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Poll: Is Lemore Actually Ashara?

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There's also Jeyne's hips and Bran's horse changing genders. With this much content and this much detail, mistakes are impossible to not make. He's human.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Albuquerque_NM

Eye colors get misconstrued in real life, but writing them that way without some indication to question what we're being told (which he actually did with both Egg and Aegon) opens the door to a slippery slope where one can write off any eye color because of lighting or unreliable narrator to fit a chosen outcome. 

Anyhow, just meant to make a clarification and not turn this into a debate thread. You sound decided as is which is fine.

The OP said we could debate around now, but yea Im decided on Lemore. Who else could she be and why have the character Ashara?

Jeynes hips are different because thats not Jeyne :D lol, nah it probably is, but just because Cat sees one thing with her "mother in law specs" and Jaime sees it another with his "why did Robb throw his kingdom away for this thot?" doesnt mean her hips are a different size. 

Right, there was something about Brans horse. I guess GRRM is just human (unless Dancer is a dragon lol) just for curiosity, do you have the citations?

Idk, Renlys eyes can be explained. Sansas not the most accurate pov and was in love with a green eyed prince at the time. And Renly wore a deep green shade of armor. 

Also slippery slopes are a thing in asoiaf, Jons mom, the unkiss, Barris memory, the mistrust of maesters and their history, grumkins and snarks

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I doubt he never bothered looking at her eyes since he looked at her face to be able to describe her as a handsome woman. Tyrion spent time with the woman while she was dressed. 

If he looked at her eyes it must have been in between povs. We're never told their not purple. Shes handsome, which isnt a bad thing. Ashara was a beaut but that was like 20 years and she's probably had a hard life since then. Either way shes pretty enough to gawk at in the morning and masturbate to at night

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Ashara is alive in the Neck, amongst the reeds, it is known (really worth reading, even if you don't buy it):

More likely candidates if her identity is indeed a mystery: Wenda the White Fawn, Mellario of Norvos, Mallora Hightower the Mad Maid, Wylla the wet nurse (and fAegon is either Brandon's or Ned's son with Ashara). I personally hesitate between the Mad Maid and Wylla.

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While I do not think Lemore is Ashara, I do think it is perfectly possible that she has Valyrian heritage and/or purple eyes.  I do not believe in the argument from eye-color silence.  

Lemore's eyes have never been described.  Therefore they could be anything: green, grey, brown, blue, black, purple.  Whatever.     

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6 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

I think so because Tyrion is a dog he just look at the woman body while she is naked not her eyes. Also she the mother of Jon Snow Ashara=Lemore

I would only point out here that because we only have a couple examples of Tyrion describing Septa Lemore and he rather markedly leaves out any description of her eyes, it does not follow that he never looked at her eyes. This is a trip of what? Months? At least more than one month I'd guess. I'd bet Tyrion knows full well what Lemore's eyes are like. That doesn't mean he knows what Lady Ashara's eyes looked liked some seventeen years before when she disappeared.

Tyrion is a man of twenty-seven, or twenty-six,  when he meets Septa Lemore. Which means he was all of perhaps ten years old when Ashara disappears. Given what we know of Tyrion's childhood it is almost impossible to believe he had a chance of meeting Lady Dayne to see her striking eyes or any other aspect of her beauty. I've no doubt Tyrion has memories of the rebellion and before, but Lady Ashara almost certainly isn't one of them. the best chance they had met would be in 276 in Lannisport at the tourney in honor of Viserys's birth. Which would make Tyrion only about three years old, if Lady Ashara happened to attend the event. We have no proof she did, but to think Tyrion would remember her amongst all of the visitors to the tourney would be hard to believe.

So, no, I've no doubt Tyrion knows what Lemore's eyes look like, but I also highly doubt he has any memory or knowledge of what Ashara looked like to compare the two. It doesn't surprise me in the least he wouldn't make the connection. Which is how George gets away with not giving the reader the information to make the connection while seeing the scenes through Tyrion's point of view.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The OP said we could debate around now, but yea Im decided on Lemore. Who else could she be and why have the character Ashara?

