Do You Think Sam Will Forge His Chain?

[Nevets]

1 minute ago, Morte said:

I don't know. As Sam will spent a lot of his time in the Citadel with the other novices and acolytes, Gilly would just be a little "nuisance" he has to care about, something to make him feel a little bit guilty for not spending enough time with her.

Well, as I pointed out, GRRM does like to make his major characters' lives as complicated and miserable as possible, and this could do the trick.  And I just can't see any real payoff for her going to Meereen.

And the sack of Oldtown could easily bring her or both of them into peril and liven the story up that way.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't see him forging more than a couple of links. He will do that, find out a couple of important information and Alleras will continue teaching him to use the bow because he promised Jon he would continue to work on it.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes it's murky.  All we know is that the FM now has has a set of keys that somebody wants for some reason.  Sounds like a contract to me.

 

Well, there is certainly an agenda there, I think we all can agree on that. I really like how GRRM bookended that little plotline. With the exception of AGoT (for obvious reasons), AFfC has the only prologue not preceded by other events to frame its place in the story.

 

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

His story is likely to involve finding something important in the fight vs. the Others, and having some role in the Battle of Oldtown (vs. Euron).

 

I can't tell you how much I hope Oldtown goes all Archimedes on his ass and smacks him bad. Something needs to slow him down. That wouldn't be GRRM's style, but one can hope.

 

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I don't see Gilly going to Slavers Bay with Marwyn.  She seems to be in love with Sam, and her remaining in Oldtown is another complication for Sam to have to deal with.  Which GRRM loves to do. 

Storywise, there seems to be little point in her going.  I doubt she would be taken seriously as a reliable witness; if anything Marwyn can tell Daenerys of Sam's story.  She seems more useful for story advancement in Oldtown.

 

I really have no idea what's going to happen to Gilly. At the moment I can't recall if the Horn Hill idea was shot down or not by Jon and Sam. The only thing that Gilly's presence in Meereen can do that I can see is to give Dany the knowledge of another train of refugees (the Wildlings) to add to her ragtag band. At least this one can fight.

[LindsayLohan]

2 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Well, there is certainly an agenda there, I think we all can agree on that. I really like how GRRM bookended that little plotline. With the exception of AGoT (for obvious reasons), AFfC has the only prologue not preceded by other events to frame its place in the story.

 

 

I can't tell you how much I hope Oldtown goes all Archimedes on his ass and smacks him bad. Something needs to slow him down. That wouldn't be GRRM's style, but one can hope.

 

 

I really have no idea what's going to happen to Gilly. At the moment I can't recall if the Horn Hill idea was shot down or not by Jon and Sam. The only thing that Gilly's presence in Meereen can do that I can see is to give Dany the knowledge of another train of refugees (the Wildlings) to add to her ragtag band. At least this one can fight.

Jon told Sam he could send Gilly on to Horn Hill once he reached Oldtown. I'm not sure what Sam will do, though.

[Morte]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Well, as I pointed out, GRRM does like to make his major characters' lives as complicated and miserable as possible, and this could do the trick.  And I just can't see any real payoff for her going to Meereen.

And the sack of Oldtown could easily bring her or both of them into peril and liven the story up that way.

Might be. It's just that I think it would make Sam's life more miserable if Gilly would vanish with Marwyn. Her being there makes it much easier for Sam to be brave and handle situations.

She is just a minor character, so her role both in Meereen or with Sam would not be a prominent one: In Meereen she would be an eye witness and, as @Three-Fingered Pete pointed out - would give informations about the group around Mother Mole, but we don't know if this informations are even needed or if Dany & Co. would not stumble across them anyway. With Sam she would continue to be the catalyst for him getting sh*t done and move his arse (pardon my French).

I'm not dogmatic here, all possibilities are welcome.

6 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I can't tell you how much I hope Oldtown goes all Archimedes on his ass and smacks him bad. Something needs to slow him down. That wouldn't be GRRM's style, but one can hope.

Well, the city will not go down without a fight, and it would be fun to see the Maesters actually being of some use in such a situation.

6 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Well, there is certainly an agenda there, I think we all can agree on that. I really like how GRRM bookended that little plotline. With the exception of AGoT (for obvious reasons), AFfC has the only prologue not preceded by other events to frame its place in the story.

Concerning the FM: Do we know if Euron did pay the price for his brothers demise already (if it truly were FM he hired)? Or does he have an open depth with them? They may be in Oldtown for more than one reason...

