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Andals of Essos: What happened to them and are there any Andal societies that remain in Essos?

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Posted (edited)

As to the iron question: Westeros and the First Men had iron. The Iron Islands are full of it. The Andals brought knowledge of STEEL. 

Iron swords are usable, though brittle and they don’t keep a sharp edge as well. Steel is far more flexible and keeps its edge far better. 

So yes, the First Men had iron. They even used it regularly (WOIAF does seem to imply that only the Ironborn used iron swords though). But the Andals brought new and better methods for smelting and alloying and whatever else is needed to make STEEL from the iron available in Westeros. 

Edited by Jak Scaletongue
Grammar

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Posted (edited)

While Calgacus accused Romans of creating deserts and calling them peace, Romans actually were not doing it at a large scale.

Yes, the urban areas of Carthage and Corinth were razed and ploughed (though not salted) and left desolate for a century.

But the Romans did not make the rest of Africa a desert! They took it over for their latifundia, if now ploughed by their slaves...

 

Whereas there has not been a law on Rhoyne for a thousand years - since Valyrian conquest.

While Sorrows were cursed with greyscale, rest of Rhoyne was not. Yet Ar Noy and Ny Sar stayed in ruin - the Valyrians did not send lords and estate stewards to govern their now slaves on Rhoyne.

The northwest of Essos where Braavos was founded could not have been well administered by Valyria in order for Braavos to stay a secret for centuries. Even Hag´s Mire in Westeros had a lord - a Frey bastard dropped in to try Chett.

If fishing villages at Braavos lagoon had been governed by Pentos, like estate stewards of some Pentosi nobleman regularly dropping in to collect scanty taxes, they would have reported the suspicious strangers (as turned out, fugitive slaves) in a few months, not centuries.

If city of Braavos could stay a secret from Valyria for centuries then a surviving Andal petty lordship in the same region could have done the same.

Edited by Jaak

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I was re-reading some of the sections on the Free Cities in world. I think there is some indication in there that both Norvos and Pentos were originally settled by Andals. Lorath as well was settled by Andals at some point. Certainly many Andals remained in Essos and have been integrated into these three cities at the least.

As to what happened to their keeps and castles - I think the story of Qarlon the Great offers a clue. He tried to establish himself as King of All Andals until the dragonlords rode forth and burned him out. This mighty king had a wooden keep. I think it's likely that other petty kings among the Andals also did not build in stone. After four thousand years give or take a couple thousand, these wooden keeps wouldn't be around any longer.

Although the Andals were more advanced in terms of metalwork than the First Men, we have some evidence that they weren't much as builders. Most of the great castles we know of date from before the Andal invasion of Westeros. The one that we know of that was built after and by an Andal king is the Eyrie and the world book says that the Arryn king who built it was inspired to do so after seeing Casterly Rock and the High Tower.

Based on how the Andals and First Men have become one people in the southern kingdoms of Westeros, I think it is safe to say that that timespan has also been long enough for the Andals remaining in Essos to integrate with the various peoples populating the Free Cities.

 

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17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

I was re-reading some of the sections on the Free Cities in world. I think there is some indication in there that both Norvos and Pentos were originally settled by Andals. Lorath as well was settled by Andals at some point.

In case of Lorath, Gessio reports Lorath bent the knee to Valyria, while Fire and Blood reports Scouring with no survivors on island of Lorath, in some detail.

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Certainly many Andals remained in Essos and have been integrated into these three cities at the least.

No confirmation in case of Lorath.

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

As to what happened to their keeps and castles - I think the story of Qarlon the Great offers a clue. He tried to establish himself as King of All Andals until the dragonlords rode forth and burned him out. This mighty king had a wooden keep. I think it's likely that other petty kings among the Andals also did not build in stone. After four thousand years give or take a couple thousand, these wooden keeps wouldn't be around any longer.

A thousand five hundred, not four thousand. Qarlon was still in Lorath 4500 years after other Andals had gone to Vale.

Qarlon and Lorath were burnt out. But the mainland, the petty kings who had been independent till Qarlon conquered them, were not.

When did Andal kings of the mainland, from Axe to Pentos, finally stop building new wooden keeps as their old ones rotted?