Jeynes hips are different because thats not Jeyne :D lol, nah it probably is, but just because Cat sees one thing with her "mother in law specs" and Jaime sees it another with his "why did Robb throw his kingdom away for this thot?" doesnt mean her hips are a different size. 

Right, there was something about Brans horse. I guess GRRM is just human (unless Dancer is a dragon lol) just for curiosity, do you have the citations?

Idk, Renlys eyes can be explained. Sansas not the most accurate pov and was in love with a green eyed prince at the time. And Renly wore a deep green shade of armor. 

Also slippery slopes are a thing in asoiaf, Jons mom, the unkiss, Barris memory, the mistrust of maesters and their history, grumkins and snarks

Bold: I don't know. Not that invested in that part of the story so it's one of the things I'll just wait for. The eyes and personality and stuff just don't work for me. 

Jeyne's hips: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068

Quote
July 14, 2011
Union Square Signing

[Note: This report refers to the question of Jeyne Westerlings hips, described by Catelyn as being "good" for the purposes of having children, and described by Jaime as "narrow". This seeming contradiction has sparked theories that the girl Jaime sees and is told is Jeyne is in fact an impostor.]

I actually asked GRRM about this at the union square signing. When he spoke he said some mismatched descriptions are him doing it on purpose, and some are mistakes. And the mistakes are really unfortunate because it detracts from when he does it on purpose.

When we approached the stage for signings we had the chance to ask a quick question, and he told me that that the hips were a mistake unfortunately.

Citations from the books directly on the horse genders? No. There's no standout keyword to find it easily and I won't bother to look. Maybe if someone else has it handy and they can put it up. 

Did find this before though. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1280

Quote

Q: Do you give your books to read to some friends, and do you change things when they say you they don't make sense?
A: I do. I especially want them to seek out discrepancies. They do, but still some mistakes slip through. There was a matter of Targaryen dynasty when had to change brother of one kings into an uncle, because a fan wrote to me that the dates aren't consistent. He was right. Sometimes the eyes of some character change color, and my Dutch translator wrote to me an a mail tahn one of the horses changed sex between AGOT and ACOK.

I just can't go along with this one. It's the same process which enables stuff like Jon's eyes are very dark and his hair is brown --> unreliable narrator/lighting/other characters missed kindergarten the day they taught colors = Jon's a secret Tyrell!!!!! GRRM tells us somehow if we're to question what we see. Otherwise it's license to just go rogue with about anything in the books. 

Now this is a stronger argument for Lemore being Ashara. Not enough for me personally, but I think it's reasonable when combined with other things like Lemore and Ashara are both connected to babies and diving into water: GRRM kinda backed himself into a corner on hyping up Ashara's eyes too much before deciding to have her appear later, thus he didn’t mention her eyes as it’d be too obvious and decided to just accept that he didn’t have a good option here. 

Here's the search engine for the SSMs. Maybe you can find more on Ashara. 

http://cse.google.com/cse?cx=006888510641072775866:vm4n1jrzsdy

:cheers:

 

Oh - and here's the def for a handsome woman. I don't think this excludes Ashara. 

A woman with the kind of refined beauty and attractiveness that requires poise, dignity, and strength of mind and character, things that often come with age; not merely sex-appeal. Usually applied to a woman who is also very well-groomed and from an upper class background.

 

Edited by Lollygag

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10 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Yeah, that's basically the main idea.  It's for posterity and bragging rights.  And, while I know the show will be different than the books, I'd like to get a few poll answers in place before Season 8 surprises start to influence people's opinions.

Woohoo! Bragging rights!

It would be funny if people started betting $$$ on theories. For free, choosing which theories are right is easy.

But betting $$$ on it, best believe a lot of people would back out. lol

Person 1: "Septa Lemore is Ashara!!"

Person 2: "Would you bet $1,000 on it?"

