Video Games: Devils Die Twice

[briantw]

Main problem with Inquisition is that it's very difficult to go back to it if you've played Witcher 3, which basically ate BioWare's lunch.  

[KiDisaster]

The only hope left for DA4 in my mind is that the negative reaction to Anthem causes them to reevaluate the live service move and swing the project back in a new direction. 

Of course that would most likely mean yet another development reboot in a studio that's already having enough issues with those so...

[Fez]

You: There's still a chance. Bioware can reform and Dragon Age can be good. It can hap-

Me: Indiana... Let it go.

 

Old Bioware is dead and gone, everyone who made the games we love is elsewhere now. Our hopes for excellence in AAA single player RPGs rest with Obsidian (who've got that Microsoft money now) and CDPR.

[Rhom]

My understanding is that Anthem made a good amount of money at launch with the cosmetic micro transactions.  I don’t think that will sway anyone from the live service model for Dragon Age.

[briantw]

32 minutes ago, Fez said:

You: There's still a chance. Bioware can reform and Dragon Age can be good. It can hap-

Me: Indiana... Let it go.

 

Old Bioware is dead and gone, everyone who made the games we love is elsewhere now. Our hopes for excellence in AAA single player RPGs rest with Obsidian (who've got that Microsoft money now) and CDPR.

Add Ubisoft to that list given that Assassin's Creed has been turned into a competent Witcher knock off.

Also whatever the company is who makes the Divinity games.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I think CDPR and Larian are the best right now. Bioware is just a name, but the original developers are pretty much gone. 

As for Larian, I know Original Sin line of games are really popular, but I'd love for them to go back to their 3d open world game model like Divinity II the Dragon Knight Saga. I loved that game--problems and all.

CDPR is great. I appreciate everything about their studio.

[Werthead]

At the moment the best RPG developers still around are (in no particular order) Larian, CD Projekt Red and Obsidian Entertainment. inXile have also done okay. Bethesda can - and hopefully will get back to - make effective open world, single-player games but each one is less of an RPG than the one before. BioWare has, frankly, not made a decent CRPG since Mass Effect 3, which was 7 years ago, and haven't made an all-time classic one since arguably Knights of the Old Republic, which was 16 years ago.

[Caligula_K3]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

At the moment the best RPG developers still around are (in no particular order) Larian, CD Projekt Red and Obsidian Entertainment. inXile have also done okay. Bethesda can - and hopefully will get back to - make effective open world, single-player games but each one is less of an RPG than the one before. BioWare has, frankly, not made a decent CRPG since Mass Effect 3, which was 7 years ago, and haven't made an all-time classic one since arguably Knights of the Old Republic, which was 16 years ago.

Let's not exaggerate. Dragon Age: Inquisition came out to great reviews (though as briantw pointed out, The Witcher 3 hasn't helped its long term replayability). And Bioware has had at least a couple classics since KOTOR; Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 are often considered some of the best RPG games out there. And I say this as someone who thinks that Origins is slightly overrated, but it must be said that it is still held up as a classic. And depending on who you ask, the Mass Effect trilogy as a whole is cited as a classic, ending issues notwithstanding. 

But yes, Bioware has definitely losts its place among premiere RPG makers in the past four years. Chances are Dragon Age 4 won't be great, but if it is, that's all it really takes to get them back on the list, just like the Witcher 3 took CD Projekt Red to the top of the list. I hope, even if it's unlikely, that DA 4 is great, or at least good; Bioware games have their own unique flavour in comparison to other RPGs, and I'd hate to lose that forever. 

 

....Time to replay Mass Effect. And maybe finally try the Old Republic.

[briantw]

I enjoyed parts of the new Dragon Age but the fetch questing in that game was out of control.  It makes sense when Geralt has to pick his own herbs.  He's a lone wanderer and he uses this herbs to keep him alive in combat, or for useful things like seeing in the dark.

It makes less sense when you're the leader of a massive army and you're still expected to do everything yourself right down to picking your own flowers.

Also, Inquisition's combat was garbage.  You barely even had to play it.

[Caligula_K3]

Just now, briantw said:

I enjoyed parts of the new Dragon Age but the fetch questing in that game was out of control.  It makes sense when Geralt has to pick his own herbs.  He's a lone wanderer and he uses this herbs to keep him alive in combat, or for useful things like seeing in the dark.

It makes less sense when you're the leader of a massive army and you're still expected to do everything yourself right down to picking your own flowers.

Also, Inquisition's combat was garbage.  You barely even had to play it.

Yeah, the crafting system sucked. Too much busywork.

