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NonoNono

Why I think the truce with the CotF was to offer a Stark, in perpetuity, to warg into the NK's mind, until Brandon the Breaker broke the promise.

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Posted (edited)

First, I'm new, so hello:)

edit: I edited my post to remove show-specific stuff, hope it's clean now!

Little bit of an intro; I started reading the books last year after watching all seasons in a row. Loved the show, loved the books even more. Read D&E too and loved those as well.

Since then I've had many different views, but things have started to coalesce, and I have seen a few cases were these points were brought up in some ways, but maybe not in such a unified manner. And yes there is a lot of extrapolation!

Dragon Binder, and the Horn of Winter. The former seems like it could allow one to warg into a dragon, at the cost of their physical selves burning to death. The later is apparently nothing like it; it is said it could raise giants from the earth, and bring down the wall. What if the Horn of Winter is very much like Dragon Binder, except it allows you to warg into the White Walker(s), at the cost of freezing to death? Raising giants just means you can raise the dead. Bringing down the wall could mean that if you are the Great Other/WWs, you are pretty much in control of it (more on that further down).

Anyway, it is said that the wall was built by Brandon the Builder, supposedly to protect the south against the WW, but with the help of giants. This was after the long night, after the truce with the CotF. But giants live north of the wall, why would they help build a wall only to be trapped on the other side with the WW? The first men pretty much converted to the "religion" of the CotF.  The remaining CotF (as far as we know) are essentially all north of the wall. Again, why would they be north of it if the WW were a threat? It seems the Wall was raised to protect what lied beyond it. The original castles would have been built south of the wall to protect the passages leading through to the north side, which only the allies of the CotF would be allowed through to visit them. The Night Watch would have protected the wall from the men south of it. The Starks would have been the wardens of the north, protecting the NW, the Wall, and what lied beyond it. "Winter is coming!" could have been a threat. And sure, you could go around it, but beware, because the WW would come at you anyway.

But I think there was even more to the truce: the Night King and his Night Fort. The White Walkers existed before the Wall, and the first they must have served the CotF, because the first men started losing badly to the point where they eventually pretty much recognized the power of the CotF and came to a truce and followed their beliefs. Presumably, it means the GO/WWs mind(s) was under control since they were used by the CotF to put pressure on the first men. But the WWs continued to exist after the truce. So someone had to keep on controlling the first WWs, and as far as we know, no one is immortal, and over time one can lose themselves in someone else's head.

What if the truce was that the first born (or an important son, a "promised prince") of an important bloodline (eventually known as the Starks) would sacrifice themselves, by blowing the Horn of Winter, to warg into the WWs or their leader's head, to control them/him, rule over the Night Fort, protecting the wall and what lied beyond it? Over time, the warg would lose themselves in their heads, and another Stark would have to sacrifice themselves to retake control and their now forever-frozen bodies would be entombed in the crypts of Winterfell. Hence "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." and the odd WW-like references about the ones in the crypts (and all of the Starks' history, their swords, their motto, etc.).

They did this for a few generations, but eventually the promise was broken. If the old tales about the 13th Lord Commander are true, maybe the Stark that was in the NK's mind was wooed by the pale woman, or maybe it was a loved one he brought back to life, and so he thought they could go on, not wanting to let another Stark take over his mind. Or maybe it was Brandon the Breaker who didn't want to warg into the NK like he was supposed to, maybe he broke the Horn of Winter, and as the current Stark's mind started to fade, the NK-Stark started using his powers to bring back a dead lover and everything went south (well, north). In any case, the cycle is broken, the "robots are out of control", and Brandon the Breaker and his men have to take action; they attack the Night Fort and the NK flees north. Brandon continues north, and Joramun teams up because well, they don't want to be icicles! But since no one took over the NK's mind, eventually the Stark's mind vanishes completely. The "now sentient" NK doesn't try to make his way south, he leaves far north, with his "people", in the forever winter lands, wanting to stay very far away from the damn horn, or anyone. Could even explain the similar stories in Essos, maybe he kept going until he reached the other side but was pushed back again, so he settled in the forever winter lands.

Brandon the Breaker turns the situation around: having lost control of "the robots", the Wall will now protect the realms south of it, the NW will protect the wall from the north, and the Starks are warden of the North, and over time "The north forgot", and the freefolk were eventually only remembered as enemies, the children forgotten. The NK/WW/GO stays where they are because life is alright there, no worries.

