Jump to content
Mwm

Do you consider any of the characters killed off to be missed opportunities, or all well crafted storytelling decisions?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

From the histories to the main series there are a few I would’ve liked to have seen played out more at least before they were killed.

Edited by Mwm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mwm said:

From the histories to the main series there are a few I would’ve liked to have seen played out more at least before they were killed.

Such as?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Such as?

Oberyn...I think this one speaks for itself(especially since it would’ve side swiped the Dornish stuff in the past two books that many people didn’t care for...)

I’d have like to have seen one of the Blackfyres take the throne for a bit a little like Rhaenyras short stay in kings landing.

Call me crazy, but when I first started the series, I had an expectation in my mind for Robert and Ned to be the ones initially throwing back Daenerys, Robert having trouble fighting being so fat and Ned having a personal war within him about Jon. Having it go on for years with ground warfare waiting for the dragons to fully grow...the Lannisters using the conflict to take control. This would’ve changed the whole fabric of the plot of the series but if Martin pushed off some of the Lannister/Stark politics and got Dany there a lot quicker it might’ve solved a lot of problems he’s having now with the fucking meerens narrative treads. And have the others crawl up their ass just as the dragons reached maturity....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that they were killed off by the author to craft the future. There are quite a few characters whom alone could have led to massive changes in outcomes such as: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Renly Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Kevan Lannister, Eddard Stark, Robb Stark, Oberyn Martell, and Khal Drogo. 

Then you get to the slightly less important figures who would make smaller splashes, and it continues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Mwm said:

might’ve solved a lot of problems he’s having now with the fucking meerens narrative treads. And have the others crawl up their ass just as the dragons reached maturity....

 

I LOL'd at that. You have a point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Histories Baelor Breakspears was a waste i tell ya, but also so good for the story line to come. I felt after reading Fire and Blood and laena valyeron dying in childbirth was a waste. 

 

Main story Oberyn no one @me although i do like show Oberyn more was a waste but alas also done so well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oberyn is the biggest for me, regardless of what his death meant for the Dorne storyline, I loved his character and definitely felt like his story was incomplete, however, I believe that was the intention until Doran's plan is put into further motion.

 

Nimble Dick was cool, albeit minor. His death still had meaning though.

 

All in all, GRRM is very deliberate. I don't really feel like any of his in-story deaths were unnecessary or pointless. Doesn't mean I don't still wish some were around more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like Joffrey and Tywin were taken from us too soon.

They both absolutely had to go (and in the ways that they did) to move the plot forward, but I'd have really liked just a little more time to observe them together and explore their relationship. Not to mention seeing what short, sharp lessons Tywin had in mind to bring little Joff in line and how that would have all played out.

And yeah, I'll chuck my hat in for Oberyn too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Mwm said:

Oberyn

 

Stopped reading right there, I don't know what the rest of your post says, but I agree 100%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The fact that the Bolton’s have outlived Lord Tywin is a fucking travesty, but Tywin was a character who would always have a purpose, would always be a page turner, but I’d trade Roose and Ramsay for him all day long, their use by date has expired, especially with the emergence of Euron. I’d be sad to see the deaths of both Tywin and Stannis, two men who are no doubt monstrous but so wonderfully human, and in exchange we still have the Bolton’s and Euron

 

That said, long live Euron!

 

Oberyn strikes me as a killing machine who wouldn’t be anywhere near as compelling had he survived the trial, his thirst for vengeance and tragic fate made for better reading that the numerous brothel scenes that would have followed his victory

Edited by FitzChivalry Fartseer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the characters you mention (Oberyn, Tywin, Ned,...) were specifically conceived and created to die as they did from the beginning. And I'm convinced that a great part of the reason why they are so fondly remembered is precisely that they went "too soon" to their graves. They just had to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Robert Baratheon in the first volume to Jon Snow in the most recent.  They were all killed to move the plot forward in a satisfactory manner.  The author wanted to affect his readers on a more emotional level.  They were not taken too soon.  They were taken when their role in the story was complete.   Robert's head may be on Gregor's shoulder and Jon could come back as an ice wight but their roles as living humans are done.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

Stopped reading right there, I don't know what the rest of your post says, but I agree 100%

Two now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Shara said:

I feel like Joffrey and Tywin were taken from us too soon.