Person 1: "Nevermind..."

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Ashara is alive in the Neck, amongst the reeds, it is known

"it is known"
.....i didn't know Meera's mom is Ashara, I never heard that one before.

How did one of the most beautiful woman in Westeros...with her infamous haunting violet eyes, from a noble family in the WARM climate of Dorne, hand maiden to the Princess Elia in a big castle, sister to the Sword of the Morning ... fall in love with a small cowardly man (who remained cowardly throughout the Tourney of Harrenhal) and be convinced to have sex with him ... giving birth to the bastard daughter Meera (who is Robb's age) in Starfall 9 months later after Harrenhal, AND BE CONVINCED TO FAKE HER OWN DEATH AND BABY MEERA's STILLBORN DEATH, even though she has no reason to fear for her life or be ashamed of raising a bastard in Dorne ... TO LIVE IN A SWAMP with the poor crannogmen under a secret identity?

I would love to hear the explanation to all of this ... while disregarding Barristan Selmy's comment on how Ashara "looked to Stark" or how Meera/Jojen never spoke about their mother.

Hell, IF the explanation to this "true-story" is convincing, I may even place a $25,000 bet of my own money that Ashara Dayne is Meera's mother, and Jojen is destined to be the new Sword of the Morning. 

Edited by The Map Guy

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5 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

"it is known"
.....i didn't know Meera's mom is Ashara, I never heard that one before.

How did one of the most beautiful woman in Westeros...with her infamous haunting violet eyes, from a noble family in the WARM climate of Dorne, hand maiden to the Princess Elia in a big castle, sister to the Sword of the Morning ... fall in love with a small cowardly man (who remained cowardly throughout the Tourney of Harrenhal) and be convinced to have sex with him ... giving birth to the bastard daughter Meera (who is Robb's age) in Starfall 9 months later after Harrenhal, AND BE CONVINCED TO FAKE HER OWN DEATH AND BABY MEERA's STILLBORN DEATH, even though she has no reason to fear for her life or be ashamed of raising a bastard in Dorne ... TO LIVE IN A SWAMP with the poor crannogmen under a secret identity?

I would love to hear the explanation to all of this ... while disregarding Barristan Selmy's comment on how Ashara "looked to Stark" or how Meera/Jojen never spoke about their mother.

Hell, IF the explanation to this "true-story" is convincing, I may even place a $25,000 bet of my own money that Ashara Dayne is Meera's mother, and Jojen is destined to be the new Sword of the Morning. 

Start by reading the OP of the link I have provided then... :rolleyes: 

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4 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

Start by reading the OP of the link I have provided then... :rolleyes: 

It's long ... I'll give it a try when I have free time.
I'm looking forward to see how the small cowardly guy got the hot girl at the party ... and the reason better not be "magic".

GRRM writes real life situations, not fairy tales. Nice guys finish last.

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4 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

It's long ... I'll give it a try when I have free time.
I'm looking forward to see how the small cowardly guy got the hot girl at the party ... and the reason better not be "magic".

GRRM writes real life situations, not fairy tales. Nice guys finish last.

Read it! It's one of the best ever laid out theory out here and @maidenandwarrior was unanimously praised at the time.

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11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Bold: I don't know. Not that invested in that part of the story so it's one of the things I'll just wait for. The eyes and personality and stuff just don't work for me. 

Jeyne's hips: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068

Citations from the books directly on the horse genders? No. There's no standout keyword to find it easily and I won't bother to look. Maybe if someone else has it handy and they can put it up. 

Did find this before though. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1280

I just can't go along with this one. It's the same process which enables stuff like Jon's eyes are very dark and his hair is brown --> unreliable narrator/lighting/other characters missed kindergarten the day they taught colors = Jon's a secret Tyrell!!!!! GRRM tells us somehow if we're to question what we see. Otherwise it's license to just go rogue with about anything in the books. 