[Aline de Gavrillac]

Sam will get an honorary chain.  Whatever that's worth.  Actually taking the time to study and forge a legit chain is not in the foreseeable future.  It will take too long.  Sam will run after Gillie instead.  This is a tale of people abandoning their duties to follow their hearts and the disaster that creates.  Sam will get an honorary chain for being a Tarly but he walks away with little to nothing when it comes to useful knowledge.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 hours ago, Morte said:

Well, the city will not go down without a fight, and it would be fun to see the Maesters actually being of some use in such a situation.

 

The pyromancers were the star of the show on the Blackwater, so I'm hoping for some seriously awesome Rube Goldberg crap out of Oldtown.

 

4 hours ago, Morte said:

Concerning the FM: Do we know if Euron did pay the price for his brothers demise already (if it truly were FM he hired)? Or does he have an open depth with them? They may be in Oldtown for more than one reason...

 

If memory serves, the facts surrounding Balon's death are murky at best. It could have been an accident, the storm was severe. Euron could have done it himself, but that would be kinslaying, plus he had to be rather lucky to show up right at the perfect time for a huge storm to come along and that he somehow knew that Balon would be out in it, alone and vulnerable. Or he could have hired a Faceless Man to do it, but we know the cost would be extravagant, especially to kill a "king".

Pulling a theory out of my nether-regions: Euron has access to arcane people and objects. He has bragged about having the wind at his beck and call. What if the storm wasn't natural? What if it was an instrument to kinslay without getting Euron's hands dirty? Given his nature, plausible deniability would be all Euron needs to say  to any accusations and not feel that he is lying or culpable.

 

2 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sam will get an honorary chain.  Whatever that's worth.  Actually taking the time to study and forge a legit chain is not in the foreseeable future.  It will take too long.  Sam will run after Gillie instead.  This is a tale of people abandoning their duties to follow their hearts and the disaster that creates.  Sam will get an honorary chain for being a Tarly but he walks away with little to nothing when it comes to useful knowledge.

 

I wasn't aware that the Citadel gave out honorary degrees.

I see that as a possibility; a boring one unfortunately. That would be an awful long trip down for nothing.

 

[Morte]

50 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

The pyromancers were the star of the show on the Blackwater, so I'm hoping for some seriously awesome Rube Goldberg crap out of Oldtown.

If we don't get some Greek fire and pyr automaton, and at least two or three interesting war machines out of the Citadel, I will be seriously disappointed  - it would however illustrated the name "grey sheep" quiet well.

54 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

If memory serves, the facts surrounding Balon's death are murky at best. It could have been an accident, the storm was severe. Euron could have done it himself, but that would be kinslaying, plus he had to be rather lucky to show up right at the perfect time for a huge storm to come along and that he somehow knew that Balon would be out in it, alone and vulnerable. Or he could have hired a Faceless Man to do it, but we know the cost would be extravagant, especially to kill a "king".

Pulling a theory out of my nether-regions: Euron has access to arcane people and objects. He has bragged about having the wind at his beck and call. What if the storm wasn't natural? What if it was an instrument to kinslay without getting Euron's hands dirty? Given his nature, plausible deniability would be all Euron needs to say  to any accusations and not feel that he is lying or culpable.

Good summery. If he hired the FM and did not pay they would be more than pissed, surely. One wonder what they would think about killing Balon with Warlock-magic? Maybe we will get some insight on all this if Winds will be released.

57 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I wasn't aware that the Citadel gave out honorary degrees.

I see that as a possibility; a boring one unfortunately. That would be an awful long trip down for nothing.

One could imagine something like emergency-chains because of Euron's sack of the city. It would be very futile and frustrating for Sam, that's for sure.

But I'm still not sure if Euron is such a important piece in the overall game, or if he is just a catalyst for other events but himself will fail and vanish quicker then we all think. In this case him trying to sack and plunder Oldtown could fail epically.

[The Mother of The Others]

Never liked ideas of Euron hiring Faceless.  He's right there.  If you hire FM you'd be somewhere else when the hit goes down, for the alibi.   This is more like he's rubbing people's faces in it, so why the hell hire it out to FM for extra money.   The use of magic winds to kill I like as it would qualify for that vision of a crow with seaweed being present on the bridge, a magical killer presence.   I tink he has 3rd eye combat awareness to see distant movements of his foes, thus always knows where to be.  That applies to knowing Balon would walk the open air bridge during that fateful hour.