They both absolutely had to go (and in the ways that they did) to move the plot forward, but I'd have really liked just a little more time to observe them together and explore their relationship. Not to mention seeing what short, sharp lessons Tywin had in mind to bring little Joff in line and how that would have all played out.

And yeah, I'll chuck my hat in for Oberyn too.

I agree wholeheartedly about Tywin...

Joffrey, if the character was put to a different purpose could've worked wonders with what I suggested above, that said the way the series played out I would've like GRRM to stick with his original plan that was revealed in the pitch to his editor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Mwm said:

Call me crazy, but when I first started the series, I had an expectation in my mind for Robert and Ned to be the ones initially throwing back Daenerys, Robert having trouble fighting being so fat and Ned having a personal war within him about Jon. Having it go on for years with ground warfare waiting for the dragons to fully grow...the Lannisters using the conflict to take control. This would’ve changed the whole fabric of the plot of the series but if Martin pushed off some of the Lannister/Stark politics and got Dany there a lot quicker it might’ve solved a lot of problems he’s having now with the fucking meerens narrative treads. And have the others crawl up their ass just as the dragons reached maturity....

This was pretty close to my expectation, too. GRRM's very good at setting up a clear path or two for where the story will go and then making a sharp turn in a direction that couldn't have been foreseen but makes complete sense. I would have bailed on the series a long time ago if things went how I expected and it's a big reason I'm not big on predictions for the series.

GRRM's killing off characters who would have maintained the boring status quo of the thousands of years of Westerosi stagnation. All of his kiddo POVs were raised having been screwed over by that status quo in some way or just grew up completely outside of it. The ones we mostly have left will not be prioritizing perpetuating that status quo. He's setting up a huge cultural change and writing history which would get a big section in TWOIAF and other history books. It'd be a tremendous disappointment if this story would only merit a small sidebar which ended in something like "...the details of which are unimportant as everything returned to normal." 

I agree with GRRM's choices but I'll admit Oberyn's death feels weird now that the sellsword companies to which he was so tied are now becoming a big part of the series. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a superstition mentioned that the sandsnakes could bring Oberyn back.  Well?   Huh?  The world gets more magical all the time.   Are we going to let it get all the way down to animated pooper scoopers for stable boys before someone raises Oberyn?  Oh yeah , he was dealing with crushed cabeza at the end.   That'd impact his standard of living going forward.   Anyway.....

 

I've never wished for more Tywin because I recognized how lucky we were to see him go.   Dude had no natural predators.  He would have just outlasted and outmaneuvered everyone forever like the Putin of Westeros.

 

I wanted more shadow baby.   We never got to see shadow adult.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

This was pretty close to my expectation, too. GRRM's very good at setting up a clear path or two for where the story will go and then making a sharp turn in a direction that couldn't have been foreseen but makes complete sense. I would have bailed on the series a long time ago if things went how I expected and it's a big reason I'm not big on predictions for the series.

GRRM's killing off characters who would have maintained the boring status quo of the thousands of years of Westerosi stagnation. All of his kiddo POVs were raised having been screwed over by that status quo in some way or just grew up completely outside of it. The ones we mostly have left will not be prioritizing perpetuating that status quo. He's setting up a huge cultural change and writing history which would get a big section in TWOIAF and other history books. It'd be a tremendous disappointment if this story would only merit a small sidebar which ended in something like "...the details of which are unimportant as everything returned to normal." 

I agree with GRRM's choices but I'll admit Oberyn's death feels weird now that the sellsword companies to which he was so tied are now becoming a big part of the series. 

Not sure how to respond to this, because we don't know if that is Martins intention until he finishes all the books, and well.....the road he's traveled had produced some potholes that have halted the journey. I believe he still could've many of the same twists and such, if just shifted the events and put off the ending of the first book until maybe the trilogy, but it would've negate many of the "pointless" aspects of the recent two books(I for one am very fond of both the dornish and iron born storylines, but I could curse out the decision of Dany being stuck in Meereen for a full day and night)

I'm going to severely doubt there will be that much of a cultural change, from Martins sensibilities I think another long night apocalypse is more likely, but I would be happy to be proven wrong because it would be nice to be able to view the series as a stand out from the histories(many of which I currently like better than the main series, the Dance, Blackfyre Rebellions, Aegon Conquest are all bigger then the wars seen in the current five book storylines)

 

Furthermore I don't know how we're going to get the resolution in two books. Danys invasion I feel deserved another few on its own, besides the others and she's not even close to Westeros yet?