I had the more fun with Inquisition's combat system as a backstabby rogue than the other Dragon Age games. I loved zipping around the battlefield, there were good abilities, and for the hard fights I had fun with the tactics system. But I do remember starting a game as a mage and it being nowhere near as good.

 

[briantw]

Just now, Caligula_K3 said:

Yeah, the crafting system sucked. Too much busywork.

I had the more fun with Inquisition's combat system as a backstabby rogue than the other Dragon Age games. I loved zipping around the battlefield, there were good abilities, and for the hard fights I had fun with the tactics system. But I do remember starting a game as a mage and it being nowhere near as good.

 

Yeah I played as a mage and it was basically auto play for most fights, just running around in circles waiting for shit to recharge.  

[Werthead]

13 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Let's not exaggerate. Dragon Age: Inquisition came out to great reviews (though as briantw pointed out, The Witcher 3 hasn't helped its long term replayability). And Bioware has had at least a couple classics since KOTOR; Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 are often considered some of the best RPG games out there. And I say this as someone who thinks that Origins is slightly overrated, but it must be said that it is still held up as a classic. And depending on who you ask, the Mass Effect trilogy as a whole is cited as a classic, ending issues notwithstanding. 

Dragon Age: Inquisition was utter dogshit, though. It had maybe 12 hours of okay-to-mediocre storytelling locked inside 70-100 hours of inane fetch quest, single-player MMORPG bullcrap. DA:O was okay, but massively overhyped and overrated because the origins bit at the start of the game was quite cool and that made people overlook the fact that the rest of the game was generic beyond beigeness. Frankly, Dragon Age II remains the best full game in the series (although Awakening was pretty damn good as well) because the massive budget cuts forced it into a corner where it had to come up with probably BioWare's best, least-formulaic story and characters in years because they didn't have the capacity to do their normal thing.

Mass Effect 2 was a splendid game and the best in the trilogy but it was effectively a third-person shooter with dialogue choices (as was Mass Effect 3), with less of an RPG feel even than Mass Effect 1 (which was borderline). The Mass Effect series as a whole was quite an interesting, fun trilogy, but it  was also riven with massive flaws, including the much-vaunted choices you make throughout the trilogy have next to zero impact on the ending, rendering them illusory and superfluous. If you extracted the best elements of each game, you'd come up with something quite good, but since you can't, there's quite a lot of tedium to wade through.

I have a strong soft spot for Jade Empire though (despite it again not really being an RPG, and its big plot twist felt a little cliched).I still replay that every few years and it still holds up as a good story with solid characters (and them getting John Cleese to troll the recently-released World of WarCraft was amusing, if random).

[Fez]

Larian has become very good. But their games pretty openly show their budget limitations; and, as fun as they are, the writing isn't very good. I wouldn't put them on the same level as CDPR. Larian is more in-line with Harebrained (Shadowrun) or Stoic (Banner Saga), though a bit more ambitious than them.

Ubisoft is a good call to add though; if they keep going in the direction of Odyssey.

[briantw]

2 minutes ago, Fez said:

Larian has become very good. But their games pretty openly show their budget limitations; and, as fun as they are, the writing isn't very good. I wouldn't put them on the same level as CDPR. Larian is more in-line with Harebrained (Shadowrun) or Stoic (Banner Saga), though a bit more ambitious than them.

Ubisoft is a good call to add though; if they keep going in the direction of Odyssey.

Larian gets bonus points because the combat is awesome and deep in their games and you can play them with friends.  My buddy and I played through Original Sin together...the entire game.  It's awesome how each of the two characters makes choices independent of the other one.  

I also don't think either Shadowrun or Banner Saga, while both great series, are comparable to the Original Sin games, which are way bigger and more ambitious.

[Caligula_K3]

13 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Dragon Age: Inquisition was utter dogshit, though. It had maybe 12 hours of okay-to-mediocre storytelling locked inside 70-100 hours of inane fetch quest, single-player MMORPG bullcrap. DA:O was okay, but massively overhyped and overrated because the origins bit at the start of the game was quite cool and that made people overlook the fact that the rest of the game was generic beyond beigeness. Frankly, Dragon Age II remains the best full game in the series (although Awakening was pretty damn good as well) because the massive budget cuts forced it into a corner where it had to come up with probably BioWare's best, least-formulaic story and characters in years because they didn't have the capacity to do their normal thing.

