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Why was Viserys mad and his "Sister" and "Brother" wasn't?

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Posted (edited)
On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 3:13 PM, Ygrain said:

First: incest doesn't automatically mean that the children born of it will be afflicted in any way. It only multiplies the chance the children will inherit some bad genes. If the incestuous parents are lucky, they will have perfectly healthy children.

Second: if Jon was eight months older than Robb, there is no way he could be passed off as younger than Robb in infancy. A baby of 2-3 months is barely able to hold its head upright, one of 10 months is crawling around, sitting on its own and perhaps even trying to stand up.  Add a couple more months, and you would have Jon walking while Robb might be beginning to crawl. No. Way.

Third: your scenario contradicts the words of GRRM that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, so for your theory to work, you must subscribe to lemongate and make her somebody else than she is.

Ygrain  in Catylyn chapters she talk about during the war she was at Riverum and worry about the Robb while she was at Riverum she gave birth there. Then  she arrive at Winterfell when the war was over to join Ned that when she found that Ned had bring the baby (Jon Snow) the Child of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark the real Lord of Winterfell and King of North. Ned told every one that he was same age of Robb (No) Jon Snow is older I believe in books version at beginning he said that is 14 years old I think his REAL age is 15.  

 

In Dany is 13 years old in books I think she was born the Tower of Joy the rebellion was over 14 years. She was switch with Jon at Starfall then she the took identity of the still born daughter Rhaella Queen.

Edited by Sophia [email protected]
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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 7:44 PM, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Being born of incest doesn't automatically make you insane. 

Sorry, still a firm believer of R+L=J, along with Rhaegar and Daenerys being Aerys and Rhaella's children. 

You look at Aerys's behavior with his Queen and why desperate to have Viserys after what 10 miscarries. His Jealously of Twin Lannister with his two golden twins. Why he wanted Viserys on the throne but not his grandson

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:29 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think it he'd like to keep it up to interpretation without necessarily confirming "madness" with a checklist.

He says that even Daeron and Baelor could be considered "mad" so I think he's going for subtlety here.

Daeron was young and reckless 50 000 men lost to Dorne war and other 10000 get it back well maybe little nuts!

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 8:01 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Joffrey was a straight up psycho and Tommen and Myrcella are pretty normal. They are born from the same incest as Joffrey.

I don't think we can really talk about Viserys's madness without discussing his circumstances which likely exacerbated everything. It's like Aerys. He already had some madness in him, but Duskendale gave him a good shove over the edge. 

Good Point but Ser Selmy already said that at the 8 years Viserys was showing madness.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 7:43 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

None of the three children are insane.  Viserys had emotional issues due to his upbringing and the constant stress of living in the streets.  Some of that stress was self-imposed because he wanted his kingdom back but he lacked the resources.  I can level the same charge against Stannis.  A man who feels entitled to a throne but lacked the means to make it happen.  Believing he was betrayed and the throne taken from him, he does things like assassinating his brother with a shadow baby, burning his followers, and so on.  

Stannis in the books didn't burn followers of faith that is show version.  I think what you are talk about House Blank (I forget their name) were piss off at Stannis about the burning of Faith statues.  His brother law was burn for being traitor and not for taking down his Faith statues. Viserys in the show version was 4 years old yes he had emotional issued due to his upbringing and the constant stress of living in the street also a 300 years dynasty to maintain and try to bring back yes, but his treated of Dany was terrible and his ignorance of Horse people that they must bow down to him because of his blood.  The real world doesn't work like that he should learn that from the streets.  He wanted to live in his fantasy world.

 

ps yes Stannis did assassinating his brother.

Edited by Sophia [email protected]
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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 11:27 PM, Great Oshiro said:

Possibly.  The incidence of insanity did not really occur until long after the conquest, when the Targaryen brought the blood of the ordinary people into theirs.  Maegor was just cruel.  It doesn't mean he was crazy.  He chose a brutal way to deal with his enemies. 

He had serious blow to his head I believe that gave him brain damage when he kill whole House Farwosy  his second wife House.

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Viscerys went a bit mad because he was treated like a bad joke when he thought he should of been a king. He was naive, delusional, and prone to bursts of anger. But that's about it. Dany has the same genetics as him but a completely different trajectory. Nobody mocked Dany, apart from Vicsery. She had no designs of becoming anything when the story begins. She has a humble origin imo.

Viscereys took the full brunt of being an exile. And faced an endless stream of mockery until finally he met someone whom refused to humour him. In my opinion, he was a fool. Not crazy. Just the product of torment.