Edited by Mwm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Do you consider any of the characters killed off to be missed opportunities, or all well crafted storytelling decisions?

Well-crafted storytelling.  

  1. Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster were the old establishment who took down an even older establishment because they thought they could rule better.  And they failed.  These stooges destroyed Westeros and the blame for the Wot5Ks can partly be blamed on Robert, Ned, and Jon.  
  2. Ned is our first view point into the sorry state of Robert's administration.  He was also the conscience of this reign.  He was one of the usurper's dogs.  The usurper went and his dogs followed him to the grave.  Hoster and Arryn were dogs too.
  3. It seems to me that the ones who want to break up Westeros are punished.  They are divisive and the plot as written gets rid of them.  Rhaegar, Rickard, Balon, Renly, Jon Snow, and Robb Stark were all in some shape or form trying to pull the land apart.  Unintentionally on the parts of Rhaegar and Renly but their decisions would have caused the breaking of the land.  In the case of Rhaegar it did.  Their selfish actions caused their deaths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Mwm said:

Not sure how to respond to this, because we don't know if that is Martins intention until he finishes all the books, and well.....the road he's traveled had produced some potholes that have halted the journey. I believe he still could've many of the same twists and such, if just shifted the events and put off the ending of the first book until maybe the trilogy, but it would've negate many of the "pointless" aspects of the recent two books(I for one am very fond of both the dornish and iron born storylines, but I could curse out the decision of Dany being stuck in Meereen for a full day and night)

I'm going to severely doubt there will be that much of a cultural change, from Martins sensibilities I think another long night apocalypse is more likely, but I would be happy to be proven wrong because it would be nice to be able to view the series as a stand out from the histories(many of which I currently like better than the main series, the Dance, Blackfyre Rebellions, Aegon Conquest are all bigger then the wars seen in the current five book storylines)

 

Furthermore I don't know how we're going to get the resolution in two books. Danys invasion I feel deserved another few on its own, besides the others and she's not even close to Westeros yet?

 

This might help clear up where GRRM is going. Characters who would prop up the existing order tend to die. The major POVs either don't care about the existing order, were screwed over by it in a big way, or weren't raised in this order at all. 

Robert - status quo - dead
Ned - status quo - dead
Catelyn - status quo - dead
Robb - status quo - dead
Tywin - status quo - dead
Renly - status quo - dead

Now look at some of our POVs and major players. Character-wise, it wouldn't even make sense for any of these to restore Westeros back to its old traditions, especially as the younger ones weren't even old enough to process that system with an adult's understanding before things went haywire, and many don't care or don't want to go back to a system which caused them to suffer.

Jaime - 0 f**** about status quo - alive
Cersei - 0 f**** about status quo - alive
Tyrion - screwed by the status quo of Westeros. A symbolic if not literal bastard. 
Jon - screwed by the status quo of Westeros. A symbolic if not literal bastard. 
Arya - always hated the status quo. Feared she was a bastard like Jon. Feels like a bastard.
Sansa - now living happily as a bastard. Screwed by the powers that be. 
Bran - hated being Robb's heir and the status quo felt oppressive.
Rickon - this is obvious. Will have no memory of the status quo.
Dany - raised by Viserys on the run in Westeros. Not raised in the status quo. 
Theon - screwed by the system. 
Euron - not a status quo guy
Stannis - def thinks outside the box
LF - not a status quo guy
Varys - says he's status quo. Actions say the opposite. 
 

Definitely a pattern here. This idea of being a type of bastard who was screwed by a system is part of GRRM's own history. GRRM didn't go on to try rebuild that world. He made a new one. ;) No Voldemort stuff in the link. https://www.nj.com/hudson/2018/11/george_rr_martin_mind_behind_game_of_thrones_makes.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×