As for Sam, there may be no more maesters Order left to hand out chains after all this.   They've been up to no good somehow.  Sam might help come up with a new regime over at the University.

[Platypus Rex]

10 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Never liked ideas of Euron hiring Faceless.  He's right there.  If you hire FM you'd be somewhere else when the hit goes down, for the alibi.   

It is a misinterpretation of the prophesy of the Ghost of High Heart.  Which actually refers to "Fake Pate" (Alchemist/Jaquen) standing on the bridge to the Isle of Ravens, wearing his new face -- that of the murdered Sam.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

40 minutes ago, Morte said:

If he hired the FM and did not pay they would be more than pissed, surely.

 

I don't think even Euron is ballsy enough to cross an assassin's guild that can get close to you by impersonating anybody, unless he can see them for what they are (what's going on under that patch?).

 

43 minutes ago, Morte said:

But I'm still not sure if Euron is such a important piece in the overall game, or if he is just a catalyst for other events but himself will fail and vanish quicker then we all think. In this case him trying to sack and plunder Oldtown could fail epically.

 

If that was so, he'd just be a charismatic nuisance. He holds too much unknown power to be written off so soon, unless he makes a fatal error. This is ASoIaF after all. He may fail to take Oldtown, at least completely, but that won't stop him.

 

36 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Never liked ideas of Euron hiring Faceless.  He's right there.  If you hire FM you'd be somewhere else when the hit goes down, for the alibi.   This is more like he's rubbing people's faces in it, so why the hell hire it out to FM for extra money.   The use of magic winds to kill I like as it would qualify for that vision of a crow with seaweed being present on the bridge, a magical killer presence.   I tink he has 3rd eye combat awareness to see distant movements of his foes, thus always knows where to be.  That applies to knowing Balon would walk the open air bridge during that fateful hour.

 

This would fit my slim theory.

[Clegane'sPup]

10 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

If memory serves, the facts surrounding Balon's death are murky at best.

I agree.  Only because I tend to think of Euron as a juiced up megalomaniac, in other words Euron has delusions of grandeur, much like an alcoholic or dope fiend.

-----------------------

Sumbody splain how the Iron Born led by Urine manages to invade and hold Oldtown. Consider Sam's thought about when the Cinnamon Wind tries to enter. Ummmm, I dunna know but does there seem to be a boom blocking the waterway?

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V   At length Ser Gunthor reemerged and gave the signal for the chain to be opened so the Cinnamon Wind could slip through the boom to dock./

Edit:   Before the Cinnamon Wind managed to get through the boom the below quote took place.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V    "Who would be so mad as to raid this close to Oldtown?"     Xhondo pointed at a half-sunken longship in the shallows. The remnants of a banner drooped from her stern, smoke-stained and ragged. The charge was one Sam had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows. "Whose banner is that?" Sam asked. Xhondo only shrugged. /

 

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sumbody splain how the Iron Born led by Urine manages to invade and hold Oldtown. Consider Sam's thought about when the Cinnamon Wind tries to enter. Ummmm, I dunna know but does there seem to be a boom blocking the waterway?

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V   At length Ser Gunthor reemerged and gave the signal for the chain to be opened so the Cinnamon Wind could slip through the boom to dock./

Edit:   Before the Cinnamon Wind managed to get through the boom the below quote took place.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V    "Who would be so mad as to raid this close to Oldtown?"     Xhondo pointed at a half-sunken longship in the shallows. The remnants of a banner drooped from her stern, smoke-stained and ragged. The charge was one Sam had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows. "Whose banner is that?" Sam asked. Xhondo only shrugged. /

 

Euron seems to be the guy who succeeds doing things people don't expect.

 

What was that you said before? Oh, yeah:

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 6:12 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Ahhhhhhhh, never mind. Let martin write for himself.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 3/15/2019 at 10:46 PM, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

George could totally mind pork us and have Jaqen H'ghar kill and replace Euron during the sack of the Citadel. Just like that, the Ironborn belong to the Faceless Men. He wouldn't even have to show it happening, just suggest it. All the "everyone is a secret someone" people would love it.

 

The possibilities with that....

I just wonder though - reckon Balon being supposedly assassinated by the FM would prevent them taking Eurons face/attacking Euron? He must have paid for that - right? Seems the FM have an ulterior motive at the Citadel - if not, who would be potentially funding that venture? and why?

Also, if an FM does get hold of Eurons face, if Euron has the ability to skinchange in to a Kraken, would that FM also be able to do the same?

We know they are about - those Krakens...