Now this is a stronger argument for Lemore being Ashara. Not enough for me personally, but I think it's reasonable when combined with other things like Lemore and Ashara are both connected to babies and diving into water: GRRM kinda backed himself into a corner on hyping up Ashara's eyes too much before deciding to have her appear later, thus he didn’t mention her eyes as it’d be too obvious and decided to just accept that he didn’t have a good option here. 

Here's the search engine for the SSMs. Maybe you can find more on Ashara. 

http://cse.google.com/cse?cx=006888510641072775866:vm4n1jrzsdy

:cheers:

 

Oh - and here's the def for a handsome woman. I don't think this excludes Ashara. 

A woman with the kind of refined beauty and attractiveness that requires poise, dignity, and strength of mind and character, things that often come with age; not merely sex-appeal. Usually applied to a woman who is also very well-groomed and from an upper class background.

 

Im not sure what part of the story Ashara would be invested in. Lemores eyes, and other descriptions are pretty scant which is weird because Tyrions always checking her out; But her personality is similar to what we know of Asharas. Flirtatious, smiling/laughing.

Jeyne Jeyne, it rhymes with explain. Like we said, asoiaf is a slippery slope. SSMs can be just as crazy and Im more inclined to mistrust them. The quote you gave though isnt an SSM, its some dude at Union Square (and Chelsea folk are crazy lol) It probably was a mistake, though small enough to not matter

So about Dancer, I found this. (Are we sure its just Brans horse? Not Silver or anyother horse?)

Quote

"Go," Bran whispered to his own horse. He touched her neck lightly, and the small chestnut filly started forward. Bran had named her Dancer.

Quote

"Aggar says no horses are missing."

"Dancer is still in his stall?"

So Theon calls Dancer a boy. But what do Ironborn know about horses? Lol

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18 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Woohoo! Bragging rights!

It would be funny if people started betting $$$ on theories. For free, choosing which theories are right is easy.

But betting $$$ on it, best believe a lot of people would back out. lol

Person 1: "Septa Lemore is Ashara!!"

Person 2: "Would you bet $1,000 on it?"

Person 1: "Nevermind..."

If only there was a way to make that work.  Like with betting on the Predictit website.  But they only do politics, not literature.

Anyway, assuming I am still around and still have my posting privileges, my intent is to congratulate, and where appropriate, acknowledge the superior wisdom and prescience of, those who voted correctly.  As to others, I see no way of forcing them to do even that. 

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Septa Lemore's eye color is never described.  It's almost as if George is hiding that fact.  I'll stick to my earlier vote of "yes", although I am not confident enough that I would put money on it.

I have seen the Ashara is Jyana Reed theory, and I like it though have doubts.  I would like to point out that Meera's story contains an awful lot of info about Ashara.  However, Jojen and Meera's description don't match Ashara being their mother.

 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I'm looking forward to see how the small cowardly guy got the hot girl at the party ...

Something like this (the last try) ->

:)

Edited by Megorova

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On 3/23/2019 at 6:41 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

I think so because Tyrion is a dog he just look at the woman body while she is naked not her eyes. Also she the mother of Jon Snow Ashara=Lemore

People overestimate Tyrion's power of observation.  

I'm saying yes on this question. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

If only there was a way to make that work.  Like with betting on the Predictit website.  But they only do politics, not literature.

Anyway, assuming I am still around and still have my posting privileges, my intent is to congratulate, and where appropriate, acknowledge the superior wisdom and prescience of, those who voted correctly.  As to others, I see no way of forcing them to do even that. 

"and still have my posting privileges" ... you got a couple of warnings already? lol

 

The Predictit-type website is an awesome idea! Let's call it the #TheoryPool, but we can use imaginary currency.

Every member of this site will get some fantasy currency to start out. More experienced members can have a little more. All the moderators can have a couple of golden dragons.

And people can bet their fantasy currency on theories, until it is officially revealed in TWOW or ADOS.

