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U.S. Politics: Impoverished In Squalor


lokisnow

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I think it should also be noted at the end of the letter Barr stated he has requested the Special Counsel's assistance in identifying aspects of Mueller's report that should remain confidential.  That sounds fair enough, at least on its face.

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1 hour ago, Mexal said:

It's more about the criminal nature of proving obstruction of justice beyond a reasonable doubt and if they can't prove the underlying crime (conspiracy) then they can't prove that Trump actually obstructed justice to stop that crime from being exposed. It's legal rather than actual which is why Mueller didn't make a determination one way or another. Full report in that area might still not look great for Trump but the top line is very good.

If you're covering for people who committed a crime on your behalf, you might not be guilty of the original crime, but it's still obstruction, yes? Maybe we should ask Nixon.

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13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think it should also be noted at the end of the letter Barr stated he has requested the Special Counsel's assistance in identifying aspects of Mueller's report that should remain confidential.  That sounds fair enough, at least on its face.

No, it doesn't. We paid for it, it's ours, and we deserve to see it. All of it, unredacted. If he's as innocent as he claims, there's no harm in it.

 

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30 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Only ones saving the USA from Trump are the voters in 2020. That is all. Trump has already been named as a co-conspirator in a campaign finance felony and no one has batted an eye.

Our democracy is broken. The law means nothing. Why are people still kidding themselves that this evil thing will ever go willingly?

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3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

If you're covering for people who committed a crime on your behalf, you might not be guilty of the original crime, but it's still obstruction, yes?

It is, and there's plenty of precedent for that in political scandals.  You don't even have to go back very far - what was Scooter Libby's underlying crime?

3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

No, it doesn't. We paid for it, it's ours, and we deserve to see it. All of it, unredacted. If he's as innocent as he claims, there's no harm in it.

Well, there certainly may be plenty of things that objectively should not be publicized intelligence-wise, let alone the standard for not releasing grand jury information.  If Mueller's team helps him identify those aspects -- and Barr delivers the unredacted report to Congress - it's not unreasonable.

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On 3/22/2019 at 6:25 PM, Mudguard said:

I'm also worried that Mueller's report is going to be a big disappointment by not finding strong evidence of collusion/conspiracy with Russia to commit an unlawful act.  The lack of further indictments, when so far no one has been charged with collusion with Russia, suggests that Mueller just didn't find the evidence to support such a charge beyond a reasonable doubt.  It's seems extremely unlikely that Mueller could conclude Trump colluded with Russia but not any of his other staff members.

I've always felt that collusion was a long shot, but the obstruction of justice case seemed much stronger.  Some of Trump's public actions have seemed like textbook cases of obstruction.  However, if Mueller doesn't find collusion/conspiracy with Russia, it weakens the case on obstruction.  There has also been no indication that Mueller's two year investigation has been interfered with.  If there is no underlying criminal/unlawful behavior, then what is there to obstruct?  Trump can argue he fired Comey for legitimate reasons, as set forth in Rosenstein's memo, and not because he was trying stop the Russia investigation.  That he allowed Mueller to complete the investigation without interference (as far as we know) supports this position.  

Without the finding of collusion or obstruction, Trump's daily assertion that there isn't any collusion and that this was just a giant witch hunt are going to be validated.  He's going to hammer Democrat's on this nonstop.  He's going to use this to rile up his base.  And Republicans are going to have a lot more cover for continuing to support Trump.  And it's not going to help with Democrat turnout.

So your worries proved at least partially justified. Though I do think this issue won’t be as big a factor as who wins the election, I do feel too many democrats, put their eggs in this one basket in how they decided to attack Trump. Like, if you watched MSNBC at any point these past 3 years, odds are you would’ve stumbled upon a segment of them taking about Russia.

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40 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Pelosi was oh-so-right to say what she said then.

Trump will be the latest in a long line of Republican presidents who got away with far more than they should have: Nixon, Reagan, H.W., W. ...

Yes, it’d be far worse for the democrats if they’d started the process to legally impeach Trump over this. 

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Do you remember that time Obama saluted with a coffee cup in hand?

 

Oh yes. I was still Facebook friends with a few more right wingers. They went apeshit. Not a fucking peep from those fucking numpties over the Gold Star family Trump shit on, or his original comments about liking guys who weren't shot down.

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51 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

His popularity is going to rise, and we will have 6 more years. 

As sad as I am to say it, the only hope we have is a recession. 

This is a bit defeatist. We're barely halfway through the first term, and that's like two centuries in Trump time. The public reaction vis-a-vis the midterms certainly revealed the general public has had enough already.

And while a recession is pretty much certain in the near future, I'm a lot more worried these days about climate change. The storms of last summer/fall and this winter pretty much spell out what's on the way, and fast.

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innocent, exonerated, no obstruction,  no collusion! now suck it,  libtard snowflake cucks!

time for us to have 6 more years of trump while centrist democrats fail Americans and we crawl further and further into a past.

I picked a bad time to stop drinking. 

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It was pretty obvious on Friday, once we heard that Mueller filed his report without any further indictments, that the report wasn't going to support either a charge on conspiracy with Russia or obstruction.

At this point, I'm not sure how much longer Democrats should keep pushing this issue.  It seems pretty cut and dried to me now.  I can't imagine that a Congressional investigation, which is more for show than substance, is going to uncover something that Mueller failed to find.  Since the conclusion of the report is favorable to Trump, I'm sure that Barr is going to release as much of the report as he can.  Calling on Mueller to testify, filing a lawsuit over access to the report, all those things seem like a waste of time now.  Democrats need to move on soon.