Quote

"And krakens off the Broken Arm, pulling under crippled galleys," said Valena. "The blood draws them to the surface, our maester claims. 

TWOW- Arianne I

Whose side would the FM be on? The side of the living or the dead? Or neither...

Seems more likely they are there for a glass candle, but part of me wonders if they are waiting for Euron to do whatever weird magical shit he is about to do...

[Three-Fingered Pete]

30 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I just wonder though - reckon Balon being supposedly assassinated by the FM would prevent them taking Eurons face/attacking Euron? He must have paid for that - right? Seems the FM have an ulterior motive at the Citadel - if not, who would be potentially funding that venture? and why?

 

I personally don't think Euron and the FM have any connections. Jaqen H'ghar was in Westeros long before anything began (getting arrested for who-knows-what apparently). Then he shows up hundreds of miles away from where we last see him... or this is a different FM who Jaqen met after leaving Arya and lent him the Alchemist's face. It is impossible to tell if the FM are working for themselves or for another agency, It is also impossible to tell if this is a long game or just a reaction to circumstances as they arise. In any case, the FM was in Oldtown a good while before Euron decided to go on campaign. Knowing that he'd show up to attack, let alone take, Oldtown and the Citadel is a stretch.

 

30 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Also, if an FM does get hold of Eurons face, if Euron has the ability to skinchange in to a Kraken, would that FM also be able to do the same?

 

Without any firm explanation of how the FM do what they do, I assume that it is in the same vein as Melisandre's glamors of Mance and Rattleshirt. The face gives them the means to create an illusion of the entire person, but it is still just an illusion. I don't think any other inherent skills/powers would be granted. How this works over a long term mission is unclear. We thought that the FM were just the get in-kill-get out types of assassins, but they seem to do espionage too. We just don't know for whom.

 

30 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Whose side would the FM be on? The side of the living or the dead? Or neither...

 

Becoming a tortured zombie for all eternity would seem to be at odds with their philosophy of bringing the sweet kiss of death to their "patients". It's difficult to do that if you're a zombie yourself. Besides, the WW first have to cross the Narrow Sea to be a threat.

[The Mother of The Others]

5 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Balon being supposedly assassinated by the FM would prevent them taking Eurons face/attacking Euron?   

What if Euron never hired them but became sorcerous enough to mimic their invisible killer MO.   Then they'd target him as a threat because people without an honor code can't be allowed such power.  He'd remind the FM too much of the magic tyrants they had to overthrow back in the day.

Quote

 if Euron has the ability to skinchange in to a Kraken, would that FM also

Whoa.  And wow.  This freeway to funtown even comes with an onramp: first have a bloody sea battle with an armada too big for your fleet to fight, wait for the carnage to draw the creature to the surface, then ease your way into its mind now that it has accepted your blood sacrifice and is more receptive.  Then use the creature to finish off the armada for another impossible victory.  (This mental onramp method gets you around the problem of how "nobody can warg a dragon").

Quote

Whose side would the FM be on? The side of the living or the dead? Or neither...

Seems more likely they are there for a glass candle, but part of me wonders if they are waiting for Euron to do whatever weird magical shit he is about to do...

I think the FM are karma.  And they're on the side of human society finding balance, behaving sanely, following the golden rule, growing up and being held accountable for their actions.  If all the people died off the FM would have failed as gardeners of humanity.

I'm split on whether they want or need a glass candle.  They do fine without one.   But magic is on the rise so maybe it's time they upgraded their info gathering ability.   They like to ninja you though...  when you use a glass candle to eavesdrop, can other sorcerers see you on their caller ID?

 

5 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I personally don't think Euron and the FM have any connections.  It is impossible to tell if the FM are working for themselves or for another agency.  is this a long game.  they seem to do espionage too.

I think they're acting as repo men for the iron bank in this new espionage capacity.  Braavos is moving in and wants to try its hand at running the show on the continent, believing they can't do any worse than the Andals have been lately.  The Braavosi takeover will be more subtle than this, using influence like Iran does over the region, but imagine what a mere seven FM operatives could do:  what if the seven kingdoms' rulers all simultaneously came out in favor of granting Braavos control over the assets owed to the bank, which would put them in bankruptcy and give Braavos a say in policy making decisions, and all of them called for the war to end.    

