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MCUniverse: Cat Scratch Fever edition.


Red Tiger

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I mean, there was the whole injustice story line in DC, where people like Superman and Wonder Woman eventually said, "fuck it" and went proper God mode on earth's arse, and decided global domination by the "good guys" is how things would be better. And Batman was like, oh hell no!

I generally agree with the Accords, but I think they probably hamstrung the Avengers a bit too much. There should have been a list of circumstances agreed where the Avengers don't have to sit and twiddle their thumbs while the UN decides of the situation calls for them or not. Obvious example: space alien invasion. Their decisions are also acts of conscience rather than legal obligation, and certainly not military command. Acting on conscience is kind of an important element of their rights and obligations.

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7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

 

I mean, there was the whole injustice story line in DC, where people like Superman and Wonder Woman eventually said, "fuck it" and went proper God mode on earth's arse, and decided global domination by the "good guys" is how things would be better. And Batman was like, oh hell no!

 

Yeah Batman has often  decided to make certain contingency plans in case his comrades go rogue in DC. 

I think Tony’s fears of what if the Avengers go rogue is justified. They could be brainwashed, they could be blackmailed,they suffer psychological break. Or they could simply develop an inflated view of themselves. They could see themselves as “gods”. When that happens the people need to be able to defend themselves. 

7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I generally agree with the Accords, but I think they probably hamstrung the Avengers a bit too much. There should have been a list of circumstances agreed where the Avengers don't have to sit and twiddle their thumbs while the UN decides of the situation calls for them or not. Obvious example: space alien invasion. Their decisions are also acts of conscience rather than legal obligation, and certainly not military command. Acting on conscience is kind of an important element of their rights and obligations.

True, some situations do require some immediate actions. A type of alien or whatever invading the planet could justify that. B I kinda think it has to be at that specific level threat at the very least. But In general I feel that’s a point of contention that could have been compromised. You know I was a little surprised that Russia supported the Accords but I guess that makes sense; I mean most of the major Superhumans are turning out to be American. 

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The whole Homecoming and the Accords thing is quite interesting, but less for the fact that Spiderman was indirectly responsible for getting a ferry cut in half, but that he screwed up a live FBI operation. And it's that kind of half cocked save the day shit that's as bad as super heroes haring off and administering vigilante justice that enforcement / military authorities don't know about or don;t have under control.

It cuts both ways though. If the supers are kept in the dark about covert / undercover stuff, then the authorities should not be surprised to have the odd super show up and potentially throw a spanner in the works. Stark was probably a bit responsible in this case, since he just kept saying, kid stay in your lane. He could have said, don't worry kid, me and the feds have it handled.

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I've never understood in a world where there's things like SHIELD and the government is often on top of this stuff that superheroes aren't just government forces, automatically. Why would the government even allow random people to go off on their own and do, well, whatever? I know they can't stop Thor from that, and Hulk is kind of his own thing, but Stark? Rogers? 

If someone on our world created something like Ultron which basically wiped out an entire city by itself, they wouldn't hear the end of it. You certainly wouldn't just assume things were chill after. The weird thing isn't that the messed up mission in Africa caused a revisitation - it's that why on Earth didn't Sokovia itself cause a massive backlash? 

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3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

If someone on our world created something like Ultron which basically wiped out an entire city by itself, they wouldn't hear the end of it. You certainly wouldn't just assume things were chill after. The weird thing isn't that the messed up mission in Africa caused a revisitation - it's that why on Earth didn't Sokovia itself cause a massive backlash? 

Well Tony is rich. So destroying cities and almost the entire planet is ok. Kidding. Tony reasonably should have been arrested and tried for basically creating an mechanical abomination that wanted to genocide Humanity.  I mean seriously if not arrested, he should have been sued by all the people of Sokovia for all the pain and suffering he caused them lol. But who else is going fight Cap in Civil. 

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 

I've never understood in a world where there's things like SHIELD and the government is often on top of this stuff that superheroes aren't just government forces, automatically. Why would the government even allow random people to go off on their own and do, well, whatever? I know they can't stop Thor from that, and Hulk is kind of his own thing, but Stark? Rogers? 

 

Thor I do see the trouble ever getting him because he’s nearly immune to whatever humanity could throw at him all the time, and he could just fly off when things get rough. I guess Tony or one of the most powerful pro-Accords would have to arrest Thot. 

Bruce has been able to outmaneuver the government for years however he probably could be convinced to take drugs or other measures that would basically make it less likely for him to lose total control. So I still see reason to try to go after him. Also he is a US citizen, whose powers is the direct result of a US government experiment. The US would look bad if they allow the behemoth to run amok. 

