

Why do posters ignore the below quote? Sure, it does not say the Silence has been sunk only that some ship displaying Euron's crow's eye banner has been sunk.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V    "Who would be so mad as to raid this close to Oldtown?"     Xhondo pointed at a half-sunken longship in the shallows. The remnants of a banner drooped from her stern, smoke-stained and ragged. The charge was one Sam had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows. "Whose banner is that?" Sam asked. Xhondo only shrugged./

It is pretty clear to me that Euron tried and failed to get past boom that Ser Gunthor is in charge of.

The Iron Born are reavers, rapers and plunders. Hit and run. How are they going to hold a metropolitan Westeros city?

Hell, every ship the Iron Born capture they have to put an iron born man aboard to captain plus iron born men to keep the crew in line.

Every little isle Euron takes he leaves men and ships behind.

What say I take a look at DwD the Iron Suitor. How many ships does Euron have? Vic set sail from the Shields with 93 of the 100 that had once made up the Iron Fleet.

Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor    Fifty-four, Victarion thought sourly when they woke him, and she sails alone. Silently he cursed the Storm God for his malice, his rage a black stone in his belly. Where are my ships?    He had set sail from the Shields with ninety-three, of the hundred that had once made up the Iron Fleet, a fleet belonging not to a single lord but to the Seastone Chair itself, captained and crewed by men from all the islands. Ships smaller than the great war dromonds of the green lands, aye, but thrice the size of any common longship, with deep hulls and savage rams, fit to meet the king's own fleets in battle./

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Why do posters ignore the below quote? Sure, it does not say the Silence has been sunk only that some ship displaying Euron's crow's eye banner has been sunk.

 

That battle was in Whispering Sound, two days sail from Oldtown. When the Cinnamon Wind shows up at the boom chain, there is no mention of any carnage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/17/2019 at 3:10 PM, Morte said:

But I'm still not sure if Euron is such a important piece in the overall game, or if he is just a catalyst for other events but himself will fail and vanish quicker then we all think. In this case him trying to sack and plunder Oldtown could fail epically.

Yeah, Euron's success has been so quick and easy so far that he's due for one of the rather terminal roadblocks that GRRM likes to send his characters's way.

I think his role is more likely to be another type of Renly (or Robb) promising much but not delivering and ultimately sinking fast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

That battle was in Whispering Sound, two days sail from Oldtown. When the Cinnamon Wind shows up at the boom chain, there is no mention of any carnage.

Thanks. Your opening post was about Sam so I will zip my lip on further Euron chatter. Unless my fancy gets tickled again. :mellow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Thanks. Your opening post was about Sam so I will zip my lip on further Euron chatter. Unless my fancy gets tickled again. :mellow:

 

Euron is fair game here since the two characters are in proximity and most readers believe both are about to do something provocative. I was just addressing your point about Euron already attacking Oldtown and failing. Many readers are hoping that the Citadel is a prime target for Euron for whatever reason, myself included, since it would give his rather reckless seeming campaign some kind of relational backbone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...