The stolen skeleton key for the Citadel could be used to reach lord Hightower, face gank him, and have Oldtown side with Daenerys (breaker of chains) out of the blue.   Then, stealing the citadel's best book on killing dragons would protect Braavos' new dragons from outside assassination, while giving the FM the monopoly on dragon killing methods for when that time came, which would grow their legendary status even more.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

5 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

I think they're acting as repo men for the iron bank in this new espionage capacity.  Braavos is moving in and wants to try its hand at running the show on the continent, believing they can't do any worse than the Andals have been lately.  The Braavosi takeover will be more subtle than this, using influence like Iran does over the region, but imagine what a mere seven FM operatives could do:  what if the seven kingdoms' rulers all simultaneously came out in favor of granting Braavos control over the assets owed to the bank, which would put them in bankruptcy and give Braavos a say in policy making decisions, and all of them called for the war to end.    

The stolen skeleton key for the Citadel could be used to reach lord Hightower, face gank him, and have Oldtown side with Daenerys (breaker of chains) out of the blue.   Then, stealing the citadel's best book on killing dragons would protect Braavos' new dragons from outside assassination, while giving the FM the monopoly on dragon killing methods for when that time came, which would grow their legendary status even more.

A Braavosi takeover of Westeros. I love it.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:06 AM, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Another thread got me thinking; will Sam forge his maester's chain? In the original scheme, with the five year gap, I think that this was the plan. Sam would have had enough time to do this without it seeming forced. Now though, I'm not so sure. He may be at the Citadel just long enough to find out what he needs to know and then I figure he'll beat tracks back to the Wall. We can't have the ultimate fight against the Others without the Slayer, right? Or maybe he'll cower in a corner and just send a raven.

 

Thoughts?

I think the writing is on the wall when Sam first arrives at the Citadel. Basically, no one at the Citadel (apart from the select few) are going to believe him, so one would imagine that being an intelligent man, Sam would set to putting together his chain quickly to get back to Jon. As was his charge. But I think that will get interrupted. I think Sam will find himself tangled in Jaquen's (Pate's) journey. 

Basically, it'll be similar to Arya (Mercy) where there'll be every intention of becoming someone new, only to revert to type when something changes. Like an Iron Born invasion or perhaps he finds 'something' at the citadel that he thinks Jon needs. 

I don't think there'll be an ultimate fight. I think that whatever pact it was that has been broken, needs to be made good. I think Sam will be the guy who figures out how to do that.   

[Clegane'sPup]

It's been years and preview/sample chapters are still considered spoilery.

The reason I mention this is because I am of the opinion that occasionally a few ASOIAF readers don't know how much reading material has been made available.

Martin read at a con/gathering  in 2016 The Forsaken chapter.

Euron had Damphair in the bowels of the Silence during DwD when Euron, Vic and the Iron Fleet left the Iron Islands heading toward the Shield Islands.

Leaving that behind. If a person wanted to look at martin's site a person would find a WoW excerpt titled Arianne which describes a cave which may or may not have been a CotF hidey hole.

My thought is 20 plus years, social media, and the you know what ---- spoilers ---- meh.

I am of the opinion that Westeros virgins need to be informed iffin' they want to chatter. Approximately 5000 pages of martin's story telling not including the preview/sample chapters and no end in sight.

As to whether Sam forges a maesters chain. No. Time moves slowly in martin's tale. Five books in and a mere three to four years have passed. Supposedly there are two books left, WoW and DoS,  If martin keeps pace that may cover a year or year and a half.

AND for years posters have been yapping about Sam's little horn that Jon found as the straw that breaks the camels back, ie, the horn of Jormun that brings down the Wall.

Wait, what about that other horn, the one Euron gave Vic? A dragonbinder that no mere mortal can use and survive.

 

 

[The Mother of The Others]

I'm one of the ignorants, Jim.   I refuse to read the samples this time.  Doing so made the last book sucky/anticlimactic for the first 80 pages when it finally came out.  So if this Braavosi Takeover idea is all nonsense, fine.  Just let me know.   I'm fine with hearing the spoilers from sample chapters relayed like in a game of telephone, because that's easily forgotten a month later.

But back to the Braavosi Takeover....  if the Maesters are the current managers of Westeros, and everyone agrees they're doing a shitty job, then the Faceless could be infiltrating the Citadel as a prelude to saying, "You're fired!" to the maesters and having Braavos take over managerial duties.  This would mean Sam's good luck continues- -as one of the few who has a clue, he'll be kept on and quickly rise high within the new Order.  So it's "okay" and even "splendid" that "Pate" is standing so close to Sam ??  (crosses fingers and shoves them deep into armpits).