I do think it’s rather odd it took this long to really have talk of regulation. I mean Captain America has been around for decades. His creation kinda seems to be something that would prompt serious discussion on how World’s government is going to deal with  Superhumans. 

3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

It cuts both ways though. If the supers are kept in the dark about covert / undercover stuff, then the authorities should not be surprised to have the odd super show up and potentially throw a spanner in the works. Stark was probably a bit responsible in this case, since he just kept saying, kid stay in your lane. He could have said, don't worry kid, me and the feds have it handled.

True. It’s best when the government and Supes work in tandem. Secrets from the government should be expected, but it wouldn’t hurt to alert the supers that they should probably not interfere in a situation.

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7 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I'm pretty sure the reason SW's abilities changed is because that's when Feige outed Perlmuter and got the Story Group dismissed.

It happened within the same movie though - in AoU she's using pretty much exclusively...mind vision powers (they're not hallucinations as such and its not mind control so I'm not sure how to refer to it) right up until she switches sides, then its pretty much entirely telekinesis with some passive snooping on Visions mind.

I interpreted Cap's concerns about the accords to be as much about fear of being used as a tool for oppression as it was about being sidelined (ie its both) and can very much see why he'd be concerned of being manipulated into that just by control of information if he agreed to be under governments like that.

And while they obviously can't enforce the accords on Thor, how do the accords even interact with him if they could? For that matter Carol would have to count as half alien and she's been MIA so can't know about the accords, do they apply to her when she's back?

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39 minutes ago, karaddin said:

And while they obviously can't enforce the accords on Thor, how do the accords even interact with him if they could? For that matter Carol would have to count as half alien and she's been MIA so can't know about the accords, do they apply to her when she's back?

Even being a full Alien shouldn’t be an issue:

From the MCU wiki
For the purposes of the Accords, an "enhanced individual" is defined as any person, human or otherwise, with superhuman capabilities.
I don’t really see why Carol would be granted an exception when she’s back. I could see granting some leniency over her absence if she accidentally breaks the accords but once she’s informed of the rule change, she should have to face  more stringent legal trouble.
 
I don’t really  see anything that could really make Thor adhering to the Accords that much of an issue if he chooses to do so. I mean the regulations seem simple enough; register with the U.N., wear a tracker, don’t operate in a country without the local government’s permission, etc.  Like what regulations are you seeing as pretty hard for Thor to fulfill?
I see the difficulty in arresting Thor. But I think that would be a Job left mainly to Pro-Accords heroes. With possible military backup.
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3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I've never understood in a world where there's things like SHIELD and the government is often on top of this stuff that superheroes aren't just government forces, automatically. Why would the government even allow random people to go off on their own and do, well, whatever? I know they can't stop Thor from that, and Hulk is kind of his own thing, but Stark? Rogers? 

Something I’d like to see more of is public perception of all the changes that have gone on since 2008, can you even begin to imagine how huge it’d be if these people existed? Bearing in mind that the MCU is fictional and it’s already pretty freaking popular. Let’s say Elon Musk built an Iron Man suit in 2008, then did a bunch of stuff that was regarded as positive in 2008 and 2010, then literally saved the world from aliens in 2011? How much good will would he have in the bank? We get a look at some kids playing with Cap dolls in Jessica Jones, which implies there’s a brand here that would be making insane amounts of money (I reckon Tony could easily make the Avengers profitable). That kind of good will and cash could buy some serious influence if you know what you’re doing, I could picture the Avengers having a few people in their pocket in government, and some in media.

Much as I love Winter Soldier, the existence of SHIELD made all this way more palatable, if SHIELD was already a branch of government and the Avengers were a subset of them. But yea, quite what the government was doing about them between SHIELD’s collapse and Civil War remains to be seen.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t really  see anything that could really make Thor adhering to the Accords that much of an issue if he chooses to do so. I mean the regulations seem simple enough; register with the U.N., wear a tracker, don’t operate in a country without the local government’s permission, etc.  Like what regulations are you seeing as pretty hard for Thor to fulfill?

I see the difficulty in arresting Thor. But I think that would be a Job left mainly to Pro-Accords heroes. With possible military backup.