For example:
Lemore's identity:

  • Ashara - Member#1 bets 500 copper pennies, Member#2 bets 2 silver stags
  • Elia Martel - Member#3 bets 3 silver stags
  • fAegon's non-famous mother - Member#4 bets 1,000 copper pennies, Moderator#1 bets 1 golden dragon
  • No one important, just a regular Septa - Member#5 bets 4 silver stags, Moderator#2 bets 3 golden dragons

If it turns out to be Elia Martel in TWOW, the winners divide up ALL the loser's money.

There will be other Pools where members can bet their fantasy currency ... like Jon's Parentage? what happened at TOJ? or who is the author of the Pink Letter?

Put up or shut up!

Bragging rights belong to the winner with the most money won (for the members with a lot of starting money), and another winner with the highest percentage gain (for the common folks).

Anyone down to play with the TheoryPool game?? ...might as well, TWOW ain't coming out any time soon!

Edited by The Map Guy

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Something like this (the last try) ->

:)

Wow, I actually remembered this movie lol.

So Howland will stand up for Ashara during some conflict, Howland gets his ass kicked, and the hot girl pities him & sleeps with him later???

That is a little disappointing if that actually happened at the feast of Harrenhal, and not because it is a little pathetic ... but its because this story would make more sense with Lyanna instead of Ashara.

Lyanna & Robert argues, Howland steps in to defend pretty girl Lyanna. Howland gets punched in the face, and Lyanna pities Howland and they go to her tent and sleeps with him.

Oh my God, did I just start the Howland + Lyanna = Jon theory??? I hope not, but it still sounds better than Howland + Ashara = Meera & Jojen

 

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19 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Read it! It's one of the best ever laid out theory out here and @maidenandwarrior was unanimously praised at the time.

I read it. I gave it a chance. It is nicely written and presented, but doesn't make the theory true. There are way too many holes.

So according to that theory:

  • Howland used this pickup line on Ashara:
    Howland: "Hi Ashara! You are a Dayne from Dorne. Your family is looked down upon there. I am a Reed from the North. My family is looked down upon there too. We have something in common! Let's hook up!"
    Ashara: Okay!
  • At TOJ ... with Ned, Howland & Sir Arthur Dayne left standing in the middle of the Combat:
    Sir Arthur Dayne with Dawn, alive with light: Who is Ashara's baby daddy??? Who??
    Howland: Arthur, I am your niece's father.
    Arthur: Noo! That is not true! That is impossible!!
    Howland: Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
    Arthur: NOOOOOo! NOooo!
    Howland: Arthur, we can destroy Robert. We have foreseen this. This is your destiny. Join us and together as brother in-laws, we can see that Jon Targaryen will rule the Kingdom in the future!
  • At Starfall:
    Ashara: "Howland, this is our 12-15 month old daughter Meera, we conceived her at Harrenhal"
    Howland: "Never mind that. We need to tell everyone that your daughter is stillborn, and you need to fake your death, and your brother Arthur's death too. ALL OF US needs to come with me and live in a swamp in the North!"
    Ashara: But why?
    Howland: To keep R+L=J a secret. No one can know Jon's origins!
    Ashara: Why do I have to fake my own death, but you don't have to fake yours? I don't even care about Jon. Jon is the bastard son of my friend's cheating husband. You want me to dishonor Elia's memories?
    Howland: Just listen to me!!
    Ashara: Fine, lets fake our deaths and move from our warm castle in Dorne to the North ... and not just any part of the North, but to a swamp ... with no castles. So should I pack my evening gowns for Greywater Watch?
  • H+A=M&J theory does not address Barristan Selmy's comment of how "Ashara looked to Stark"
  • H+A=M&J theory does not address why Meera & Jojen never once talked about their mother, who seems to be extremely important secret character
  • H+A=M&J theory does not seem to have an overall purpose to the current story, other than keeping Ashara and Arthur alive

Sorry I don't think I am betting $25,000 of my own money on Howland + Ashara=Meera & Jojen. I am not convinced. You are more than welcome to bet your own money on it.

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