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Plain, Simple Tailor

Characters who deserve to DIE

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On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 10:41 PM, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

 

  • Euron Greyjoy 

Not only is he an evil human, he's also a drag on the plot who should never have been introduced in the first place. 

Just like Daario?

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1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I completely disagree with this.  You know who deserves to die.  Robb Stark.  

So you support Roose the Serial Rapist and Torture and Walder the Pedophile? 

18 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Arya, for cockblocking Gendry in the Riverlands.

Arya, clearly the worst person ever for stopping a man from sleeping with his own sister

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1 hour ago, Eddard Waters said:

So you support Roose the Serial Rapist and Torture and Walder the Pedophile? 

The Roose and Walder Fan Club! So scary... :eek:

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On 3/24/2019 at 9:29 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I completely disagree with this.  You know who deserves to die.  Robb Stark.  

I agree Robb had an assassination coming to him... Wedding Jayne Westerling and breaking that vow was a fatal error and terrible judgement, and he should have also figured out a way to placate Rickard Karstark, even prior to the murder of Tion and Willem.  

 

But IMO, violating guest rights is the westeros version of deploying WMDs and violating the Geneva convention.  Absolute no-no.  

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1 minute ago, Mordant Jester said:

I agree Robb had an assassination coming to him... Wedding Jayne Westerling and breaking that vow was a fatal error and terrible judgement, and he should have also figured out a way to placate Rickard Karstark, even prior to the murder of Tion and Willem.  

 

But IMO, violating guest rights is the westeros version of deploying WMDs and violating the Geneva convention.  Absolute no-no.  

Just because somebody makes a bad decision because they are a 16 year-old doesn’t mean they deserve to be brutally murdered. 

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Posted (edited)

He is/was the King, and in open rebellion against a King that many/most held as the legitimate claimant.  Every decision is perilous and death is always at hand, especially in Westeros and especially while participating in something called the "War of Five Kings".  There were a few glaring errors that cost him friends and exposed his rule.  The Frey wedding vow (for someone who provided little in way of clout in the way of political, financial, or levies, Beheading a major Northern lord, and sending Theon back to his daddy are among the unforced mistakes.  A nice assist to his mother for going rogue and releasing Jaime Lannister.

It stunk that the King in the North was snuffed out like that.  It made it more tragic that it was pretty preventable in the build up. It also leads to endless 'what if' thoughts that will never be answered.

 

I havent been here much/long, but Im sure this conversation has been held countless times, lol.

 

But, as I said, the method the assassination was executed is a low-blow and flies in the face of what little gentlemanly order exists in the seven Kingdoms.

Edited by Mordant Jester

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21 minutes ago, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Just because somebody makes a bad decision because they are a 16 year-old doesn’t mean they deserve to be brutally murdered. 

Short and sweet and to the point. Very well said! Sadly, for some readers the dislike of certain characters/houses comes before anything else. 

9 minutes ago, Mordant Jester said:

He is/was the King, and in open rebellion against a King that many/most held as the legitimate claimant.  Every decision is perilous and death is always at hand, especially in Westeros and especially while participating in something called the "War of Five Kings". 

:agree:

Also jives really well w/ the theme of actions and decisions having consequences. 

9 minutes ago, Mordant Jester said:

There were a few glaring errors that cost him friends and exposed his rule.  The Frey wedding vow (for someone who provided little in way of clout in the way of political, financial, or levies, Beheading a major Northern lord, and sending Theon back to his daddy are among the unforced mistakes.  A nice assist to his mother for going rogue and releasing Jaime Lannister.

Mostly agree here... I do however think the execution of Rickard Karstark, under the circumstances, was the right call. May not have helped him much, but still. 

The issue w/ Cat is a lot more complicated IMO. Keeping in mind that hindsight is 20/20... What was Robb supposed to do w/ his mother who has just lost her husband and sons, and is trying to save her daughters? Also worth remembering that Cat warned him against sending Theon to deal w/ Balon, but Robb refused to listen to her. Should he have executed her? Absolutely not imo. 