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Based on how the Andals and First Men have become one people in the southern kingdoms of Westeros, I think it is safe to say that that timespan has also been long enough for the Andals remaining in Essos to integrate with the various peoples populating the Free Cities.

Which specifically?

Like, I´d be looking at the coast between Braavos and Lorath - and the hills inland. When did Andals finally integrate with Braavos?

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On 4/12/2019 at 4:35 PM, Jaak said:

Productivity of lands, yes.

There have been multiple politically motivated campaigns to destroy castles. England had one under Henry II, one under Cromwell, and one under Attlee. Other countries have had theirs. I don´t see anything odd about Flatlands of Pentos having had such.

It may have been dragonfire. Or it may not have been as direct. If the lords were making a decision to stay in Pentos and not come back, they might have actively ordered their castles demolished and only basic accommodation for lowly estate stewards left. Or they may just have refused to authorize the expenditure to repair and replace their wooden halls as they rotted.

None of this is reflective of our historical record, and makes no sense within the world of Planetos, either.

The Andals are clearly an aggressive, warring people.  Letting your castle fall into ruin means losing your lands.  This was the entire point of having a castle; it gives you the ability to project force into the surrounding countryside.  Moreover, castles are a symbol of status, wealth, and power.  Having a powerful keep positions you as wealthier and more resilient to military aggression than your neighbor.  Those are powerful social tools; the same kind of status-seeking is what drove the nobility in Europe to ruin for much of the Early Modern period (not to mention before and after).  Hell, Louis XIV built Versailles to keep his nobles under his eye, and instituted ornate court procedures to keep them too bankrupt from raising an army.

The castle-destroying campaigns you mention were all top-down efforts by a higher authority.  It makes no sense that Pentoshi Andals would all willingly collaborate in a campaign of castle destruction.  If it was the Valyrians insisting that castles be destroyed, or doing the destroying themselves, then that is another story.  But adds additional credence to the idea that the culture of "Andalos" today is not synonymous with "ancient" Andalos.  The Valyrians came in and knocked it all down, literally in some cases.  Else, why give a shit about castles and whatever?  They wanted to break down local power and reintroduce their own system.  Over time, this obviously will corrupt the local Andals, as other Valyrian settlers move in and intermarry.

Long story short, there is literally no reason to believe that a bunch of Andal nobles migrated to Pentos, and then just up and decided they didn't want to maintain their castles any more.  This is the exact opposite of in-universe and real world history.  Nobles don't go into trade, not willingly.  They care to excess about social status and prestige.  And in a feudal culture, they want to maintain and expand their ability to fight with their neighbors.  For proof, look at Westeros, which has thousands of years of extant Andal culture.  The nobility of the Vale is the stuffiest of all, obsessed with prestige to the point of genteel poverty for both.  It would take an outside force to change that; Valyria.  

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Posted (edited)
On 3/19/2019 at 3:05 AM, ninewinter said:

In the chapter 5 of the Dance with Dragons, Tyrion travelled in the lands of what was Andalos. I'm quite intrigued at what happened to their kingdoms and petty lordships? 

c. When did they arrive to Westeros 4,000 years ago or 2,000? Seems to me the later is most likely and the 4k is just the classic exaggeration/misinterpretation or the limited data available for a medieval scholars such as it is in the maesters of Westeros. 

 

 

C "There is many evidence and quotes of george rr martin that the timeline is not the correct one. My own main evidence is the grey king in the world of ice and fire, who was the first high king of the iron island, after him 38 men of house greyiron ruled the iron islands till the Andals came and the half more of other houses, makes a total of 57. so before the Andals came 57 high kings were chosen in the kingsmood.
When the greyking really lived 10.000 years ago, than those high kings lived inhumanly long. 2000/57 avarage of 35 years would be more logical. When the Andals came, the greyirons were extinct. If all the stories of the greyirons were 10.000 years ago, ther is now way we got so detailed information of them.

There  is more evidence, that the time line at least is much shorter. Durrandon had not lived for thousand of years, i think there is only one and that is the first. Durran and a first men warrior king that build a keep that later became storms, So also here the timeline is much shorter. The same with the other houses with a strange history if you put it in time perspective. But with the Iron Born the world of ice and fire give us more inside information in how many kings has ruled the islands.    "

 

 

 

This is what i wrote some months ago about the arriving of the Andals, sorry for my bad english. 