But why are the WWs now coming back? Because someone could take control of the robots back without the use of the horn: Bran. It would explain why the CotF and their allies (Coldhands, Bloodraven, the Reeds) are helping him: without taking control of the WWs, the WWs can't be used to defend the CotF. Without controlling the WWs to attack those going north, the wall is no longer doing its job. If the wall is no longer useful, the CotF are doomed, and so are their beliefs and whatever it is that their buddies believe in, maybe the whole planet is doomed. The GO/WWs would want Bran dead, because he doesn't want to once again be under someone else's control. When Melissandre sees Bran with skulls around him, it could be Bran having retaken control of them.

I can totally see Jon once again playing the "everyone should shake hands" role, refusing to eliminate the WWs, for the greater cause, but that means Bran has to fulfill his role of taking over the GO or WWs' mind(s) (for a time...). Wonder what the long-term plan would be though, Bran isn't immortal either... Maybe a new promise of handing over princes in perpetuity? Can Bran be the prince who was promised? Doesn't really fit, but I can't imagine Jon or anyone else fulfilling such a role.

Edited by NonoNono

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I got to the first paragraph, where you explained that you would be using content from the show, and stopped reading. You cannot introduce show content in this forum. Go back to the first page of this forum, the book forum. "ASOIAF" means this is all about the books - "GOT" refers to the show. There is a pinned post that says, "Show spoilers - important". If you haven't read that, you should read it. If you edit your post quickly to remove show content, they might let you leave it here. If not, they may move it to the tv show forum or delete it.

I realize you are new, but a number of us are really trying to avoid show content because it does spoil the book discussion and probably contains major spoilers.

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22 minutes ago, Seams said:

I got to the first paragraph, where you explained that you would be using content from the show, and stopped reading. You cannot introduce show content in this forum. Go back to the first page of this forum, the book forum. "ASOIAF" means this is all about the books - "GOT" refers to the show. There is a pinned post that says, "Show spoilers - important". If you haven't read that, you should read it. If you edit your post quickly to remove show content, they might let you leave it here. If not, they may move it to the tv show forum or delete it.

I realize you are new, but a number of us are really trying to avoid show content because it does spoil the book discussion and probably contains major spoilers.

Yep saw that earlier and edited it all. There is no more references to it, sorry!

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The truce between the Others and the first men predate the starks.  I mean sure there were starks back then but they were not ruling the north.  The Starks cut their own deal much later.  The Others think the land belongs to them.  The Starks are the caretakers of the land and they wait for the arrival of the Others.  The frozen corpses of the winter kings were kept because they think the Others will bring them back.  

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On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

First, I'm new, so hello:)

Hello. And welcome!

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

Dragon Binder, and the Horn of Winter. The former seems like it could allow one to warg skinchange into a dragon, at the cost of their physical selves burning to death.

FTFY, since warg refers specifically to skinchanging into wolves. But to your point, I don’t think we have enough information to make this leap. 

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

The later is apparently nothing like it; it is said it could raise giants from the earth, and bring down the wall. What if the Horn of Winter is very much like Dragon Binder, except it allows you to warg into the White Walker(s), at the cost of freezing to death?

I suppose it is possible, but only because there’s nothing in the text that makes it clear it’s impossible. My point is, there’s really nothing in the text pointing to that, IMO.

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

Raising giants just means you can raise the dead. Bringing down the wall could mean that if you are the Great Other/WWs, you are pretty much in control of it (more on that further down).

Or it could mean you can raise giants, or something else. Why use “giants” if you mean the dead? Sure, it could be metaphorical or whatever, but then why use “giants”, since there are actual giants in the story? Seems like pointless obfuscation to me.

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

Anyway, it is said that the wall was built by Brandon the Builder, supposedly to protect the south against the WW, but with the help of giants. This was after the long night, after the truce with the CotF. But giants live north of the wall, why would they help build a wall only to be trapped on the other side with the WW?

But no one was trapped anywhere. Not the giants, not the FF, not the CotF. Martin has said it took hundreds of years for the Wall to be built, and thousands for it to reach its current height. There was plenty of time for everyone to go where they pleased.

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

The first men pretty much converted to the "religion" of the CotF.  The remaining CotF (as far as we know) are essentially all north of the wall. Again, why would they be north of it if the WW were a threat? I

See above.

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

t seems the Wall was raised to protect what lied beyond it. The original castles would have been built south of the wall to protect the passages leading through to the north side, which only the allies of the CotF would be allowed through to visit them. The Night Watch would have protected the wall from the men south of it. The Starks would have been the wardens of the north, protecting the NW, the Wall, and what lied beyond it. "Winter is coming!" could have been a threat. And sure, you could go around it, but beware, because the WW would come at you anyway.

There are a few possibilities here, the one you propose is one of them. 

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

But I think there was even more to the truce: the Night King and his Night Fort. The White Walkers existed before the Wall, and the first they must have served the CotF, because the first men started losing badly to the point where they eventually pretty much recognized the power of the CotF and came to a truce and followed their beliefs.