9 minutes ago, Mordant Jester said:

It stunk that the King in the North was snuffed out like that.  It made it more tragic that it was pretty preventable in the build up. It also leads to endless 'what if' thoughts that will never be answered.

True.

9 minutes ago, Mordant Jester said:

I havent been here much/long, but Im sure this conversation has been held countless times, lol.

On and off. And it’s an interesting discussion, one that the author deliberately presents to the reader. But the problem w/ topics like this is that they inevitably turn into a Jon/Stark hate thread. :rolleyes:

9 minutes ago, Mordant Jester said:

But, as I said, the method the assassination was executed is a low-blow and flies in the face of what little gentlemanly order exists in the seven Kingdoms.

Exactly, and it’s a particularly cruel and mean overkill as well. 

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2 hours ago, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Just because somebody makes a bad decision because they are a 16 year-old doesn’t mean they deserve to be brutally murdered. 

 

While this is true in a general sense, Robb wasn't just an ordinary sixteen year old kid. He was a king, and that places you in a precarious position, either by your supporters or your detractors (or both), from the moment you are recognized as such. Accepting the responsibility of leadership absolves people of thinking of you as a child anymore. Not acting in the best interests of your cause can be deadly. On a fundamental level, Robb should have acted more appropriately. Also on a fundamental level, Robb never should have trusted Walder Frey, but hindsight is 20/20 and our story wouldn't be as compelling if Robb had been more prescient.

Your above statement could be applied to Joffery, Jon and Dany as well, but that didn't stop anyone in the slightest from killing/trying to kill them. I'm not sure if GRRM is saying that teenagers are basically idiots or if the story threads are just circumstantially woven that way, but his young'uns have a really poor track record so far.

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I think the only person on that list who is genuinely evil is Euron - Crow's Eye - Greyjoy. He goes to enormous lengths to ensure his victims suffer immeasurably for no other reason than he relishes in his power over them and see's himself as godlike.

The others on your list are just products of a harsh and unforgiving society. Rape and misogyny are commonplace and it goes almost completely unchallenged. It's shit. For Roose, rape was his 'right'. But if were focusing on Westeros and who the truly evil people are, I think Euron wins by a thousand miles. This man knows no bounds. Roose and Ramsey are BASIC compared to him. Kill these two and there's another pair of dirtbags to take their place and do the same messed-up things. I don't think they are truly set-apart or unique in Westeros. 

Roose makes an attempt at playing the game, so to speak. He understands the value of diplomacy so we can have some small hope that there would be an effort on his part to make the North, "A peaceful land, a quiet people." He's a shitty, shitty lord but not particularly evil. 

Ramsey is horrid. But he's basically a thug and he's somewhat predictable. A ferocious idiot. If there was but one competent Stark around he'd of been executed already. I think Wyman has something in mind for Ramsey. 

LF. Even Varys can't figure this man out. I think it's safest to reserve judgement until we know his end-game. I mean he's probably a complete arsehole who enjoys screwing over the 7K and getting paid to do so. But maybe there's another reason? Or a motive we don't fully understand yet.

As for Randyll Tarly. He is a POS but he's also the model Lord for his era. Albeit a harsh one. He's a Lord on the Dornish Marches and there's a 'type' for that role. His job and life's work is to command armies and remain vigilant against the Dornish. If he fails in this, then there's every chance that there'll be untold amounts of rape and murder. The Dornish do not play nice, if the history is to be believed. He is harsh, unforgiving and entirely unromantic. I don't like him. But he's not "evil". You just have to recount all of the attempts he made to turn Sam into a fighter to understand his complete ineptitude. If he is "Evil" then so too is half of Westeros. He's mean, but he's also one of the most competent generals in Westeros. The realm may have some need of him.

Valar Morghulis! 
 

