Jump to content
Black Dragons

Why was Viserys mad and his "Sister" and "Brother" wasn't?

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

Care to provide us with a link to this interview?  

Sure. Here. The full quote: "Jon Snow is the truest character--I like his sense of realism and the way he copes with his bastardy." Jon manages to gain strength from being stigmatized. This indicates resiliency - and when mixed with a sense of realism - is a sign of good mental health in comparison to others in the story. 

8 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

It is wildly exaggerated.  I read Fire and Blood and it proved the scarcity of madness in the family.  It was an exaggeration because the history that we have been reading in the main books were coming from the perspective of Baratheon-Stark supporters.  FB is revealing.  Well, as much as George ever reveals.  

As incest increases the line between madness and greatness is harder to tell. However, I don't even like the term "madness." That's why I call it obsession or hypomania. When people are manic they believe grandiose thoughts about themselves and become obsessed with controlling the way they want the world to be. This can sometimes be harmful, to themselves and others. This tendency can be seen with Daeron I, Daenerys, Baelor, ect. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:
On 3/18/2019 at 8:32 AM, Morte said:

I think he had partly inherited his father emotional instability. But I wouldn't bet on him becoming another Aerys just out of the blue, and it also needed Duskendale to make Aerys into the monster he became.

I’m not sure... And actually, none of us can be sure. 

But from what little info we have, Aerys was much more agreeable and less nasty than Viserys when he was young. 

TWoIaF, Aerys II

“AERYS TARGARYEN, the Second of His Name, was but eighteen years of age when he ascended the Iron Throne in 262 AC, upon the death of his father, Jaehaerys, after little more than three years of rule. A handsome youth, Aerys had fought gallantly in the Stepstones during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Though not the most diligent of princes, nor the most intelligent, he had an undeniable charm that won him many friends. He was also vain, proud, and changeable, traits that made him easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles, but these flaws were not immediately apparent to most at the time of his ascension.”

When Viserys died he was 22 yrs old or thereabouts. And from what we’ve seen, he was very much his father’s son, sharing some of Aerys’s worst traits:  changeable, vain, proud. At the same time, he didn’t really show any of the more positive traits his father seems to have had as a young man.   

It's not about whether Viserys was a nice person (here his father might have even been better compared to him, but Aerys did not spend his life in exile), but whether Viserys is mad - and imho he isn't, he's just - pardon my French - an arsehole (at least when we meet him the first time, his character might have changed over the years on the run).

Him being emotionally unstable ("changable"), vain, not the sharpest knife in the box - as @Varysblackfyre321 pointed out, these are the characteristics of many noble young men (and women), and because of this traits he would have made a mediocre king (= a king whose success would depend on his small council), but we can't be sure he would have turned mad out of the blue.

But as you said: We don't know, none of us can be sure.

However @Varysblackfyre321 is not wrong here either:

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Aerys lived a life of pure luxury and for much of his life he didn’t actually have a care in the world. Honestly, if Viserys was of the same mental state of his father, or looked to already have his psyche crumbling by age seven he’d be stark raving mad by the time we see him in AGOT(as his father was)  given the intense pressure that’s been placed upon him at a young age.

I would add that Aerys would have broken and turned mad quite fast, had he lived Viserys' life. So while Viserys might have inherited more traits from his father than his siblings, he's still a lot more sane (grammar?) than Aerys.

I also agree that Barristan is anachronistic in his analysis of Viserys: His fathers doting on him and what Viserys became (or better: what he heard about Viserys) made Barristan think he inherited his fathers madness.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To be fair Robb did care for his sisters a lot. He would certainly have saved them barring giving up his vegence and he could reasonably expect they wouldn’t be killed-the girls could after all be married off to some good lions. 

But yes, he would sacrifice them for his vegence.

As he as Ned Stark’s son, and ruler of the North was expected to do.

Yes of course.

Just wanted to point out that their attitudes toward their sisters weren't so far away (plus targ-incest on Viserys' side). And nobody* was shocked about Viserys selling marring his sister off for troops, they were just shocked about selling marring her off to a "barbarian".

*Okay, I think we would be able to find a handful of nobles in the books who would never do this to their daughters/sisters, but they are clearly a small minority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Morte said:

It's not about whether Viserys was a nice person (here his father might have even been better compared to him, but Aerys did not spend his life in exile), but whether Viserys is mad - and imho he isn't, he's just - pardon my French - an arsehole (at least when we meet him the first time, his character might have changed over the years on the run).

Him being emotionally unstable ("changable"), vain, not the sharpest knife in the box - as @Varysblackfyre321 pointed out, these are the characteristics of many noble young men (and women), and because of this traits he would have made a mediocre king (= a king whose success would depend on his small council), but we can't be sure he would have turned mad out of the blue.

But as you said: We don't know, none of us can be sure.

However @Varysblackfyre321 is not wrong here either:

I would add that Aerys would have broken and turned mad quite fast, had he lived Viserys' life. So while Viserys might have inherited more traits from his father than his siblings, he's still a lot more sane (grammar?) than Aerys.