No, that’s not how it went down. The FM were winning against the CotF.

TWoIaF, The Coming of the First Men

“Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win.”

 

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

Presumably, it means the GO/WWs mind(s) was under control since they were used by the CotF to put pressure on the first men.

We don’t know that.

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

But the WWs continued to exist after the truce. So someone had to keep on controlling the first WWs, and as far as we know, no one is immortal, and over time one can lose themselves in someone else's head.

What if the truce was that the first born (or an important son, a "promised prince") of an important bloodline (eventually known as the Starks) would sacrifice themselves, by blowing the Horn of Winter, to warg into the WWs or their leader's head, to control them/him, rule over the Night Fort, protecting the wall and what lied beyond it? Over time, the warg would lose themselves in their heads, and another Stark would have to sacrifice themselves to retake control and their now forever-frozen bodies would be entombed in the crypts of Winterfell. Hence "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." and the odd WW-like references about the ones in the crypts (and all of the Starks' history, their swords, their motto, etc.).

I’m not sure I follow... are you talking about the Pact between the FM and the CotF? Because that happened long before the Long Night? 

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

They did this for a few generations, but eventually the promise was broken. If the old tales about the 13th Lord Commander are true, maybe the Stark that was in the NK's mind was wooed by the pale woman, or maybe it was a loved one he brought back to life, and so he thought they could go on, not wanting to let another Stark take over his mind. Or maybe it was Brandon the Breaker who didn't want to warg into the NK like he was supposed to, maybe he broke the Horn of Winter, and as the current Stark's mind started to fade, the NK-Stark started using his powers to bring back a dead lover and everything went south (well, north). In any case, the cycle is broken, the "robots are out of control", and Brandon the Breaker and his men have to take action; they attack the Night Fort and the NK flees north. Brandon continues north, and Joramun teams up because well, they don't want to be icicles! But since no one took over the NK's mind, eventually the Stark's mind vanishes completely. The "now sentient" NK doesn't try to make his way south, he leaves far north, with his "people", in the forever winter lands, wanting to stay very far away from the damn horn, or anyone. Could even explain the similar stories in Essos, maybe he kept going until he reached the other side but was pushed back again, so he settled in the forever winter lands.

This is... quite convoluted? And it doesn’t make much sense IMO. But there are things here I’m not even sure I understand. 

To the bold, nope. Martin was asked about the far north connecting to another continent, and he said no it doesn’t. 

5) Does Westeros connect to the eastern continent through the north?

No.

On 3/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, NonoNono said:

Brandon the Breaker turns the situation around: having lost control of "the robots", the Wall will now protect the realms south of it, the NW will protect the wall from the north, and the Starks are warden of the North, and over time "The north forgot", and the freefolk were eventually only remembered as enemies, the children forgotten. The NK/WW/GO stays where they are because life is alright there, no worries.

But why are the WWs now coming back? Because someone could take control of the robots back without the use of the horn: Bran. It would explain why the CotF and their allies (Coldhands, Bloodraven, the Reeds) are helping him: without taking control of the WWs, the WWs can't be used to defend the CotF. Without controlling the WWs to attack those going north, the wall is no longer doing its job. If the wall is no longer useful, the CotF are doomed, and so are their beliefs and whatever it is that their buddies believe in, maybe the whole planet is doomed. The GO/WWs would want Bran dead, because he doesn't want to once again be under someone else's control. When Melissandre sees Bran with skulls around him, it could be Bran having retaken control of them.

Leaf tells Bran that her people are dying out, they are going extinct. Also, there’s no one going north in numbers great enough to pose a threat. The only example we have is Mormont’s ranging, and we know how that turned out. 

To the bold, I think the point of Mel seeing Bran in the scene you mention is that BR/Bran are trying to communicate w/ her, and she’s just misreading the flames, as usual. Also, if Bran is retaking control of the WWs in the manner you propose, shouldn’t he have turned into an icy corpse, as per your explanation?

 

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I played cranium pong with your screed, allowing it to ricochet around inside me noggin!  Here's some reactions that it generated, notions sent floating out the other side like driftwood on the stream of consciousness:

The Watch blows its horn 3 times as their trucker code for white walkers.  There are 3 heads of the dragon, significantly, we're told.  Do the 3 horn blowings commemorate the idea that to bridge our Ice and Fire Divide the fire-blooded prophetic threesome, the "3 heads of the dragon," must complete their destiny by blowing the horn of winter and Otherizing themselves?   (They with their special blood would survive the transition bodily, instead of dying like mere mortals and warging an existing white walker body.  Similar to how the dragon horn explains any mortals who blow it will die, but phrases it as if some blowers might not be mortal and would get to survive the blowing.)

