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Formula One 2019


Werthead

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

Terrible, terrible decision that ruined a rare race this season. There has to be an inquest on that decision as that wasn't a crowd of Ferrari fans booing the podium - it was fans angry at being robbed of a race.

Vettel denied the rumours about him retiring before the race weekend but after this race i bet he's considering it.

Yes, he made an error but he wasn't in control if the car. Jensen button thinks there would have been an accident if Vettel had tried to stay to the left if the track.

Not a good look for the sport, again

It did seem a harsh decision. I'm often not a fan of Vettel, but I think he deserved this win, I'm not sure what else he was meant to do unless he can somehow make his car levitate.

It's also a pity that it meant Hamilton no longer had any motivation to try to overtake so it robbed us of any potential showdown at the end of the race.

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8 hours ago, williamjm said:

It did seem a harsh decision. I'm often not a fan of Vettel, but I think he deserved this win, I'm not sure what else he was meant to do unless he can somehow make his car levitate.

It's also a pity that it meant Hamilton no longer had any motivation to try to overtake so it robbed us of any potential showdown at the end of the race.

I'm not a huge fan of Vettel either, although i have to admit an involuntary cheer when he got pole. I hate seasons of F1 where it's a procession more (possibly linked with my ambivalence to vettel as that was how he won 3 championships)

Main issue is that i hate stewards' decisions when they decide the race and also rob us of  a race - which isn't really happening this season.

If Vettel had hit Hamilton or caused Hamilton to crash, fair enough, but all that happened was Vettel lost ground and had shit up tyres which Hamilton should have been able to take advantage of.

 

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well, he made a mistake, left the track and yet retained the lead - hence he gained an advantage. they should have told him to let Hamilton past. At least that way, we would have had a race again

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Yeah, it was an awkward one. If you look at the rules, then applying them literally means that Vettel deserved a penalty: he came back on the track and squeezed Hamilton, who had to break. Raikkonen did the same thing last year and got the same penalty, so the stewards were looking for consistency.

However, the physics of the situation meant that if Vettel had tried to go for a tighter line on re-entry and staying more to the left, he could have spun the car completely and smashed the rear into the wall, with an excellent chance of taking Hamilton out as well (great news for Leclerc, less for everyone else). Hamilton admitted after he finally saw the replay that if he'd been in Vettel's place, he would have done the same thing.

I think on that basis they should have either asked Vettel to give up the place and then race for it back, or let it stand as a racing incident.

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17 hours ago, 6649er said:

well, he made a mistake, left the track and yet retained the lead - hence he gained an advantage. they should have told him to let Hamilton past. At least that way, we would have had a race again

That would have been far more preferable. I think "gaining an advantage" is viewed far too softly to the point where it encourages a driver like Hamilton to sit behind a driver and pressure them rather than pass them. It's bad enough being turned into an endurance race with tyre management but this whole "gaining an advantage" is dubious. Vettel lost time and tyres. He didn't cut a corner.

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, it was an awkward one. If you look at the rules, then applying them literally means that Vettel deserved a penalty: he came back on the track and squeezed Hamilton, who had to break. Raikkonen did the same thing last year and got the same penalty, so the stewards were looking for consistency.

However, the physics of the situation meant that if Vettel had tried to go for a tighter line on re-entry and staying more to the left, he could have spun the car completely and smashed the rear into the wall, with an excellent chance of taking Hamilton out as well (great news for Leclerc, less for everyone else). Hamilton admitted after he finally saw the replay that if he'd been in Vettel's place, he would have done the same thing.

I think on that basis they should have either asked Vettel to give up the place and then race for it back, or let it stand as a racing incident.

Jolyon Palmer gave a pretty good account saying the problem is in the rules but given the rules it was the correct decision.

Maybe they need to specify corners on where to apply? 

I just hate that races are decided off track. And the discussion after a race shouldn't be about such decisions but about actual racing.

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  • 1 month later...

Good last couple of races, especially the Leclerc/Verstappen battle which is getting nice and tasty.

Vettel has turned into a fucking shambles. Ferrari must be considering Plan B to replace him if this keeps up (word is that they may want Bottas as a reliable banker if Bottas's contract for next year isn't renewed, but that doesn't seem likely at the moment; Hulkenberg may also be on that list).

Also word spreading that McLaren is looking to reunite with Mercedes on the engine front, which is interesting (and makes the last five years a total waste of time for them).

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26 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Good last couple of races, especially the Leclerc/Verstappen battle which is getting nice and tasty.

Vettel has turned into a fucking shambles. Ferrari must be considering Plan B to replace him if this keeps up (word is that they may want Bottas as a reliable banker if Bottas's contract for next year isn't renewed, but that doesn't seem likely at the moment; Hulkenberg may also be on that list).