Mass Effect 2 was a splendid game and the best in the trilogy but it was effectively a third-person shooter with dialogue choices (as was Mass Effect 3), with less of an RPG feel even than Mass Effect 1 (which was borderline). The Mass Effect series as a whole was quite an interesting, fun trilogy, but it  was also riven with massive flaws, including the much-vaunted choices you make throughout the trilogy have next to zero impact on the ending, rendering them illusory and superfluous. If you extracted the best elements of each game, you'd come up with something quite good, but since you can't, there's quite a lot of tedium to wade through.

I have a strong soft spot for Jade Empire though (despite it again not really being an RPG, and its big plot twist felt a little cliched).I still replay that every few years and it still holds up as a good story with solid characters (and them getting John Cleese to troll the recently-released World of WarCraft was amusing, if random).

Look, you're welcome to think that Dragon Age: Inquisition was dogshit or that Dragon Age: Origins was mediocre. But it's disingenuous to claim that because you thought so, the claims of many people/reviewers that these are good games or in Origins' case, a classic, are all wrong, and that Bioware has been on a downward spiral since KOTOR. I had a terrible time with the Divinity: Original Sin games; I found the combat boring as hell and couldn't get invested in the plot and characters of either game. I make no claims that either  game is dogshit, though. They're clearly good games that just don't do it for me. And I wouldn't be surprised if Divinity OS 2 is considered as a classic in a few years.    

I agree that Dragon Age 2 is quite underrated though; I understand why it's panned, but it makes some very interesting writing choices.

As for Mass Effect 2 not being a true enough RPG to qualify as a classic... this is just silly gatekeeping.

[Jace, Extat]

42 minutes ago, briantw said:

I enjoyed parts of the new Dragon Age but the fetch questing in that game was out of control.  It makes sense when Geralt has to pick his own herbs.  He's a lone wanderer and he uses this herbs to keep him alive in combat, or for useful things like seeing in the dark.

It makes less sense when you're the leader of a massive army and you're still expected to do everything yourself right down to picking your own flowers.

Also, Inquisition's combat was garbage.  You barely even had to play it.

Jesus man, I've been trying to get into it on my new rig for the past week, but the combat is SOOOOOO BOOOORING. And I don't want to not play a mage, 'cause I wanna play an elf mage 'cause that's WHAT I WANT TO FUCKING PLAY!!!!

I set it to easy but the enemies are still fucking damage sponges.

23 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Dragon Age: Inquisition was utter dogshit, though. It had maybe 12 hours of okay-to-mediocre storytelling locked inside 70-100 hours of inane fetch quest, single-player MMORPG bullcrap. DA:O was okay, but massively overhyped and overrated because the origins bit at the start of the game was quite cool and that made people overlook the fact that the rest of the game was generic beyond beigeness. Frankly, Dragon Age II remains the best full game in the series (although Awakening was pretty damn good as well) because the massive budget cuts forced it into a corner where it had to come up with probably BioWare's best, least-formulaic story and characters in years because they didn't have the capacity to do their normal thing.

Mass Effect 2 was a splendid game and the best in the trilogy but it was effectively a third-person shooter with dialogue choices (as was Mass Effect 3), with less of an RPG feel even than Mass Effect 1 (which was borderline). The Mass Effect series as a whole was quite an interesting, fun trilogy, but it  was also riven with massive flaws, including the much-vaunted choices you make throughout the trilogy have next to zero impact on the ending, rendering them illusory and superfluous. If you extracted the best elements of each game, you'd come up with something quite good, but since you can't, there's quite a lot of tedium to wade through.

I have a strong soft spot for Jade Empire though (despite it again not really being an RPG, and its big plot twist felt a little cliched).I still replay that every few years and it still holds up as a good story with solid characters (and them getting John Cleese to troll the recently-released World of WarCraft was amusing, if random).

I didn't realize I was spoiling for a fight until y'all started one. You wanna brawl let's brawl bae-b.

LET'S BE CLEAR!!!

Jace, @Caligula_K3 , and @Werthead are declared. This is a BioWare showdown! I want a clean fight, folks. References to other studios, comparisons. Legal.

But watch the strawmen, I don't want any shifting of goalposts. Above all I want you to respect one another, we're all peak nerds and losers here and we will comport ourselves with dignity! I respect both of you, I expect both of you to respect your adversaries and allies in this struggle alike. Any man or woman who would declare themselves participant should do so when entering the fray.

Now let's get to business:

@Werthead do possess a working brain? You dumb animal? The words you've written bring disgrace upon you, your house, and your cat. Never in my life have I been so affronted at a man on the internet. Last week a Nazi tried to purchase me on Yahoo! Answers. 

