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Poll: Is Lemore Actually Ashara?

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9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Howland: Arthur, I am your niece's father.
Arthur: Noo! That is not true! That is impossible!!
Howland: Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
Arthur: NOOOOOo! NOooo!

There is another...

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Yes, or at least more likely than not.

The eyes aren't an issue for me. We don't really know if purple eyes are anything remarkable in Essos. The people of Lys have them, and that's a whole city state.

Besides - grrm is not careless with the facts, he's carefree. If he thinks Lemore should have rainbow eyes that no-one actually notices, that's what she'll have.

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I've only really answered "yes" to this poll, but instead of going on a long rant about why I think this is true, let me just add a link to a thread I started last year about my speculation concerning Ashara. It's called "Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities" and is meant to be fun. I hope any readers find it so.

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No. Some people who are presumed dead need to be dead instead of roaming the world under false identities, FFS.

My money is on Wenda the White Fawn, whose entertaining custom of branding the butts of noble prisoners was brought up on two separate occasions, as if it somehow mattered.

 

On 3/23/2019 at 5:43 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion verified Young Griffs orgin by shining a torch directly to his eyes, he never bothered looking at Lemores eyes, he was looking at her other body parts

Nonsense. When Lemore remarks that Aegon is not the only one who "must needs hide", Tyrion starts observing her very closely and wonders who she might be, so here would be an excellent moment to remark that her eyes were of deep blue, almost purple, or something like that.

On 3/24/2019 at 12:23 AM, SFDanny said:

So, no, I've no doubt Tyrion knows what Lemore's eyes look like, but I also highly doubt he has any memory or knowledge of what Ashara looked like to compare the two. It doesn't surprise me in the least he wouldn't make the connection. Which is how George gets away with not giving the reader the information to make the connection while seeing the scenes through Tyrion's point of view.

I doubt he would have figured Ashara out, but the line of thought about her purple eyes should have been present, if that was the case. A middle-aged woman with stretchmarks or her belly, is travelling in a peculiar company with a boy of about sixteen who is masking himself. If there were similarities between the two, such as eye colour, an inquisitive mind should start wondering if the woman might be the boy's mother. Yet, no such thought ever occurs.

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The eyes aren't an issue for me. We don't really know if purple eyes are anything remarkable in Essos. The people of Lys have them, and that's a whole city state.

But Lemore is from Westeros, not Essos, so for her, purple eyes would be highly unusual.

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Besides - grrm is not careless with the facts, he's carefree. If he thinks Lemore should have rainbow eyes that no-one actually notices, that's what she'll have.

Nonsense. If her eye colour was somehow prominent, even a plotpoint, he needs to make someone notice. Introducing notable eyes a book later makes about as much sense as claiming that Lemore had been walking around with a duck on her head the whole time but no-one ever commented on it.

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15 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

My money is on Wenda the White Fawn, whose entertaining custom of branding the butts of noble prisoners was brought up on two separate occasions, as if it somehow mattered.

That's why it's possible, that Pretty Meris, who is a torturer from Windblown, is Wenda the White Fawn. Wenda disappeared in Westeros, and Meris appeared in Essos, both events happened ~20 years ago. It seems, that Wenda was a sadist, and to be a sadist is an appropriate professional quality for a torturer. So it's likely, that it's the same person - Wenda/Meris.

Also could be, that she is Brienne's mother, and descendant of Duncan the Tall. So she gave birth to Brienne, who now is ~20 years old, and then went to Essos, that's why nothing is known about Brienne's mother. Both of them are tall, ugly, blonde, female-warriors. And both of them have nicknames, that are mockery of their looks - "Pretty" Meris and Brienne the "Beauty".

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

That's why it's possible, that Pretty Meris, who is a torturer from Windblown, is Wenda the White Fawn. Wenda disappeared in Westeros, and Meris appeared in Essos, both events happened ~20 years ago. It seems, that Wenda was a sadist, and to be a sadist is an appropriate professional quality for a torturer. So it's likely, that it's the same person - Wenda/Meris.

If she was a sadist, she wouldn't restrict her torture to a particular social class. It is more like a personal grudge, that might have had something to do with her pregnancy.