Edited by Seaserpent

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6 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

There is many evidence and quotes of george rr martin that the timeline is not the correct one. My own main evidence is the grey king in the world of ice and fire, who was the first high king of the iron island, after him 38 men of house greyiron ruled the iron islands till the Andals came and the half more of other houses, makes a total of 57. so before the Andals came 57 high kings were chosen in the kingsmood.
When the greyking really lived 10.000 years ago, than those high kings lived inhumanly long. 2000/57 avarage of 35 years would be more logical. When the Andals came, the greyirons were extinct. If all the stories of the greyirons were 10.000 years ago, ther is now way we got so detailed information of them.

how do you know there were 38 Greyiron High Kings? if you are correct with that number and the 57 number, an average of 35 year reigns is absurd. That would mean that the average king was crowned at a young age and lived to reign until old age. For example, if a king is 20 when crowned, he'd be 55 when he reaches the 35th year of his reign. 55 is pretty old but not ancient. However, sometimes old men become king and sometimes young men die violent deaths, particularly if they live a violent lifestyle. It's just not plausible - the 17 Targaryen kings had an average reign of 17 years.

I think there a couple other things to keep in mind too. One is that the Grey King obviously didn't rule for 1000 years. Neither did Durran Godsgrief or Garth Greenhand. They are legends and may have never existed in the first place. We have legends like this too - kings or leaders of one sort or another who probably never actually existed some of whom reigned for absurd lengths of time.

And the other thing is that between when the Grey King was supposed to have ruled and when the kingsmoot era began, there was a long period of time when the Ironborn didn't choose a high king, but each island was ruled individually. This may have gone on for quite a long time before Urras Greyiron was chosen as the first High King.

Also, there was at least a thousand years between the Andals first landing on the Fingers and then reaching the Iron Islands. The Andal Invasion was nothing like Aegon's Conquest. When they did reach the Iron Islands, that may have marked the end of the Greyiron dynasty, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Hoare dynasty began immediately. There may have been long periods of contest, when the islands were again split amongst themselves. We don't really know the details.

 

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On 4/23/2019 at 7:05 PM, cpg2016 said:

None of this is reflective of our historical record, and makes no sense within the world of Planetos, either.

The Andals are clearly an aggressive, warring people.  Letting your castle fall into ruin means losing your lands.  This was the entire point of having a castle; it gives you the ability to project force into the surrounding countryside.  Moreover, castles are a symbol of status, wealth, and power.  Having a powerful keep positions you as wealthier and more resilient to military aggression than your neighbor.  Those are powerful social tools; the same kind of status-seeking is what drove the nobility in Europe to ruin for much of the Early Modern period (not to mention before and after).  Hell, Louis XIV built Versailles to keep his nobles under his eye, and instituted ornate court procedures to keep them too bankrupt from raising an army.

And incidentally effected one of castle-destroying waves.

Quite some castles of France were destroyed or slighted actively on orders of Louis XIV or his governors.

Others were allowed to fall into ruin because the lord could not afford both repairing the castle and living high at Versailles.

And yet others were allowed to fall into ruin because the lord spent his money on building an indefensible baroque palace and garden instead.

On 4/23/2019 at 7:05 PM, cpg2016 said:

The castle-destroying campaigns you mention were all top-down efforts by a higher authority.  It makes no sense that Pentoshi Andals would all willingly collaborate in a campaign of castle destruction.  If it was the Valyrians insisting that castles be destroyed, or doing the destroying themselves, then that is another story.  But adds additional credence to the idea that the culture of "Andalos" today is not synonymous with "ancient" Andalos. 

Agreed.

On 4/23/2019 at 7:05 PM, cpg2016 said:

The Valyrians came in and knocked it all down, literally in some cases.  Else, why give a shit about castles and whatever?  They wanted to break down local power and reintroduce their own system.  Over time, this obviously will corrupt the local Andals, as other Valyrian settlers move in and intermarry.