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On 3/25/2019 at 11:11 AM, Mordant Jester said:

I agree Robb had an assassination coming to him... Wedding Jayne Westerling and breaking that vow was a fatal error and terrible judgement, and he should have also figured out a way to placate Rickard Karstark, even prior to the murder of Tion and Willem.  

 

But IMO, violating guest rights is the westeros version of deploying WMDs and violating the Geneva convention.  Absolute no-no.  

It was the only way for Walder to punish Robb.  Imagine a scenario in which the Starks and the Lannisters worked out a deal.  The Freys will be at the mercy of the Tullys, who will side with the Starks even if they were wrong to break their oath, and they will be punished for leaving the battlefield after Robb betrayed them.  The Freys had two choices.  Take it up the ass and support the Starks even after Robb's disrespect.  Because the Tullys would punish them even though it was Robb who committed the insult.  The Freys had to make sure they came out on the winning side and the Stark-Tully houses had to fall in order for them to be safe.  The Freys left the battlefield after Robb broke his oath.  I don't blame them.  But Robb and the Tullys surely would because it won't be about who was at fault.  

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On 3/19/2019 at 1:28 PM, Bullrout said:

Agreed.  Roose killed the squatters.  Raped Ramsay's mom and hanged her husband. 

The sabotaging of Robb's army was okay because the Starks were rebels.  Roose had a higher duty to the king over Robb.  Rebellion is wrong by law.  

I've seen a lot of dumb, anti-Stark/Bolton apologist stuff in my few days on this forum, but that has to be the dumbest I've read. 

 

As for people who should die:

Euron for being a rapist murdering asshole. 

Littlefinger for being a traitor, starting a war, and everything he did to Jeyne Poole 

Cersei for being a traitor, murderer, hypocrite, and terrible mother 

Walder Frey because he utterly wasted all of his children's potential and broke guest right. And is just an asshole. 

Falia Flower, for making her half-sisters and nieces (some of whom were children) serve ironborn in the nude. Maybe earns a pardon from suffering. 

Ramsay Bolton: For everything, and being a traitor. And abusing two wives. 

Roose Bolton: For being a traitor (He swore his oaths to Robb, and to Ned. FIRST) 

Hizdahr: For being a slaver, and betraying Dany, and calling the girl a bed slave, and being a rapist. 

Left-Hand Lucas Codd and all the other Ironborn who don't bend the knee to Theon/Asha: For being idiots and rapists. 

The Mountain's Men: Duh 

The non-Rosby Freys: Traitors, breakers of guest right, and assholes. 

The Weeper: So many reasons

Boros Blount and Meryn Trant: For being jerks and cowards and false knights. 

The Kettleblacks: For being jerks and cowards and false knights, and because their names are so interchangeable that I can't remember which one killed the High Septon. 

The rest of the Bastard's Boys: And most Bolton men. For being rapists and traitors. 

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2 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

I've seen a lot of dumb, anti-Stark/Bolton apologist stuff in my few days on this forum, but that has to be the dumbest I've read. 

 

As for people who should die:

Euron for being a rapist murdering asshole. 

Littlefinger for being a traitor, starting a war, and everything he did to Jeyne Poole 

Cersei for being a traitor, murderer, hypocrite, and terrible mother 

Walder Frey because he utterly wasted all of his children's potential and broke guest right. And is just an asshole. 

Falia Flower, for making her half-sisters and nieces (some of whom were children) serve ironborn in the nude. Maybe earns a pardon from suffering. 

Ramsay Bolton: For everything, and being a traitor. And abusing two wives. 

Roose Bolton: For being a traitor (He swore his oaths to Robb, and to Ned. FIRST) 

Hizdahr: For being a slaver, and betraying Dany, and calling the girl a bed slave, and being a rapist. 

Left-Hand Lucas Codd and all the other Ironborn who don't bend the knee to Theon/Asha: For being idiots and rapists. 

The Mountain's Men: Duh 

The non-Rosby Freys: Traitors, breakers of guest right, and assholes. 