Also word spreading that McLaren is looking to reunite with Mercedes on the engine front, which is interesting (and makes the last five years a total waste of time for them).

Was at the race and enjoyed it a lot. Hamilton was lucky with how the safety car fell but he's been on the receiving end of this and did look hungry for the win.

Verstappen and le clerc had some great fights and gasly is improving. 

I think Vettel was bordering on broke when he realised he'd thrown last year's championship away. Losing the race the way he did a few races ago shattered him. I'm not sure his heart is really in it anymore. 

Ricciardo will be livid if a Ferrari seat becomes available and he is locked in a contract with renault. Hulkenberg might be worth a shot although I'd probably ask Alonso nicely.

4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Living near Silverstone is fucking horrendous. The roads after the grand prix are full of the absolute worst, boy racer middle aged wankbags on earth. 

I was on a coach but it still took a while

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The rumour is that the Renault contract has a clause allowing him to leave if a seat becomes available at Ferrari or Mercedes so Ricciardo should be able to move if Vettel is out at some point this year

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Was at the race and enjoyed it a lot. Hamilton was lucky with how the safety car fell but he's been on the receiving end of this and did look hungry for the win.

 

Hamilton was going to win it the second Bottas decided to do a two-stopper (the decision was made before the race, apparently). After his initial challenge, Hamilton sat back and managed his tyres. The safety car allowed him to pit faster than otherwise, but even if that hadn't happened, all he needed to do was go easy on the tyres and jump Bottas at his second stop.

Why Bottas and his team wanted to do a two-stop strategy when the tyres and conditions didn't seem to require it is another question. Might have been a move to cover anything in case the tyres started wearing out faster on the new asphalt surfacing.

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14 hours ago, Werthead said:

Hamilton was going to win it the second Bottas decided to do a two-stopper (the decision was made before the race, apparently). After his initial challenge, Hamilton sat back and managed his tyres. The safety car allowed him to pit faster than otherwise, but even if that hadn't happened, all he needed to do was go easy on the tyres and jump Bottas at his second stop.

Why Bottas and his team wanted to do a two-stop strategy when the tyres and conditions didn't seem to require it is another question. Might have been a move to cover anything in case the tyres started wearing out faster on the new asphalt surfacing.

I read that about the tyre strategy post race. I get the impression bottaa wasn't aware of this either from his comments. It was a bizarre strategy and you'd think they'd have at least allowed themselves flexibility of sticking to two stops making the same tyre choice at stop 1 very odd.

Eddie Jordan was throwing out some great speculative rumours. He thinks Hamilton might move to Ferrari if Vettel retires. I don't see this before he has 7 championships but i agree Hamilton has been very clear he'd like to drive fir Ferrari before retirement.

More juicy (and beleivable) was that he thinks McLaren are about to announce having mercedes engine in 2020. That seems a big risk from mercedes POV but maybe there's some stipulations eg no Alonso (which would help explain the new contracts for sainz and Norris). And maybe an option on Norris for 2021 should he continue to show promise.

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2 hours ago, red snow said:

I read that about the tyre strategy post race. I get the impression bottaa wasn't aware of this either from his comments. It was a bizarre strategy and you'd think they'd have at least allowed themselves flexibility of sticking to two stops making the same tyre choice at stop 1 very odd.

Eddie Jordan was throwing out some great speculative rumours. He thinks Hamilton might move to Ferrari if Vettel retires. I don't see this before he has 7 championships but i agree Hamilton has been very clear he'd like to drive fir Ferrari before retirement.

More juicy (and beleivable) was that he thinks McLaren are about to announce having mercedes engine in 2020. That seems a big risk from mercedes POV but maybe there's some stipulations eg no Alonso (which would help explain the new contracts for sainz and Norris). And maybe an option on Norris for 2021 should he continue to show promise.

I believe that only one F1 driver has ever won the championship with 3 different constructors, and that was Fangio in the 1950s. If he equals Schumacher in 2020 or beats him in 2021 (on championships and overall wins), Hamilton might then consider ending his career at Ferrari to nail that achievement as well. Hamilton probably firmly believes - and is likely right - that he would have won the WC even if he was in the Ferrari last year.

