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Why was Viserys mad and his "Sister" and "Brother" wasn't?

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Gods flip the coin to see if a Targaryen or maddness or greatness.

If you look the family tree of Targaryens you will series of incest: I am going tell you that Rheagar and Dany are not product of incest.

Aegon the Unlikely marry a Blackwood, Jaeherys his son marry his sister then have Aerys and a daughter Rhaella. Jaeherys force them to wed, this is where I think that Rhaella is had affair with Bonifer Hasty (Knight) which produces Rheagar (Greatness). Rheagar marry Lyanna a second wife and have a baby girl baby in the Tower of Joy this baby girl is Dany.  Where Viserys had two generations of incest which poison his mind also his father.   Rheagar and Dany are products of different blood line introduction gene pool.

 

I still think Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne are the parents of Jon Snow he is older than Robb by 8 months because he conceive in the Black Cells of the Red Keep.

 

To go further Aegon the Unlikely parents are Markker Targaryen and a Dayne before it Dareon the Good and his Dorne Princess/Queen.

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First: incest doesn't automatically mean that the children born of it will be afflicted in any way. It only multiplies the chance the children will inherit some bad genes. If the incestuous parents are lucky, they will have perfectly healthy children.

Second: if Jon was eight months older than Robb, there is no way he could be passed off as younger than Robb in infancy. A baby of 2-3 months is barely able to hold its head upright, one of 10 months is crawling around, sitting on its own and perhaps even trying to stand up.  Add a couple more months, and you would have Jon walking while Robb might be beginning to crawl. No. Way.

Third: your scenario contradicts the words of GRRM that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, so for your theory to work, you must subscribe to lemongate and make her somebody else than she is.

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Posted (edited)

I would not be too certain at all of the role parentage will play in the future of the plot.  DNA will but inheritance is not.  Daenerys hatched three dragon eggs.  Even if she was only Half-Targ won't mean anything.  She will be seen as the real deal, the daughter of House Targaryen and a person to be taken very seriously.  Rhaella's teenage crush is the likely among the usual suspects if you want to take it that far.  I just don't think it matters.  The Baratheons already took the throne and broke the line of succession.  The Targaryen who takes it will have to do it through force and not some inheritance technicality.  The Lannisters took it from the Baratheons.  Ned's, Jon's, and Stannis's accusations of bastardry against the Lannisters did little good.  

6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Second: if Jon was eight months older than Robb, there is no way he could be passed off as younger than Robb in infancy. A baby of 2-3 months is barely able to hold its head upright, one of 10 months is crawling around, sitting on its own and perhaps even trying to stand up.  Add a couple more months, and you would have Jon walking while Robb might be beginning to crawl. No. Way.

And yet they did.  That's why Luwin came up with his line of bastards growing up faster than other boys.  He knew or at least suspected.  He chose to keep peace and support the lie.  

Edited by James Fenimore Cooper XXII

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Doesn't hold up, but a fun its a fun take :) 

Maegor the Cruel had a Velaryon grandmother.

Baelor the Blessed had a Velaryon mother.

Aegon II had a Hightower mother.

Aegon IV had a Lyseni mother.

Aerion Brightflame had a Dayne mother.

Aerys the Mad King had a Blackwood grandmother.

 

So maybe the opposite could be worth taking a look at? Maybe their blood-magic-blood-lines doesn't mesh well with outsiders? 

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The book series has fantasy genetics, which isn't terribly consistent and lets GRRM have things the way he thinks makes for a good story. Baratheons always having black hair regardless of who they marry over many generations doesn't make sense, but that's what he went with.

If I were to attempt to be Watsonian, I could point out that schizophrenia can take a while to manifest* and perhaps Dany isn't old enough yet. But then the Targaryens have fantasy genetic madness rather than our world's schizophrenia.

*The writer/director of "All Good Children", starring Jack Gleason, said that was why she had a protagonist at that age in an interview that I can't find now.

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I think it he'd like to keep it up to interpretation without necessarily confirming "madness" with a checklist.

He says that even Daeron and Baelor could be considered "mad" so I think he's going for subtlety here.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

If you look the family tree of Targaryens you will series of incest: I am going tell you that Rheagar and Dany are not product of incest.

Joffrey was a straight up psycho and Tommen and Myrcella are pretty normal. They are born from the same incest as Joffrey.