I like that the horn could be used by the Last Hero's gang to deputize themselves as White Walker Texas Rangers.  Then they'd go kick some long term ass up north like the ultimate jesse james outlaw bikers gang.  Them harrassing the Others all this time was the real reason humanity hasn't been attacked again....because the WWTRangers were keeping the Others on the defensive!    Being tapped to join this brigade would be like joining the deep special forces, becoming a ghost.

Your thing explains why the horn being dug up by humans--from a human burial site- - would so worry the Others that they'd saddle up to cattle drive the humans south to sweep the threat away.   Cuz the horn allows humanity to immitate the Others too closely and enjoy the Winter far too much for Their liking.

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The whole human population, with very few exceptions, either believe the WWs gone for thousands of years, or that they never even existed in the first place. 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

I played cranium pong with your screed, allowing it to ricochet around inside me noggin!  Here's some reactions that it generated, notions sent floating out the other side like driftwood on the stream of consciousness:

The Watch blows its horn 3 times as their trucker code for white walkers.  There are 3 heads of the dragon, significantly, we're told.  Do the 3 horn blowings commemorate the idea that to bridge our Ice and Fire Divide the fire-blooded prophetic threesome, the "3 heads of the dragon," must complete their destiny by blowing the horn of winter and Otherizing themselves?   (They with their special blood would survive the transition bodily, instead of dying like mere mortals and warging an existing white walker body.  Similar to how the dragon horn explains any mortals who blow it will die, but phrases it as if some blowers might not be mortal and would get to survive the blowing.)

I like that the horn could be used by the Last Hero's gang to deputize themselves as White Walker Texas Rangers.  Then they'd go kick some long term ass up north like the ultimate jesse james outlaw bikers gang.  Them harrassing the Others all this time was the real reason humanity hasn't been attacked again....because the WWTRangers were keeping the Others on the defensive!    Being tapped to join this brigade would be like joining the deep special forces, becoming a ghost.

Your thing explains why the horn being dug up by humans--from a human burial site- - would so worry the Others that they'd saddle up to cattle drive the humans south to sweep the threat away.   Cuz the horn allows humanity to immitate the Others too closely and enjoy the Winter far too much for Their liking.

Oh interesting.

Lightbringer sounds like an allegory for Lucifer (which means light bearer) or Prometheus in a way, the forbidden fruit, that kind of stuff.

So Azor Ahai could be the 13th lord commander, who, at the Night Fort, tried to forge a weapon to defeat the Others and eventually succeeded, but it required stabbing a loved one in the heart with dragon glass, which inadvertently turned her into a WW. So the corpse bride starts to turn children offered to her into other WWs, and the Night Watch is now essentially starting to make their own WW troops who could be powerful enough to defeat the Others; fight fire with fire, or maybe they are really turning against men. Brandon the Breaker realizes what happened and fights him off north with Joramun's help.

The R'hlor faith could be a sort of luciferian religion: they worship the one who "stole the fire from the gods" like a god himself. They would temp the heroes to do what one would consider sacrilegious to defeat the Others; become "gods", figuratively speaking, or more specifically turn yourself into a WW. A flaming heart = a heart burned by frozen fire, dragon glass.

Not sure where the horn fits in there anymore then, or why the crypts would have dead Starks with some WW-like traits.

But really, the idea of having taken a WW-like power makes a lot of sense.

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hello. And welcome!

You are right, my timeline is off.

So: CotF and first men fight, but why a truce if the children were losing? A mere change of heart on the part of the men? I thought the long night came as a result of the children losing, a desperate act. If not, then I can see what you mean, that the Others are maybe just natives to the Forever Winter, but then one has to wonder why they marched south, then left, and now return.

Edited by NonoNono

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4 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

.You are right, my timeline is off.

So: CotF and first men fight, but why a truce if the children were losing?

We get an explanation in a Bran chapter in AGoT. Luwin tells him the FM and the CotF fought for a long time, until the earth ran red w/ their blood, but more the CotF’s blood since men were bigger and stronger and had better weapons. Eventually the wiser of both races prevailed, and the Pact was signed. So, even though they were winning, the FM were suffering losses as well. And the wiser among both FM and CotF finally realised this is no way to live. 

4 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

A mere change of heart on the part of the men? I thought the long night came as a result of the children losing, a desperate act. If not, then I can see what you mean, that the Others are maybe just natives to the Forever Winter, but then one has to wonder why they marched south, then left, and now return.

They didn’t leave, they were defeated. Big difference. As to why and when they resurfaced, there are many theories but nothing that can be confirmed w/ what we know so far. 

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