The Weeper: So many reasons

Boros Blount and Meryn Trant: For being jerks and cowards and false knights. 

The Kettleblacks: For being jerks and cowards and false knights, and because their names are so interchangeable that I can't remember which one killed the High Septon. 

The rest of the Bastard's Boys: And most Bolton men. For being rapists and traitors. 

Dont know if you have read thedamphair chapter from Winds but all desire for her to suffer withered and died for me after reading it

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7 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Dont know if you have read thedamphair chapter from Winds but all desire for her to suffer withered and died for me after reading it

Yeah, that one was tough to read...

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48 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Dont know if you have read thedamphair chapter from Winds but all desire for her to suffer withered and died for me after reading it

I have not read the chapter but I know its contents, which is why I say maybe earns her pardon through suffering. It really depends on the fate of her half-sisters and whether they ever get closure. Same with how while I like Asha, I can't respect her fully until she owns up to how her humiliation and treatment of her brother led to him being turned into Reek. Honestly if I could have one more chapter with Balon Greyjoy it would be to see his reaction to what he did to his own blood with his stupidity and jerkishness (I don't believe Balon will have changed much, but Aeron does say he looked older so maybe he did have a moment of realizing what he did.) 

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3 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

I've seen a lot of dumb, anti-Stark/Bolton apologist stuff in my few days on this forum, but that has to be the dumbest I've read. 

 

As for people who should die:

Euron for being a rapist murdering asshole. 

Littlefinger for being a traitor, starting a war, and everything he did to Jeyne Poole 

Cersei for being a traitor, murderer, hypocrite, and terrible mother 

Walder Frey because he utterly wasted all of his children's potential and broke guest right. And is just an asshole. 

Falia Flower, for making her half-sisters and nieces (some of whom were children) serve ironborn in the nude. Maybe earns a pardon from suffering. 

Ramsay Bolton: For everything, and being a traitor. And abusing two wives. 

Roose Bolton: For being a traitor (He swore his oaths to Robb, and to Ned. FIRST) 

Hizdahr: For being a slaver, and betraying Dany, and calling the girl a bed slave, and being a rapist. 

Left-Hand Lucas Codd and all the other Ironborn who don't bend the knee to Theon/Asha: For being idiots and rapists. 

The Mountain's Men: Duh 

The non-Rosby Freys: Traitors, breakers of guest right, and assholes. 

The Weeper: So many reasons

Boros Blount and Meryn Trant: For being jerks and cowards and false knights. 

The Kettleblacks: For being jerks and cowards and false knights, and because their names are so interchangeable that I can't remember which one killed the High Septon. 

The rest of the Bastard's Boys: And most Bolton men. For being rapists and traitors. 

The weeper for sure in the yunkai Nobles

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On 3/25/2019 at 11:25 AM, Mordant Jester said:

He is/was the King, and in open rebellion against a King that many/most held as the legitimate claimant.  Every decision is perilous and death is always at hand, especially in Westeros and especially while participating in something called the "War of Five Kings".  There were a few glaring errors that cost him friends and exposed his rule.  The Frey wedding vow (for someone who provided little in way of clout in the way of political, financial, or levies, Beheading a major Northern lord, and sending Theon back to his daddy are among the unforced mistakes.  A nice assist to his mother for going rogue and releasing Jaime Lannister.

It stunk that the King in the North was snuffed out like that.  It made it more tragic that it was pretty preventable in the build up. It also leads to endless 'what if' thoughts that will never be answered.

 

I havent been here much/long, but Im sure this conversation has been held countless times, lol.

 

But, as I said, the method the assassination was executed is a low-blow and flies in the face of what little gentlemanly order exists in the seven Kingdoms.

The Freys contributed a lot to Robb's cause.  They  had a right to be pissed at Robb.  And yes, the red wedding is a low blow, but if you're going to fight the Starks, it was the best method.  It limited the risks for the Freys and their allies.  

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