I don't think we can really talk about Viserys's madness without discussing his circumstances which likely exacerbated everything. It's like Aerys. He already had some madness in him, but Duskendale gave him a good shove over the edge. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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7 hours ago, Sigella said:

Doesn't hold up, but a fun its a fun take :) 

Maegor the Cruel had a Velaryon grandmother.

Baelor the Blessed had a Velaryon mother.

Aegon II had a Hightower mother.

Aegon IV had a Lyseni mother.

Aerion Brightflame had a Dayne mother.

Aerys the Mad King had a Blackwood grandmother.

 

So maybe the opposite could be worth taking a look at? Maybe their blood-magic-blood-lines doesn't mesh well with outsiders? 

Possibly.  The incidence of insanity did not really occur until long after the conquest, when the Targaryen brought the blood of the ordinary people into theirs.  Maegor was just cruel.  It doesn't mean he was crazy.  He chose a brutal way to deal with his enemies. 

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3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Joffrey was a straight up psycho and Tommen and Myrcella are pretty normal. They are born from the same incest as Joffrey.

I don't think we can really talk about Viserys's madness without discussing his circumstances which likely exacerbated everything. It's like Aerys. He already had some madness in him, but Duskendale gave him a good shove over the edge. 

Aerys got ptsd from Duskendale.  Many would under the circumstances. 

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12 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

And yet they did.  That's why Luwin came up with his line of bastards growing up faster than other boys.  He knew or at least suspected.  He chose to keep peace and support the lie.  

That line very clearly concerned mental maturity, as they discussed that Jon was too young to join NW at the age of fourteen.

Plus, every single woman who had given birth to a couple of children would know that it was bullshit, including Cat herself. Robb is only sitting while Jon is starting to walk around, but Jon is younger than Robb? Pull the other leg, dear ser.

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None of the three children are insane.  Viserys had emotional issues due to his upbringing and the constant stress of living in the streets.  Some of that stress was self-imposed because he wanted his kingdom back but he lacked the resources.  I can level the same charge against Stannis.  A man who feels entitled to a throne but lacked the means to make it happen.  Believing he was betrayed and the throne taken from him, he does things like assassinating his brother with a shadow baby, burning his followers, and so on.  

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2 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

None of the three children are insane.  Viserys had emotional issues due to his upbringing and the constant stress of living in the streets.  Some of that stress was self-imposed because he wanted his kingdom back but he lacked the resources.  I can level the same charge against Stannis.  A man who feels entitled to a throne but lacked the means to make it happen.  Believing he was betrayed and the throne taken from him, he does things like assassinating his brother with a shadow baby, burning his followers, and so on.  

"Emotional issues is a huge understament, and while Viserys was not a completely raving lunatic, he was hardly an example of mental health, he had the same making of a psycho that we could see with Joffrey and it was visible from tender age - Barristan states it as a part of the reason why he bent the knee to Robert instead of remaining loyal to the Targaryen family, as Viserys was clearly his father's son.

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21 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Jaeherys force them to wed, this is where I think that Rhaella is had affair with Bonifer Hasty (Knight) which produces Rheagar

Bonifer Hasty used to serve to Owen Merryweather, who became King's Hand after Tywin Lannister. Based on history of House Merryweather, it seems, that they were and still are working for Varys. Most likely, Orton Merryweather and his wife (Taena of Myr, same as her lover, Myrish captain with a scarred face) are Varys' agents. Seems that Varys came to Westeros, all those years ago, to destabilise 7K, and make it easier for Blackfyres/Golden Company to invade. Both Varys and Aerys' Hand Owen were trying to clash Aerys and Rhaegar. They were aiming to cause civil war between Targaryens. Could be, that besides denigration of Rhaegar's reputation, they were also using other tricks to destabilise Aerys. For example, they (Varys and Owen) made Aerys to think, that his wife is unfaithful to him. And Owen even took Bonifer Hasty into his service, while he himself was Aerys' Hand, because of Bonifer's past history with Rhaella. Though if there really was something between Bonifer and Rhaella (like they had a child together, or used to be in a sexual relationship), then Bonifer wouldn't have agreed to work for Varys. Thus, there was nothing between Bonifer and Rhaella, and Rhaegar definitely wasn't Bonifer's child.