McLaren have a long-term problem in that they really needed to get into engine dev in the 1980s when the option was available. It would be almost impossible for them to do it now (it would take 5-10 years of work and investment) so they're stuck being a customer team, and all the engine manufacturers have works teams now apart from Honda, who are unlikely to resurrect that relationship in a hurry (and Red Bull likely have contractual clauses preventing another team from getting better terms than them). With other potential engine manufacturers (Cosworth, Porsche and Aston Martin considered a return in 2021, and Porsche built a prototype F1 engine) making it clear they won't touch F1 with a bargepole due to the complexity of the energy recovery system, McLaren are up shit creek. Getting a new Mercedes engine with which they might fight for 2nd or 3rd in the championship and the occasional win is better than what they've been doing for the last few years.

Mercedes also effectively agreed to supply McLaren last year, but the talks stalled at the last minute over costs, so if they resumed this year using that as a basis, they'd have plenty of time to put together a new deal. Although the question arises if they'd be better sticking with Renault, whose aero department is still massively missing the ball at the moment, for another few years, as that's likely how long it will take for Renault to start coming good on their own car. Give how half-arsed Renault are about F1 (not putting in the budget they clearly could afford to), it might be better for Renault to withdraw and effectively make McLaren their works team, but hey ho.

There are also rumours swirling around Williams switching to Renault, which would be an interesting combination.

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That Williams rumour makes sense. I recall the deal of loaning out bottas was connected with an engine deal. That contract is probably/has expired and I'm guessing williams are really struggling for cash these days. So it might be mercedes want to maintain having two teams with their engines (for cash and development) and McLaren might now feel it's worth renegotiating costs.

I totally agree Hamilton would have won in last year's Ferrari. Although maybe Vettel would have won in a mercedes - i get the impression Ferrari Don't manage him well.

Great point about winning with three teams. That's probably only stat left to go for. The thing is whether the current Ferrari could win a championship and whether next year's could. I think mercedes (or red bull) are a far safer bet for 2021.

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2 hours ago, red snow said:

Great point about winning with three teams. That's probably only stat left to go for.

There are some much more significant stats Hamilton can still aim at. He still needs 3 more championships to overtake Schumacher's record, and similarly needs 12 wins to have the most race victories.

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

That Williams rumour makes sense. I recall the deal of loaning out bottas was connected with an engine deal. That contract is probably/has expired and I'm guessing williams are really struggling for cash these days. So it might be mercedes want to maintain having two teams with their engines (for cash and development) and McLaren might now feel it's worth renegotiating costs.

Yup, and for Mercedes it's handy having a second decent car running their engine as a comparison. With Williams and Racing Point both fucking up royally this year, they're not getting the extra data they need, so they may find it useful to have McLaren as a comparison instead, although they then run the risk of McLaren matching them on track.

 

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There are some much more significant stats Hamilton can still aim at. He still needs 3 more championships to overtake Schumacher's record, and similarly needs 12 wins to have the most race victories.

 

Hamilton will win the 6th WC this year, barring something spectacularly unpredictable (like him breaking his leg snowboarding or something). He can't match the race victories (winning every race for the rest of this season would still leave him 1 adrift) but he should do that next year. You'd also have to say that, with no major or even moderate rule changes for 2020, Hamilton has to be the favourite for next year, barring a Red Bull or Ferrari improvement (and I think RB are more likely to step it up based on current form).

Oddly, for all of Mercedes' vaunted dominance, Hamilton hasn't yet broken the modern record for number of victories in a season set by Vettel (I think his best is 11 to Vettel's 15).

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44 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Oddly, for all of Mercedes' vaunted dominance, Hamilton hasn't yet broken the modern record for number of victories in a season set by Vettel (I think his best is 11 to Vettel's 15).

That one could be tricky to beat but maybe not impossible. Some other records are surely completely out of reach for him - Fangio's win percentage may never be beaten by anyone.

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8 hours ago, williamjm said:

There are some much more significant stats Hamilton can still aim at. He still needs 3 more championships to overtake Schumacher's record, and similarly needs 12 wins to have the most race victories.

I guess he needs a worse team mate to get the wins at some point.

It depends on whether he wants to kill two birds with one stone and get the championship record with another team. I think he'd stay with mercedes until he equalled Schumacher with 7. 

7 hours ago, Werthead said:

Yup, and for Mercedes it's handy having a second decent car running their engine as a comparison. With Williams and Racing Point both fucking up royally this year, they're not getting the extra data they need, so they may find it useful to have McLaren as a comparison instead, although they then run the risk of McLaren matching them on track.

 

Hamilton will win the 6th WC this year, barring something spectacularly unpredictable (like him breaking his leg snowboarding or something). He can't match the race victories (winning every race for the rest of this season would still leave him 1 adrift) but he should do that next year. You'd also have to say that, with no major or even moderate rule changes for 2020, Hamilton has to be the favourite for next year, barring a Red Bull or Ferrari improvement (and I think RB are more likely to step it up based on current form).

