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Can Aegon I conquer Europe in the 15th century?

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

True. And there's a "famous" quote from one of Hannibal's officers, who told him the equivalent of "you're a conqueror not a ruler". Rings a bell? 

Chief cavalry commander Maharbal told him, "Hannibal, you know how to gain a victory, but not how to use one."

I can imagine Barristan saying that to Daenerys in Mereen…:smug:

Edited by Nowy Tends

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12 minutes ago, Ran said:

The early cannons we're anti-personnel, small, and mobile. A 5 pound ball of stone would ruin any dragon's day.

AFAIK support of the cannon was problematic, especially aiming. Loading took some time too and the pipe could explode at any attempt to shoot. At Grunwald in 1410 after 2 uneffective salvos (they just made some noise) the personnel had to leave fast :P 

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6 minutes ago, Alarich II said:

Perhaps the very early 15th century was the very last time that Aegon could have conquered even a smaller piece of the European cake.

I agree. In the 16th it would have been impossible.

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12 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

True. And there's a "famous" quote from one of Hannibal's officers, who told him the equivalent of "you're a conqueror not a ruler". Rings a bell? 

I'll try to find that quote…

 

Yeah, Robert.

 

Besides, the conversation has gone off track. The subject the OP posed is:

Quote

Can Aegon I conquer Europe in the 15th century?

 

He didn't ask about holding it.

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4 minutes ago, broken one said:

AFAIK support of the cannon was problematic, especially aiming. Loading took some time too and the pipe could explode at any attempt to shoot. At Grunwald in 1410 after 2 uneffective salvos (they just made some noise) the personnel had to leave fast :P 

And in 1428, the Hussite army counted 3000 handheld guns alone , and about 300 light and 60 big cannons. The main driver was the Hundred Years War which sped up military innovation a a lot. And Aegon had only 3 dragons. Also the use of Byzantine Fire is not competely new to Europeans, so the shock and awe effect might be less than hoped.

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2 minutes ago, Alarich II said:

...And Aegon had only 3 dragons.

 

Yes. Heavy consideration into breeding more for fodder would need to be taken. The conquest would not be short. Dragons or no, the Alps and the Pyrenees need to be overcome.

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Posted (edited)

I think if the Targaryens show up at the Doom (magical portal to another dimension!), then the time to strike is pretty much then: 14th century Europe would be easier to conqueor. Time it right, make an alliance with the Mongols, let them sweep the east, you grab the west and then turn on them as the saviors of Christianity.

By the 15th century, the proper course is to hold on to Dragonstone, make alliances, have sons, make marriages to the daughters of great powers, and carve out a toehold. 

Honestly, I wonder if anyone's done a Europa Universalis mod with "And then Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters arrive in Europe with a small army and three dragons"...

Edited by Ran

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21 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I agree. In the 16th it would have been impossible.

 

Any time after the mastering of the iron casting of cannons and the invention of the matchlock I think would be the line, so yeah. I would think that as a Targaryen you wouldn't want to land on the battle field past the mid 15th century. Better to keep to the air and moving fast to strike and run for another pass.

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I am not even sure, it would work in the 11th century. He may be able to defeat europes military at that time, but no christian european would bend the knee to what they might view as Satan himself with his demon brides. He could only be king of ashes, but never rule over the people he conquered.

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A couple of other things to consider:

As we know, warfare breeds innovation. 15th century Europe had plenty of warfare, but they didn't have dragons. Sometimes, the innovation is there, but too costly to be ubiquitous. They had already invented a very reliable firing mechanism by the 15th century to make guns much better; the wheellock. Unfortunately, wheellocks rely on spring steel to work and spring steel was hard and expensive to make in the 15th century, so only rich folks could afford to buy one. However, if dragons were your enemy and you felt that you needed everything you could get your hands on to combat them, the kings and lords of each country may have been a little freer with their purses in order to equip their troops with the best version of the best weapon available to kill a dragon. Given enough inspiration, I'll bet wheellocks could have been modified to work on cannon too.

Which brings me to the other thing: Leonardo Da Vinci vs The Dragons. Now that would be worth the price of admission alone (assuming that he didn't up and join the Targaryens just for the opportunity to study the beasties).

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If Aegon I had teamed up with the dying Byzantine Empire, and prevented that death at the hands of the Ottomans perhaps he could have inspired loyalty. Constantinople with dragons sounds fearsome. 

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3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

I agree. In the 16th it would have been impossible.

I dont think so. Impossible is a strong word, I bet if George III had three dragons there wouldn't be an America. And thats 18th. Then again thats America, not desnly populated western Europe

Impossible would be like 1914 or whenever good fighter planes that shot bullets were invented

2 hours ago, T and A said:

I am not even sure, it would work in the 11th century. He may be able to defeat europes military at that time, but no christian european would bend the knee to what they might view as Satan himself with his demon brides. He could only be king of ashes, but never rule over the people he conquered.