Aerys is much the same. He was clearly suffering from an inferiority complex with Tywin. He was one of those people who'd never saw anything through. He had accomplished nothing whilst his hand had earned the respect of the realm. To make matters worse, Varys was most likely informing Aerys of every potential betrayal, driving the King deeper and deeper into insanity. I don't know if Varys did that on purpose. But it's clear that by the end, The mad king was convinced that everyone was his enemy. And he wasn't wrong. Look at the behaviour of the major lords during that time. Moves were being made against him. 

Dany was a humble person. But now she's popped a crown on her head, don't be too surprised if she turns out to be, you know, "mad". Power can do that to people. Especially if you are accustomed to having 1100 lbs of fire breathing destruction between your legs. 

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30 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's why I called it obsession, not necessarily madness.

Still somewhere there must be consequences to incest with this House, if he's being realistic. GRRM has compared it to horse breeding, where there are real effects. If he says the flaws are accentuated, the obsessions become stronger. It could be perceived as madness at that point. 

Of course this wouldn't show up as much in Fire and Blood because the incest coefficient wouldn't have multiplied as much as it has now, with Viserys' generation. 

Don't forget they were probably at it back in Valyria too, though there was another 39 dragonlord families to marry as well. 

The malformed reptilian miscarriages reported in FAB are probably a consequence of it too. 

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7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Didn't stop him from trying to rape Daenerys the night before her wedding to Khal Drogo.

Or the 'waking the dragon' moments and threats.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, corbon said:

Or the 'waking the dragon' moments and threats.

That too. Or from threatening to cut her unborn child from her womb, plus telling her that he’d have her gang-raped by 40,000 people and horses if that was the price. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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1 hour ago, Ser Uncle P said:

Don't forget they were probably at it back in Valyria too, though there was another 39 dragonlord families to marry as well. 

The malformed reptilian miscarriages reported in FAB are probably a consequence of it too. 

Daenerys had a dead lizard too.

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2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That too. Or from threatening to cut her unborn child from her womb, plus telling her that he’d have her gang-raped by 40,000 people and horses if that was the price. 

Yeah. But you know, that stuff is all perfectly reasonable. We can tell from it that he'd be a good, kind, if ineffectual, king. /s

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4 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yeah. But you know, that stuff is all perfectly reasonable. We can tell from it that he'd be a good, kind, if ineffectual, king. /s

And when we heard about Arriane's secret betrothal, did people think "too bad, what a missed opportunity" or "whew girl dodged a bullet..."? haha

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26 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And when we heard about Arriane's secret betrothal, did people think "too bad, what a missed opportunity" or "whew girl dodged a bullet..."? haha

I say dodged a bullet. Doran was a fool to try it, he and Oberyn would likely have known from letters from Elia and/or Uncle Lewyn. Barristan always said there was something of Aerys in Viserys. The same way Ned was a fool to continue with Sansa’s betrothal to Joffrey after he nearly killed Arya. 

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2 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Ygrain  in Catylyn chapters she talk about during the war she was at Riverum and worry about the Robb she carries then birth at Riverum. 

Yes. And? 

2 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

She arrive at Winterfell when the war was over to join Ned that when she found that Ned had bring the baby

Baby Jon and his wetnurse, actually. And? You are stating a known fact without making any argument. 

Cat also states that she didn't begrudge Ned any solace he might have found with someone else during the war, i.e. believes that Jon was conceived after their wedding, i.e. after Robb, and this is consistent with what Ned tells Robert, that he cheated on Cat while she was pregnant. That makes Jon officially slightly younger than Robb, when he could have  been of an age or slightly older. However, Jon couldn't have been older than 2-3 months, or else the difference in development would have been notable

 

2 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

(Jon Snow) the Child of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark the real Lord of Winterfell and King of North.

Repeating something doesn't make it true.

2 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Ned told every one that he was same age of Robb (No) Jon Snow is older I believe in books version at beginning he said that is 14 years old I think his REAL age is 15.  

Beliefs don't make for arguments.

2 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

 

In Dany is 13 years old in books I think she was born the Tower of Joy the rebellion was over 14 years. She was switch with Jon at Starfall then she the took identity of the still born daughter Rhaella Queen.

Your English as well as your sentence structure, or rather lack of, makes it rather difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Do you mean that Dany was born at ToJ and then, some 6-9 months old, was swapped for Rhaella's stillborn and no-one ever noticed? Seriously? This is crazy even by the lemongate usual standards.

Furthermore: if Dany was born at ToJ and we apply GRRM's statement about the age difference between Jon and Dany as 8-9 months, it means that Dany was conceived a couple months into the Rebellion, at around the time of Jon's birth. Jon's conception would thus be placed far earlier than the start of the Rebellion, definitely prior Brandon's time in the Black Cells, more like, Harrenhall. Which indeed makes Jon too old to be passed off as younger than Robb. Not to mention, it makes Ned a huge dick for taking a one-year old from his mother, just to drag him North as his own bastard when he could have left Jon in Dorne where bastards are not frowned upon so much.