I guess I'm still thinking of another aspect of the difficulty of enforcing rather than the legality. Someone that drops by earth then almost immediately leaves again is a separate problem to someone permanently there but hard to capture. Also a tracker may unintentionally be an issue with Thor :p 

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31 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I guess I'm still thinking of another aspect of the difficulty of enforcing rather than the legality. Someone that drops by earth then almost immediately leaves again is a separate problem to someone permanently there but hard to capture. Also a tracker may unintentionally be an issue with Thor :p 

Yeah I had the same thought on tracking. Could pose a problem. He does travel to other dimensions so an earthmade tracker may not be able to follow him. But I’m sure Tony could whip up a really sophisticated tracker that would at least kick in when Thors in the neighborhood. I wonder if Tony will make a Thorbuster suite in order to neutralize Thor when needed.!

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16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah I had the same thought on tracking. Could pose a problem. He does travel to other dimensions so an earthmade tracker may not be able to follow him. But I’m sure Tony could whip up a really sophisticated tracker that would at least kick in when Thors in the neighborhood. I wonder if Tony will make a Thorbuster suite in order to neutralize Thor when needed.!

I was more thinking of him frying any ankle tracker you tried to put on him without even intending to. All that lightning and stuff.

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Trackers are a bit too 1984.

The idea is that you get supers to agree to abide by rules, like the rest of us do, as a compact between the individual and society. You refrain from doing certain things, and you get to stay out of gaol. Of course someone like Thor isn't going to go to gaol because he broke a rule, so with him it's more like foreign diplomacy. Sure, you have diplomatic immunity, but if you break the rules you won't be welcome anymore, and we'll stop cooperating with you, so let's play nice, eh?

It's also kind of easy-ish with the tech heroes, you take away their toys. With the actual powered humans, you're not really going to be able to lock them up if they don't want to be. So it's either e death sentence if you actually go off the rails, or if you are still operating with noble intentions, it's a sternly worded letter and a time out.

It's unjust to conscript them into military / policing service. Though if they are going to be a crime-fighter or international peace keeper, then they at least need to have some kind of recognition, like a neighborhood watch group.

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I think foreign diplomacy is a good comparison.  You can’t make Russia do anything, you can’t make Saudi Arabia do anything, you just have to put up with it and try and bring as much pressure as you can to bear.  In the MCU that probably means trying to control how Tony Stark uses his wealth, since a large part of the superhero community depends on it.  Thor, Banner, T’Challa I just don’t see how they can be restrained.

But anyway, I think the justifications for the Sokovia Accords are bullshit on the face of it.  Everybody in Manhattan would have died if not for the Avengers (killed by their own government).  Everybody in Sokovia (potentially everybody on the planet) would have died if not for the Avengers.  Everybody in that square in Lagos would have died if not for the Avengers (a lot more than the 11 people who actually died and again potentially a large part of the planet since Crossbones stole a bioweapon).  Plus I would say Ultron is Strucker’s fault, not Stark’s.  The Hulk rampaging through Johanessburg is SW’s fault so ultimately Strucker’s too.

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37 minutes ago, john said:

In the MCU that probably means trying to control how Tony Stark uses his wealth, since a large part of the superhero community depends on it.

Tax Tony Stark! :commie:

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So I’m not an expert in how wealth works, but how is Stark getting so much cash for personal stuff in the first place?  You don’t see Zuckerburg or Bezos building billion dollar pet projects.  If Elon Musk wants to go to space he has to make a company and get backing.  No one is going to invest in Avengers Inc. your tech is definitely going to be destroyed at some point.

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13 minutes ago, john said:

So I’m not an expert in how wealth works, but how is Stark getting so much cash for personal stuff in the first place?  You don’t see Zuckerburg or Bezos building billion dollar pet projects.  If Elon Musk wants to go to space he has to make a company and get backing.  No one is going to invest in Avengers Inc. your tech is definitely going to be destroyed at some point.

He does have a company, run by Pepper - Stark Industries. He probably still owns stock in it. Also, branding.

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43 minutes ago, john said:

So I’m not an expert in how wealth works, but how is Stark getting so much cash for personal stuff in the first place?  You don’t see Zuckerburg or Bezos building billion dollar pet projects.  If Elon Musk wants to go to space he has to make a company and get backing.  No one is going to invest in Avengers Inc. your tech is definitely going to be destroyed at some point.

Money in superhero films works like tech in superhero films. It's basically magic. 

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10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:


Thor I do see the trouble ever getting him because he’s nearly immune to whatever humanity could throw at him all the time, and he could just fly off when things get rough. I guess Tony or one of the most powerful pro-Accords would have to arrest Thot

 

Excuse me, but...

The God of thunder, creator of lightning, seems remarkably vulnerable to tasers

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