I would have thought the same about the Faith and Westeros. Then again Im surprised Aegon conquered Westeros to begin with. I blame it on foolish Stark and a child lord in the Vale

1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

If Aegon I had teamed up with the dying Byzantine Empire, and prevented that death at the hands of the Ottomans perhaps he could have inspired loyalty. Constantinople with dragons sounds fearsome. 

Idk, Constantinople was the new Rome. Aegons alot of things but Caesers successor isnt one of them. 

Also the Ottomans werent really feared until they took Istanbul

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, Constantinople was the new Rome. Aegons alot of things but Caesers successor isnt one of them. 

Also the Ottomans werent really feared until they took Istanbul

True - but you would think that a once great empire with only their capital and surrounding areas remaining would be glad for a dude and sisters to show up with their dragons. The magnate families would have quite happily accommodated them, I think. Perhaps an emperor would have to have been blinded/tonsured or exiled for it to happen tho.

But it's not like that hadn't happened already either LOL

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29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Then again Im surprised Aegon conquered Westeros to begin with. I blame it on foolish Stark and a child lord in the Vale

What? This is utterly ridiculous :blink: when all the great lords of Westeros had bent the knee or were killed…

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35 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

True - but you would think that a once great empire with only their capital and surrounding areas remaining would be glad for a dude and sisters to show up with their dragons. The magnate families would have quite happily accommodated them, I think. Perhaps an emperor would have to have been blinded/tonsured or exiled for it to happen tho.

But it's not like that hadn't happened already either LOL

Lol exactly.

Yea for sure some would want Targaryen to take the reins, like the Tullys or Hightowers, Im just not sure its in Aegons interest to continue a dynasty, as opposed to starting from scratch.

8 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

What? This is utterly ridiculous :blink: when all the great lords of Westeros had bent the knee or were killed…

Not Dorne. If Stark stayed in the North and led gorrila like tactics, like the Crangormen do, Aegon wouldnt be able to conquer the second half of Westeros. Especially with their newly created army of questionable loyalty

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29 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Lol, we sure are jumping around the map a lot. Maybe we should decide where they start?

I vote for Dragon Base Corsica.  :pirate:

Corsica just makes me think of Monsieur N. 

Aegpoleon?

Malta would be a badass place to start too. Did it have all those awesome fortifications in the 15th century though?

So shall we think of some places to exile Aegon when he gets defeated? 

Lundy! Or maybe somewhere in the Outer Hebrides?

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Corsica just makes me think of Monsieur N. 

Aegpoleon?

 

Nah, that sounds like some weird flaming dessert.

ETA: Napolaegon? :wacko:

 

14 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Malta would be a badass place to start too. Did it have all those awesome fortifications in the 15th century though?

 

Many if not all. However, Malta is too small to sustain three full grown, hunting dragons. Although, I suppose that they could just pop over to Sicily.

 

14 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

So shall we think of some places to exile Aegon when he gets defeated? 

 

Detroit?

Edited by Three-Fingered Pete

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17 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Many if not all. However, Malta is too small to sustain three full grown, hunting dragons. Although, I suppose that they could just pop over to Sicily.

Lots of potential chow in that general vicinity.

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11 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Pretty much what @Ran said.

On the other hand, demons are hard to fight. Ask the Aztecs. 

Aegon would need first to find a place to build up a coalition safely and make alliances.

Spain in 15 century is not a bad bet, as long as it is before the reconquest and Aegon and his sisters help to through back the Catholics out of the peninsula and start to build up a rich kingdom. Then I'd pull a Harrenhal with Rome.

 

I think you are mistaking Spain of the 15th century to that of a different time period. While Castile suffered from Civil War in the middle of the 14th century, it was a regional power in the 15th. Not to mention that Aragon (not to be confused with Aragorn LotR fans) was a Mediterranean power at this point and Iberian neighbor Portugal a maritime power. 

 

6 hours ago, Alarich II said:

It depends. Towards the end of the 15th century, cannons were pretty much used in most bigger campaigns and cannon technology made big leaps from the beginning to the end. Already during Hussite Wars and also in the latter stages of the Hundred Years War, in the first half of the 15th century, mobile (horse drawn) field artillery was used. Perhaps the very early 15th century was the very last time that Aegon could have conquered even a smaller piece of the European cake.

The use of dragons would mainly be that for reconnaisance, bombing (out of cannon reach) and rapid deploymend of troops (transport). 3 dragons would not be enough.

You should read the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik if you are intrested in those kind of scenarios;

There would be casualties sure but the Dragons would go down. From what we know, the non-magical technology of the Westerosi is inferior to that of Western Europe at this stage.

 

If you want to make this a legitimate fight I would break it down from Europe to a smaller region. From there, a specific time period where there is more turbulence.

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