This is one of those fascinating little things I've noticed as like a sub-division in the gaming community (cause there's not really a significant segment of said community that I've seen which just hates BioWare in general or anything) is the hardcore weirdos who claim there's never been a Western RPG worthy of the name. You're totally one of them Wert, what you actually think is irrelevant, I'm assigning you a label because that's how life works now. But the real schism I've identified is over what constitutes a 'real' RPG. This is borne of the "Mass Effect 2 isn't even an RPG". I GET IT! I GET IT! You have a feeling, you have facts and figures to defend it. That's why there's a schism. Some folks who consider themselves RPG fans (like myself) are so goddamn starved for an enjoyable game they relate to that Mass Effect 2 is not only an RPG, it's a fucking masterpiece! That doesn't make me any less a fan of RPG's than you, and it makes me no less capable of identifying the actual turds of the studio. We've got that out of the way. If we wanna argue about whether or not there's a schism I'm not really interested, but I'm eager to join in on some of the fun stuff.

I also am a defender of DA2. I love the way it had to do creative narrative things, and actually feel it added to the worldbuilding waaaay more than DA:I. The characters were pretty interesting in a very messy kinda way, I liked Varric in DA2 but never took him out into the world once in DA:I. Obviously we disagree on certain things, but we're pretty lockstep regarding the DA franchise. I too have found Origins underwhelming over the years when I've randomly reinstalled it only to uninstall it a month and ninety minutes of gameplay later.

 

13 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Look, you're welcome to think that Dragon Age: Inquisition was dogshit or that Dragon Age: Origins was mediocre. But it's disingenuous to claim that because you thought so, the claims of many people/reviewers that these are good games or in Origins' case, a classic, are all wrong, and that Bioware has been on a downward spiral since KOTOR. I had a terrible time with the Divinity: Original Sin games; I found the combat boring as hell and couldn't get invested in the plot and characters of either game. I make no claims that either  game is dogshit, though. They're clearly good games that just don't do it for me. And I wouldn't be surprised if Divinity OS 2 is considered as a classic in a few years.    

I agree that Dragon Age 2 is quite underrated though; I understand why it's panned, but it makes some very interesting writing choices.

As for Mass Effect 2 not being a true enough RPG to qualify as a classic... this is just silly gatekeeping.

Jace can't get into the new Divinity games neither, they're just boring. "Sorry, my hippocampus is undeveloped and I need more stimulation because I'm a dumb" if that's what the elitists want to hear. I kinda want voice acting and cinematic elements. I know that makes me a bad person, but I don't care.

We all agree on DA2 though, so TOTALLY YAAAAY!!!

[Caligula_K3]

That was an amazing and hilarious post, @Jace, Basilissa. I'm in the fray!

And yep, looks like the only thing everyone can agree on with Bioware is that Dragon Age 2 is actually good.  This is not a development anyone would have predicted when it first came out.

[Rhom]

37 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

That was an amazing and hilarious post, @Jace, Basilissa. I'm in the fray!

And yep, looks like the only thing everyone can agree on with Bioware is that Dragon Age 2 is actually good.  This is not a development anyone would have predicted when it first came out.

I also low key like DA2 despite its flaws such as the reused assets.  (Seriously... can't there be at least a couple different caves to use?!!?)  My main problem with it had to do with the wave structure of the combat.  I enjoyed DA:O and the way that I could plan out a battle.  There is no way to effectively do that when more enemies are dropping in from the walls at random intervals.   

As I've said, DA:I was just a mess with the gameplay and it was too big with not enough story as Wert says.  My Inquisitor was a gal who swung a big ass sword and at no point did I feel the combat had any strategy or even enjoyable factor to it.  

I'm with Jace though on the weird dichotomy of what is/isn't an RPG.  I think we would all agree that Final Fantasy IV is an RPG, correct?  At what point do you get any choice in that game?  Your party is dictated at every turn.  You learn spells at certain levels.  You don't even distribute your stat upgrades.  On the other hand we have Mass Effect 2.  Its a third person shooter.  I agree.  But its also much more of what I consider a role playing game than most role playing games as I note above.  Your choices do affect real change (in that game... not ME2s fault that ME3 didn't stick the landing).  You choose your companions.  You distribute your stat usage.  Much more of what I would consider an RPG.  In short, I don't think we need to line up the enemies on the left and the good guys on the right and take turns in order to be considered an RPG.

[Jace, Extat]

@Rhom has entered the fray. May the Divine have mercy!

[Rhom]

5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

@Rhom has entered the fray. May the Divine have mercy!

Bah Gawd King!  That's @Rhom's entrance music!!!!!