Long story short, there is literally no reason to believe that a bunch of Andal nobles migrated to Pentos, and then just up and decided they didn't want to maintain their castles any more.  This is the exact opposite of in-universe and real world history.  Nobles don't go into trade, not willingly.  They care to excess about social status and prestige.  And in a feudal culture, they want to maintain and expand their ability to fight with their neighbors.  For proof, look at Westeros, which has thousands of years of extant Andal culture.  The nobility of the Vale is the stuffiest of all, obsessed with prestige to the point of genteel poverty for both.  It would take an outside force to change that; Valyria.  

Not really.

Look at 17th century England.

Yes, Cromwell did slighting of castles.

But before that...

Charles I before Great Rebellion ordered English gentry to go home and not stay in London and build houses in West End. The gentry disobeyed.

They went to London because they wanted to - and could. Once the Tudors enforced law and order on England, a gentleman no longer needed to expand or maintain his ability to fight with his neighbours - he could just sue his neighbour in courts of London and rely on the government to enforce court judgments. It was cheaper than actual fighting ability. And the gentlemen who lived high life in London´s West End, Dublin, Bath, Brighton, Grand Tour to Riviera and Italy and relied on middle class status estate managers to remit pounds to owner who never showed up wanted it that way. Nor were they actually and directly involved in trade.

Illyrio is called a cheesemonger, but are all, or most, magisters of Pentos such? In Flatlands, we hear of tillers and toilers bound to land - Illyrio owns some. How much of Pentosi magisters are people whose income comes mostly from absentee landowning in Flatlands?

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

how do you know there were 38 Greyiron High Kings? if you are correct with that number and the 57 number, an average of 35 year reigns is absurd. That would mean that the average king was crowned at a young age and lived to reign until old age. For example, if a king is 20 when crowned, he'd be 55 when he reaches the 35th year of his reign. 55 is pretty old but not ancient. However, sometimes old men become king and sometimes young men die violent deaths, particularly if they live a violent lifestyle. It's just not plausible - the 17 Targaryen kings had an average reign of 17 years.

I think there a couple other things to keep in mind too. One is that the Grey King obviously didn't rule for 1000 years. Neither did Durran Godsgrief or Garth Greenhand. They are legends and may have never existed in the first place. We have legends like this too - kings or leaders of one sort or another who probably never actually existed some of whom reigned for absurd lengths of time.

And the other thing is that between when the Grey King was supposed to have ruled and when the kingsmoot era began, there was a long period of time when the Ironborn didn't choose a high king, but each island was ruled individually. This may have gone on for quite a long time before Urras Greyiron was chosen as the first High King.

Also, there was at least a thousand years between the Andals first landing on the Fingers and then reaching the Iron Islands. The Andal Invasion was nothing like Aegon's Conquest. When they did reach the Iron Islands, that may have marked the end of the Greyiron dynasty, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Hoare dynasty began immediately. There may have been long periods of contest, when the islands were again split amongst themselves. We don't really know the details.

 

In the book its said there are 38 Greyiron kings that ruled after Andal Invasion and they are 2/3 of all kings so that makes it around 57. Can be 1 more 1 less. You make one fault: If king A is 20 he has a son of maybe 2, when the king is 40 and dies his son B would be king at 22. If B has a son with 22 and dies at 90. The son would be king at 68. SO you count the year of the lifespan of a king not the years he rules. 

But we both agree that with an invasion of 4000 years ago the avarage age of a king would be 70 and thats not possible, but 35 seems reasonable!! If it took a 1000 years to conquer the iron islands what seems strange(could be also not true) than they were 52 avarage. We allready know many king that got quit old and some died young not as teenager but young, so everything between 35 en 52 seems normal. If it was 4000 years it just seems too much of a stretch. But read first the episodes in the worldbook carefull about the Greyirons who came with the Andals!

Edited by Seaserpent

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5 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

In the book its said there are 38 Greyiron kings that ruled after Andal Invasion and they are 2/3 of all kings so that makes it around 57. Can be 1 more 1 less. You make one fault: If king A is 20 he has a son of maybe 2, when the king is 40 and dies his son B would be king at 22. If B has a son with 22 and dies at 90. The son would be king at 68. SO you count the year of the lifespan of a king not the years he rules. 