I also agree that Barristan is anachronistic in his analysis of Viserys: His fathers doting on him and what Viserys became (or better: what he heard about Viserys) made Barristan think he inherited his fathers madness.

Yes of course.

Just wanted to point out that their attitudes toward their sisters weren't so far away (plus targ-incest on Viserys' side). And nobody* was shocked about Viserys selling marring his sister off for troops, they were just shocked about selling marring her off to a "barbarian".

*Okay, I think we would be able to find a handful of nobles in the books who would never do this to their daughters/sisters, but they are clearly a small minority.

Tywin wanted to send Cersei to Balon!  That old man is not a box of candy.  Rickard wanted to send Lyanna to Robert which is a life of misery.  And that for his southron ambition.  That's not to claim Viserys was a good brother.  He was not that.  But mad?  I don't think so.  He managed to survive on the streets of Essos.  He has enough sense and stability to keep it together for this long duration.  He had a temper.  It's nasty.  But so do many young men.  Viserys would have been fine had he been given discipline.  A fostering with a trustworthy family would have done wonders for him during his youth.  Mace Tyrell's household would have been perfect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/16/2019 at 5:29 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

Gods flip the coin to see if a Targaryen or maddness or greatness.

If you look the family tree of Targaryens you will series of incest: I am going tell you that Rheagar and Dany are not product of incest.

Aegon the Unlikely marry a Blackwood, Jaeherys his son marry his sister then have Aerys and a daughter Rhaella. Jaeherys force them to wed, this is where I think that Rhaella is had affair with Bonifer Hasty (Knight) which produces Rheagar (Greatness). Rheagar marry Lyanna a second wife and have a baby girl baby in the Tower of Joy this baby girl is Dany.  Where Viserys had two generations of incest which poison his mind also his father.   Rheagar and Dany are products of different blood line introduction gene pool.

 

I still think Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne are the parents of Jon Snow he is older than Robb by 8 months because he conceive in the Black Cells of the Red Keep.

 

To go further Aegon the Unlikely parents are Markker Targaryen and a Dayne before it Dareon the Good and his Dorne Princess/Queen.

Being born of incest doesn't necessarily result in mental illness.

I doubt if Viserys was mentally ill, as opposed to obnoxious, stupid, entitled, and bitterly frustrated.

Rhaegar may have come closer to mental illness, given his tendency towards depression and his obsession with prophecy.

And, it's unclear (at this stage) whether Daenerys has any kind of mental disorder.  It can be hard to tell at times whether she is experiencing the supernatural or simply hallucinating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

A fostering with a trustworthy family would have done wonders for him during his youth.  Mace Tyrell's household would have been perfect. 

Barristan(?) says the queen shielded Viserys as best as she could, so I think she would have tried to send him away for fostering soon; and yes, it would have been good for him.

The Tyrells had sons around Viserys' age, so it would fit perfectly, but Dorne would also be possible.

However I think it would be almost as "funny" as trying to send Sweet Robin away for fostering. :wacko:

 

Edited by Morte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I dont know guys...its not very convincing to say Viserys wasn't mad when Dany herself thinks her brother went mad in the end. Which implies that he had a moment of it toward the end of his life, not the whole time in Essos. What are we supposed to think when she uses this word? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Being born of incest doesn't necessarily result in mental illness.

I doubt if Viserys was mentally ill, as opposed to obnoxious, stupid, entitled, and bitterly frustrated.

Rhaegar may have come closer to mental illness, given his tendency towards depression and his obsession with prophecy.

And, it's unclear (at this stage) whether Daenerys has any kind of mental disorder.  It can be hard to tell at times whether she is experiencing the supernatural or simply hallucinating.

Obnoxious, stupid, entitled, and bitterly frustrated is how Sansa can be described too.  But sure.  I agree for the most part that Viserys was not mentally ill.  But he was depressed and desperate.  His emotions ran high and his anger had no outlet.  It was inexcusable to beat his sister the way he did.  She was the only good thing, the best thing, in his life.  But I guess an average man like me can understand that and he's a king.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Morte said:

Barristan(?) says the queen shielded Viserys as best as she could, so I think she would have tried to send him away for fostering soon; and yes, it would have been good for him.

The Tyrells had sons around Viserys' age, so it would fit perfectly, but Dorne would also be possible.

However I think it would be almost as "funny" as trying to send Sweet Robin away for fostering. :wacko:

 

Rhaella is not Lysa.  Aerys was.  But his reaction is actually just an exaggeration of parents who have lost many of their children.  He meant to make little Viserys his heir and wanted to keep him safe.  But I like the idea of fostering him off to the Tyrells or the Martells.  I just want to keep him away from Oberyn.  Oberyn is not exactly healthy either.  And Doran has OCD like symptoms.  I'm not saying they're mad.  A lot of people walking around today have OCD but we accept it.  Those "madness" that they refer to would probably be accepted today.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2019 at 9:21 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

"How dare you judge the dragon!"

Thats what these replies to my posts read like. :lmao:

Guys, chill. Its just Viserys. You have 4654655 other Targaryens you can wank over. Hunting for nonsensical Viserys parallels to Robb, Bran, and Sansa is really desperate.