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Rhaegar can qualify as 'mad' in the same sense as Daeron I and Baelor the Blessed (and Duncan the Small, for that matter). He acted like spoiled child or an entitled brat 'following his heart' or 'fulfilling prophecy', not caring about the conventions of the society he lived in or his duty to his father, his dynasty, and his people.

And he paid his price for that.

Viserys III wasn't really mad, no matter what Barristan says. He wasn't exactly very bright or particularly competent, but he doesn't resemble Joffrey in any way. He has no sadistic tendencies, and he clearly neither a narcissist nor particularly cruel. All he wants is to get back home and be called a king. It is not madness that gets him killed, it is stupidity.

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16 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Joffrey was a straight up psycho and Tommen and Myrcella are pretty normal. They are born from the same incest as Joffrey.

I don't think we can really talk about Viserys's madness without discussing his circumstances which likely exacerbated everything. It's like Aerys. He already had some madness in him, but Duskendale gave him a good shove over the edge. 

A lot of people today would fall over the edge if not for medication and behavioral health treatment.  Many people suffer from depression and if left untreated can push them over the edge.  Moody and quick to anger are some symptoms.  It would not take anything on the magnitude of Duskendale to push these folks to dysfunctionality.  Viserys, for whatever his illness might be, managed to survive.  Aerys would not survive outside of his seat of power. 

Arya is an example of a person with madness in her, the so-called wolf's blood, who got pushed over that edge.  Viserys feeling betrayed by the Dothraki went too far and got himself killed.  Gared got the fright of his life and lost his mind.  Another ptsd victim.  The Hound, much beloved by a few, can be said to have slight madness after his trauma.  You see, a lot of people can be exposed to the horrors of life but they don't become dysfunctional.  It's emotional strength that Viserys lacked.  His mind could not handle the humiliation.  Just look at what's happening to Theon and Arya.  They can't make up their minds over something so simple as identity. 

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13 hours ago, Great Oshiro said:

Possibly.  The incidence of insanity did not really occur until long after the conquest, when the Targaryen brought the blood of the ordinary people into theirs.  Maegor was just cruel.  It doesn't mean he was crazy.  He chose a brutal way to deal with his enemies. 

Thats true, Aegon II wasn't really mad either but I listed the ones that might be considered interesting in regards to madness. Also we don't know a whole lot about any individual Targs before conquest either so what was up b.c  is hard to say anything about.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He has no sadistic tendencies, and he clearly neither a narcissist nor particularly cruel

I agree that we can read Viserys many different ways, but I would say that him wanting back the "jewels and silks" plus Dragonstone plus King's Landing plus everything while Dany just wants a house with a red door is an example of narcissism on Viserys' part in contrast to Dany's humble desires.

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22 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The book series has fantasy genetics, which isn't terribly consistent and lets GRRM have things the way he thinks makes for a good story. Baratheons always having black hair regardless of who they marry over many generations doesn't make sense, but that's what he went with.

I never got the impression this implied anything more than "dark hair is dominant" which of course it is. Cross a BB brunette with a bb blonde and you get a Bb brunette every time. Then you marry that Bb brunette to another BB brunette and every child will be either a BB brunette or a Bb brunette, and every subsequent generation that dormant blond gene become less and less common; it's not improbable that a bb blonde genotype never showed up in the Baratheon line due to simple chance as long as marriages with blondes were few and far between, which they seemed to be.

There's some irony here: Ned comes to the correct conclusion, that Cercei's children are not Robert's, but by flawed logic. With a blonde Grandmother, it's entirely possible Robert himself carries a blonde gene. The fact that he came to the correct conclusion by following bad logic leads one to wonder if he came to that conclusion on his own or if he was led to that conclusion deliberately by someone else. Ned was trying to discover what Arryn discovered by studying genealogy and why it led to his murder. What if Aryn hadn't discovered Cercei's infidelity at all? What if he discovered that he couldn't possibly have been Sweetwobin's father? "The seed is strong" = "The gene is dominant".

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Posted (edited)

A roll of the dice, perhaps. 

I've sometimes speculated that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are Robert's kids, considering that Robert has a blond phenotype running around in his DNA from his Targaryen grandmother, and Cersei lied to Ned, knowing he'd act on his suspicions and get himself arrested.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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