Lots of Democrats have more or less accused Trump of collusion/conspiracy with Russia, based on meager evidence or questionable evidence, like the Steele dossier.  Two years of beating the drum and they have nothing to show for it.  This also gives Republicans a line of attack on Democrats' credibility, trustworthiness, and judgment, and from what I've seen, Democrats tend to value those traits in a candidate more than Republicans.  Unfortunately, a small percentage of Democrats have shown that they are willing to sit at home and let a complete ass be elected president because they don't really like their own candidate.  This also give Republicans an easy way to rebut future allegations.  They'll just claim witch hunt and point to the 2 year Mueller investigation.  The results of the Mueller investigation is going to be a big boon to Trump and the Republican party.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

At this point, I'm not sure how much longer Democrats should keep pushing this issue.  It seems pretty cut and dried to me now.  I can't imagine that a Congressional investigation, which is more for show than substance, is going to uncover something that Mueller failed to find.  Since the conclusion of the report is favorable to Trump, I'm sure that Barr is going to release as much of the report as he can.  Calling on Mueller to testify, filing a lawsuit over access to the report, all those things seem like a waste of time now.  Democrats need to move on soon.

Lots of Democrats have more or less accused Trump of collusion/conspiracy with Russia, based on meager evidence or questionable evidence, like the Steele dossier.  Two years of beating the drum and they have nothing to show for it.  This also gives Republicans a line of attack on Democrats' credibility, trustworthiness, and judgment, and from what I've seen, Democrats tend to value those traits in a candidate more than Republicans.  Unfortunately, a small percentage of Democrats have shown that they are willing to sit at home and let a complete ass be elected president because they don't really like their own candidate.  This also give Republicans an easy way to rebut future allegations.  They'll just claim witch hunt and point to the 2 year Mueller investigation.  The results of the Mueller investigation is going to be a big boon to Trump and the Republican party.

 

I don't know. It seems like baseless, pointless, and futile accusations and congressional hearings work just fine for Republicans. Why not somebody else for a change?

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1 hour ago, kuenjato said:

This is a bit defeatist. We're barely halfway through the first term, and that's like two centuries in Trump time. The public reaction vis-a-vis the midterms certainly revealed the general public has had enough already.

That was prior to Mueller. And that wasnt trump running. Obama got his ass kicked in 2010 too. 

1 hour ago, kuenjato said:

And while a recession is pretty much certain in the near future, I'm a lot more worried these days about climate change. The storms of last summer/fall and this winter pretty much spell out what's on the way, and fast.

I'm simply saying what chance we have to get rid of trump. Though without doing that and getting any traction for the next 6 years, chances are good that gets just horrible too. 

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Also, on predictions about his rating - I think he will get to 45% aggregate in two weeks, with at least one major poll having him above 50% approval (probably rasmussen).

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1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

I don't know. It seems like baseless, pointless, and futile accusations and congressional hearings work just fine for Republicans. Why not somebody else for a change?

I think people like Speaker Pelosi (who was careful to wait for evidence before making grandiose accusations) will try to downplay this issue: it may be possible to make some hay from the possibility of obstruction charges, but collusion with Russia was undoubtedly the grand prize and that's unequivocally off the table now. On the other hand, there's a long list of Democrats who made such accusations and I fully expect them to cling tooth and nail to whatever the report leaves open. There's no reason they can't keep digging for the rest of Trump's time in office.

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1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

It was pretty obvious on Friday, once we heard that Mueller filed his report without any further indictments, that the report wasn't going to support either a charge on conspiracy with Russia or obstruction.

At this point, I'm not sure how much longer Democrats should keep pushing this issue.  It seems pretty cut and dried to me now.  I can't imagine that a Congressional investigation, which is more for show than substance, is going to uncover something that Mueller failed to find.  Since the conclusion of the report is favorable to Trump, I'm sure that Barr is going to release as much of the report as he can.  Calling on Mueller to testify, filing a lawsuit over access to the report, all those things seem like a waste of time now.  Democrats need to move on soon.

Lots of Democrats have more or less accused Trump of collusion/conspiracy with Russia, based on meager evidence or questionable evidence, like the Steele dossier.  Two years of beating the drum and they have nothing to show for it.  This also gives Republicans a line of attack on Democrats' credibility, trustworthiness, and judgment, and from what I've seen, Democrats tend to value those traits in a candidate more than Republicans.  Unfortunately, a small percentage of Democrats have shown that they are willing to sit at home and let a complete ass be elected president because they don't really like their own candidate.  This also give Republicans an easy way to rebut future allegations.  They'll just claim witch hunt and point to the 2 year Mueller investigation.  The results of the Mueller investigation is going to be a big boon to Trump and the Republican party.

 

 

 

While I do think Democrats should drop this immediately, I do think some people have far overestimated how important this story was to the general electorate. :https://www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmarsico/2018/01/30/where-is-public-opinion-on-the-russia-investigation/#721015b23436

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmarsico/2018/01/30/where-is-public-opinion-on-the-russia-investigation/#721015b23436

I made a thread focused on whether a lot of Democrats focused too much on the Russia-Trump collusion theory. 

It seems as though they did.

 

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21 minutes ago, Altherion said:

I think people like Speaker Pelosi (who was careful to wait for evidence before making grandiose accusations) will try to downplay this issue: it may be possible to make some hay from the possibility of obstruction charges, but collusion with Russia was undoubtedly the grand prize and that's unequivocally off the table now. On the other hand, there's a long list of Democrats who made such accusations and I fully expect them to cling tooth and nail to whatever the report leaves open. There's no reason they can't keep digging for the rest of Trump's time in office.

Well, given how the Republican Party has acted in the past and the shit they have managed to have gotten away with, with their bogus scandals, I feel a bit like:

"Litigation Myth Number 8: In order to be successful a lawsuit must have merit."

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