Probably because Daenerys has a lot of fans and this is her family that you're criticizing.  Aren't you also defensive when it comes to the Starks?  I think so.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2019 at 10:23 AM, Penny's Got a Gun said:

They had dragons early on.  A dragon would detect the emotional turmoil within the person and refuse to bond.  Maybe they did have some with emotional instability back then but they got burned when they attempted to bond with the dragon.  It is said that intelligent animals like dogs and horses can detect instability in people.  A lot of dog and horse experts say this.  You cannot lie to a horse is an example because they will know you.  A dragon is at least the equal of dogs and dragons in intelligence.  Yeah so the dragons were culling the nuts from the family tree.  

Dragons would not bond with the mentally ill.  I think that is one of the keys to dragon bonding, mental and emotional strength.  I believe the loss of the dragons affected some of the Targaryens in negative ways.  They may be drawn to bond with the dragons just as the dragons were drawn to bond with the Targaryens.  The dragons gave them super immune systems.  Who is to say this connection with the dragons didn't also give them immunity from other forms of illness.  The Valyrians could not have kept their empire together for thousands of years if they had a high incidence of mental illness.  They could not have done it.  This madness, however small the percentage is, is a recent phenomenon.  The deaths of the male Targaryens most likely got rid of the bad genes.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"I like his sense of realism" - GRRM on Jon

That's a core trait of his personality. It's not going away. He may get hot-headed and defy people though, which is more or less what the wolfblood is. 

George was not talking about his sanity here.  He was, if I recall right, talking about the manner in which Jon was handling the issues with his family.  Specifically the limitations and the prejudice imposed on bastards.  It's not about whether he's sane or not.  He can be insane and still handle his bastard status within the Stark household well.  He handled it much better than Ramsay's with his bastardry.  But it doesn't mean Jon will not be prone to madness, whether he has Targaryen blood or not.  I am on the Mance+Lyanna=Jon theory.  Lyanna herself is not exactly right in the head.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Rhaella is not Lysa.  Aerys was. 

I know. I was thinking about reverse roles here. ;)

But to be fair: Rhaella would have a - however slightly - better chance succeeding than Jon had.

Edited by Morte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Probably because Daenerys has a lot of fans and this is her family that you're criticizing.  Aren't you also defensive when it comes to the Starks?  I think so.  

If I could think of a Stark who actually parallels Viserys (apples to apples) I would criticize them in the same way, but lucky for me, a defensive Stark fan, GRRM hasn't written one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Dragons would not bond with the mentally ill.  I think that is one of the keys to dragon bonding, mental and emotional strength.  I believe the loss of the dragons affected some of the Targaryens in negative ways.  They may be drawn to bond with the dragons just as the dragons were drawn to bond with the Targaryens.  The dragons gave them super immune systems.  Who is to say this connection with the dragons didn't also give them immunity from other forms of illness.  The Valyrians could not have kept their empire together for thousands of years if they had a high incidence of mental illness.  They could not have done it.  This madness, however small the percentage is, is a recent phenomenon.  The deaths of the male Targaryens most likely got rid of the bad genes.  

Balerion bonded with Maegor and he was a psychopathic murderer and kinslayer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Targaryens can get sick, mentally and physically. It is one way that their belief in their own superiority is completely undermined. You're not supposed to prop it back up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many of the Targaryens have superman levels of immunity to diseases.  If it were not so then it would not have been noticed and noted.  This blessing didn't get passed on to every Targaryen and that is to be expected.  Some Targaryens were not blessed with the ability to bond with dragons either.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Obnoxious, stupid, entitled, and bitterly frustrated is how Sansa can be described too.  But sure.  I agree for the most part that Viserys was not mentally ill.  But he was depressed and desperate.  His emotions ran high and his anger had no outlet.  It was inexcusable to beat his sister the way he did.  She was the only good thing, the best thing, in his life.  But I guess an average man like me can understand that and he's a king.  

That's pretty unfair on Sansa IMHO.  She comes over as stupid and stuck up to begin with, but her character develops.

I agree that his treatment of Daenerys was disgraceful.  She was the one person he could safely vent his anger on, being the coward and bully that he was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Balerion bonded with Maegor and he was a psychopathic murderer and kinslayer. 

Psychopathy is not mental illness afaik. Moreover I do not think every murderer and rapist has to be a psychopath. Rhaegel was mentally ill... maybe. Or maybe he just had fun dancing naked.

I am not sure what to think about such real world phenomena in context of asoiaf. We know that genetics in the books is quite "specific". Are there bacteria in the world of the ice and fire at all?

 

Edited by broken one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Annalee said:

Many of the Targaryens have superman levels of immunity to diseases.  If it were not so then it would not have been noticed and noted.  This blessing didn't get passed on to every Targaryen and that is to be expected.  Some Targaryens were not blessed with the ability to bond with dragons either.  

Oh, really, they're epidemiologists too now? They know exactly what the fuck is going on? Some didn't get sick so they concluded they got the superhuman gene while the other poor unfortunates were condemned to suffer the fate of dying like common men? 

Wow the delusion of Targaryen Exceptionalism is strong.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×