Oddly, for all of Mercedes' vaunted dominance, Hamilton hasn't yet broken the modern record for number of victories in a season set by Vettel (I think his best is 11 to Vettel's 15).

I agree that red bull seem more stable amd likely to produce a better car. Ferrari keep changing management making it a bit unpredictable. McLaren seem to have finally got their shit together and their driver line-up is possibly the most exciting since max and daniel parted ways. I think McLaren mercedes could easily result in their being 4 teams that can get podiums which should translate to more exciting races. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The rain forecast and mixed-up grid promised an exciting race and the German GP definitely delivered. None of the drivers looked entirely comfortable, with even Verstappen spinning on his way to victory. Aside from that it was an impressive drive from Verstappen and a great recovery drive from Vettel. Mercedes has one of the worst races I can remember in recent years with just about everything going wrong for Hamilton. Bottas looked to be having a quiet race by comparison, but ended up in the barriers.

Racing Point's decision to put slicks on Lance Stroll's car was the best piece of tactical thinking of the day and they got a well-deserved fourth place out of it. It was also a good drive from Kvyat to get his first podium in several years.

Pierre Gasly had another tough day, I wonder if he'll still be the Red Bull next year. I know Verstappen is a tough team-mate to be compared against but he's getting comprehensively outperformed.

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Completely bonkers race. It's fun when this happens, although it does also completely throw off all the development of the cars and makes things rather random, so you wouldn't want it happening too much.

Hamilton's penalty was freaking nuts, though. The front wing was severely damaged and driving around with it like that for a full lap would have risked a really serious accident. Several times we've seen cars roll over their own front wings when they're detached, which then explode and shred debris over the track in a manner that's hugely dangerous to the other drivers. So Hamilton had no choice but to turn into the pits. He couldn't make the bollard without driving the wrong way around the track (which is #1 on the FIA's rules of "never fucking do this, for any reason, ever"), so there was no other way for him to get into the pits. So that felt like a pretty harsh penalty.

Rumour before the race was that Red Bull were seriously considering swapping out Gasly for Albon, either for Hungary or after the break. They'd been resisting doing that because it might be an even bigger roll of the dice (Albon is in his 1st season in F1, whilst Gasly was promoted in his 2nd) but Gasly has really not been performing well (getting lapped by your team mate in the same spec car is ridiculous). Silverstone showed that he has good potential, so they wanted to see what he could do today. In a race his team mate won, he really should have done better than 14th. The only issue now is that Kvyat's result means that Red Bull now have to consider whether it's a good idea to go with Albon or the much more experienced Kvyat, even though he's already messed up one chance in the big chair.

I do have a strong suspicion that Grosjean is toast after he managed to nearly fuck up Haas's race for the second race in a row, and there's huge rumours swirling that Haas have opened negotiations with Mercedes about bringing Ocon on board. That might be interesting, but of course Mercedes now have to decide whether to keep Bottas in the big chair or put Ocon in. In that case Bottas might end up at Haas, or have to consider leaving F1 altogether.

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Racing Point's decision to put slicks on Lance Stroll's car was the best piece of tactical thinking of the day and they got a well-deserved fourth place out of it. It was also a good drive from Kvyat to get his first podium in several years.

Also Toro Rosso's second podium. Ever. Their last one was when Vettel unexpectedly won in 2008, which was the trigger for his move to Red Bull.

Another good story today was Kubica getting his first point since his comeback, and the first for Williams this year.

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Great race, three on the bounce so hopefully get another good one before the summer break.

I think Hamilton's penalty was harsh but understandable. 5 seconds was much better than the alternative of driving around for a full lap and he was just incredibly unlucky to have the accident where he did. But le clerc, bottas, hulkenberg were even more unlucky.

Think it's a bit harsh on bottas how toto wolff is being with him. Bad day for toto though. A post race interview had him suggesting the silly outfits etc were possibly a distraction.

Felt best for Vettel. He's arguably had a bad time of it since his mistake in germany last year so it was apt this might be one of his best results in a long time. I was thinking on Saturday "if i were him I'd be writing my resignation letter" where through no fault if his own he started last in a car capable of pole. Just shows how things can change.

I wasn't aware that max had a performance clause in his contract. Although that excuse for leaving may rapidly be disappearing with current results. Other than a move to mercedes, i think finances could be only reason to move elsewhere. Although Ferrari always has the prestige draw. It'd be a disaster for red bull to lose ricciardo and max in a year especially with an average generation of toro rosso drivers. Maybe Red Bull would have to consider buying a driver in for probably the first time since Coulthard (although he might have been there before it was red bull)

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