 

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17 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I'd say that pinching and twisting his sister's nipple is a pretty explicit indicator of something deeply unhealthy in Viserys, and his ramblings about being a dragon and what not are pretty much in the line with both Aerys and Aerion, and neither of those had a troubled childhood. An inflated ego, a complete disregard for other people's feelings, mistreating a sibling, sexual or sexualized abuse (Aerys raping Rhaella, Aerion threatening to castrate egg, Viserys twisting Dany's nipple) - now, if that is not a picture of a mental issue running in the family, I don't know what else it might be.

Nobleman Referring to themselves as their House’s animal really isn’t unique to Viserys. Hell its so common Illaryio makes fun it when Tyrion refers to himself as a lion. And far as I know Aerys never adopted referring to himself as a dragon to an excessive degree.

And, people being terrible can precipitated without them being mentally ill. 

That’s just flat-out insulting to both the mentally ill.

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5 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Good Point but Ser Selmy already said that at the 8 years Viserys was showing madness.

Madness can encompass a lot of unusual behaviors.  And while Selmy has had the best opportunity to observe the family in his long years of service, precise diagnosis of such illness is beyond the medical knowledge of his time.  So a kid with temper tantrums might simply be described as having the madness when in reality the child was spoiled by his parents.  Low self-control compared to his peers and impulsivity can make a child appear to have signs of madness.  But I agree.  Selmy's observations cannot be completely discounted because he has been watching the family for so long.  However, since he has been watching one family for so long his experience is limited to that one family.  How might Selmy react to a young Brienne?  Might he say of her that she is possessed by madness?

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even his father could do that. Because you can actually have the sanity to surround yourself with competent men.

Interesting, because this is what Aerys managed to do.  

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

When the Starks become so singularly obsessed with reclaiming their birthright they attempt to sell one of their own family members in exchange for an army then I would agree, but its shallow analysis to collapse characters into a single motive. Dany and Viserys are MIRROR characters to the Starks. It's a good literary term to use when analyzing these books. That doesn't mean they are the same. They may be involved in parallel plots, sometimes to achieve the same goals, but their differences in response to similar situations are highlighted. 

It's also important to consider age. Bran is 9 years old. Viserys is 22 years old. Saying they both have "delusions" as if they're comparable is weak.

Viserys has an unhealthy obsession with what he lost. The Starks do not. They aren't constantly thinking of their "birthright" or their "possessions" or even their "duty" at this point in the story, they've accepted that Winterfell is gone and that they've been displaced. Just a few examples:

“Winterfell is burned and fallen, Arya reminded herself. Old Nan and Maester Luwin were both dead, most like, and Sansa too. It did no good to think of them. All men must die.” - Arya

“There is no place here for Arya of House Stark, she was thinking. Arya’s place was Winterfell, only Winterfell was gone. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. She had no pack, though.” - Arya

“She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen.” - Sansa

They're all adapting to their new environments, even if it's with unease. Now there might come a point when they realize they have to take back Winterfell, but I doubt we'll see one of the Stark children act like Viserys:

“Our land,” he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. “Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers...We will have it all back someday, sweet sister." Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. “The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King’s Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back.” Viserys lived for that day. 

And I understand what brought him to that point; he even has a more valid reason to want these things than Dany, who has no memory of the things she's lost.

Somehow whenever we get into discussions the same arguments are deployed. Whenever Targaryens look negative, they're just doing the same things any other noble family would do. Whenever Targaryens do something good this of course means that no other noble family could do it, and proves why they're special. I find this tedious.

You know, Sansa sold her own family for a chance to be with Prince Charming Joffrey.  She did it twice.  An innocent Micah and Lady died to pay for that act of over the top selfishness.  She later runs to Cersei to tell of Ned's plans to sneak out of the city.  

9 hours ago, Penny's Got a Gun said:

 

There is nothing wrong with Viserys to want to take back what was his.  Not in that world.  He is no different from Stannis and the Starks who all want what they believe is theirs.  He is better than Renly who wanted a kingdom that never was his.  

 

King Viserys III has as much reason to want Westeros back as the Starks do who want Winterfell back.  The Targaryens built Westeros and its capital.  The land belongs to them.  Viserys has as much right to Westeros as Bran and his kin does to Winterfell.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Madness can encompass a lot of unusual behaviors.  And while Selmy has had the best opportunity to observe the family in his long years of service, precise diagnosis of such illness is beyond the medical knowledge of his time.  

We aren't talking about a precise diagnosis, or even any diagnosis at all. We are pointing out how utterly unjustified, even contrarian to the limited evidence we have, this statement is.

Quote

As a king he wouldn't have been great, but he wouldn't have been cruel, either

 

Edited by corbon

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