 But we both agree that with an invasion of 4000 years ago the avarage age of a king would be 70 and thats not possible, but 35 seems reasonable!! If it took a 1000 years to conquer the iron islands what seems strange(could be also not true) than they were 52 avarage. We allready know many king that got quit old and some died young not as teenager but young, so everything between 35 en 52 seems normal. If it was 4000 years it just seems too much of a stretch. But read first the episodes in the worldbook carefull about the Greyirons who came with the Andals!

A king's reign accounts for the years he actually reigns. if you are summing the lifespans of every king you are counting years twice. for example, if king A reigns for 20 years, and then his son ascends the throne for another 15 years, that's 35 years together. it doesn't matter what age the king and his son were. their combined reign lasted 35 years.

I found what you were referencing with your 38 number:

Quote

The Greyirons were amongst the oldest and most renowned of the great houses of the Iron Islands. During the long age of the kingsmoot, the captains and kings bestowed driftwood crowns on no fewer than thirty-eight Greyirons, according to Haereg, giving them twice as many high kings as any other house.

The era of the driftwood kings was before the dynastic reign of the Greyirons which was supposed to have lasted 1000 years. Before that, each High King was chosen by kingsmoot. That there were at least 38, and that's twice as many as any other house, means that House Hoare could have had about 19 as could House Blacktyde. There were many other houses that had members chosen to wear the driftwood crown as well, so certainly more than 57 although these numbers refer to High Kings before the rule of the Greyiron dynasty.

So the Andals arrive about 1000 years after landing on the Fingers. Soon after the rule of the Greyirons ends and their house is destroyed. House Hoare then rules as King of the Iron Islands, which brings us up to the time of Aegon's Conquest. The question about how long ago the Andals arrived is really about how long the Hoare dynasty ruled the Iron Islands. All the other figurings about the Ironborn have to do with the time before the arrival of the Andals.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

The era of the driftwood kings was before the dynastic reign of the Greyirons which was supposed to have lasted 1000 years. Before that, each High King was chosen by kingsmoot. That there were at least 38, and that's twice as many as any other house, means that House Hoare could have had about 19 as could House Blacktyde. There were many other houses that had members chosen to wear the driftwood crown as well, so certainly more than 57 although these numbers refer to High Kings before the rule of the Greyiron dynasty.

So the Andals arrive about 1000 years after landing on the Fingers. Soon after the rule of the Greyirons ends and their house is destroyed. House Hoare then rules as King of the Iron Islands, which brings us up to the time of Aegon's Conquest. The question about how long ago the Andals arrived is really about how long the Hoare dynasty ruled the Iron Islands. All the other figurings about the Ironborn have to do with the time before the arrival of the Andals.

I have the book in dutch so maybe they translated it a bit wrong about twice as many as any other house. But still the Andal invasion seems not that long ago as they mention in the beginning.
 

Edited by Seaserpent

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On 4/26/2019 at 9:26 AM, Seaserpent said:

But still the Andal invasion seems not that long ago as they mention in the beginning.

Well, I didn't think there's much dates mentioned for the Andal invasion, except in relation to other events which we can't be so sure when they happened. A few of the things the conclusions I drew based on the World book: the Andals came a significant amount of time before Nymeria and her Rhoynar; they left Essos when Valyria was at its height and was beginning to expand north and colonize Essos; the timing between the early landings on the Fingers and the expansion into the rest of Westeros lasted at least a thousand years.

And here's what Hoster Blackwood says in ADwD:

Quote

Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.

So, the scholars of Westeros believe the Andals arrived between two thousand and four thousand years ago. That's fine, except I feel like there would be better records of this event if it was closer to two thousand than four. Two thousand is a long time ago to be sure, but it's not that long ago to forget so quickly. The Citadel is certainly that old and we seem to have some amount of accuracy on even older events. I think part of the problem might be that the invasion lasted a lot longer than the way it is described.

It's possible that Andals crossed the sea in waves that continued over hundreds of years as the situation in Essos became more untenable and the Andals in Westeros thrived. They were a seafaring people and the Narrow Sea is relatively narrow after all, so why would they just abandon one continent for the other in one wave, especially considering they do not seem to have been a united people at any time in history.

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