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On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 9:10 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Im not sure what part of the story Ashara would be invested in. Lemores eyes, and other descriptions are pretty scant which is weird because Tyrions always checking her out; But her personality is similar to what we know of Asharas. Flirtatious, smiling/laughing.

Jeyne Jeyne, it rhymes with explain. Like we said, asoiaf is a slippery slope. SSMs can be just as crazy and Im more inclined to mistrust them. The quote you gave though isnt an SSM, its some dude at Union Square (and Chelsea folk are crazy lol) It probably was a mistake, though small enough to not matter

So about Dancer, I found this. (Are we sure its just Brans horse? Not Silver or anyother horse?)

So Theon calls Dancer a boy. But what do Ironborn know about horses? Lol

The SSMs are posted on this site, so I give them credibility. I really don't care if you're set on Lemore being Ashara. But on GRRM not making mistakes, you're really toeing the line of willful ignorance now. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1f116e/spoilers_all_jayne_westerling_and_her_hips/

GRRM brings up mistakes here in a video from a F&B promo from a few months ago. Sorry I can't point you to exactly where it is, but there's other good stuff in here that makes it worth it.

 

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. When Lemore remarks that Aegon is not the only one who "must needs hide", Tyrion starts observing her very closely and wonders who she might be, so here would be an excellent moment to remark that her eyes were of deep blue, almost purple, or something like that.

And he never does! Could Lemore’s eyes be purple, and Tyrion just failed to think about it? Exactly when he’s trying to figure out who is who, no less? I suppose he could, but I have yet to see Martin go for that type of cheat. 

I’m a no, by the way. Ashara most certainly isn’t Lemore. 

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On 3/25/2019 at 9:08 AM, lalt said:

There is another...

A twin sister? Nothing, Jon Snow knows ...

 

Anyways I really hope GRRM is not cheating by avoiding Lemore's eye color if his intentions is to make her Ashara.

Without a doubt, purple eyes on an attractive/handsome dark haired woman will definitely stand out, and Tyrion would have called it out.

The only way he wouldn't mention her eye color is if it matched the color of her hair .... making the feature very ordinary on dark haired woman. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The SSMs are posted on this site, so I give them credibility. I really don't care if you're set on Lemore being Ashara. But on GRRM not making mistakes, you're really toeing the line of willful ignorance now. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1f116e/spoilers_all_jayne_westerling_and_her_hips/

GRRM brings up mistakes here in a video from a F&B promo from a few months ago. Sorry I can't point you to exactly where it is, but there's other good stuff in here that makes it worth it.

 

Thanks. Lol, that guy. Good interview, it was definitely worth it.

So its about at 30.15. He only talks about the horse (singular, so Dancer. Which I do admit is a mistake because surely Theon would have known) and the "people's eye color" (so im thinking maybe its more then Renly?)

He also said something strange "And then in the third book, I said, 'He had blue green eyes that seemed to change color... according to the light." 

I dont remember anything of that sort. And it certainly cant be Renly.

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The SSMs are posted on this site, so I give them credibility. I really don't care if you're set on Lemore being Ashara. But on GRRM not making mistakes, you're really toeing the line of willful ignorance now. 

Lol now whos being wilfully ignorant? Or wilfully trusting I suppose. If GRRM can make mistakes then surely this site can as well? 

I once threw a tantrum because the wiki insinuated Tyrion made a mockery out of the BBW, the wikis connected to this site too. People make mistakes, the internets full of those examples. So hearsay on the internet, well Im gonna continue to toe the line on wilful ignorance :D

 

Edited by Hugorfonics

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. When Lemore remarks that Aegon is not the only one who "must needs hide", Tyrion starts observing her very closely and wonders who she might be, so here would be an excellent moment to remark that her eyes were of deep blue, almost purple, or something like that.

I doubt he would have figured Ashara out, but the line of thought about her purple eyes should have been present, if that was the case. A middle-aged woman with stretchmarks or her belly, is travelling in a peculiar company with a boy of about sixteen who is masking himself. If there were similarities between the two, such as eye colour, an inquisitive mind should start wondering if the woman might be the boy's mother. Yet, no such thought ever occurs.

Thats a good point, nevertheless we are not privy to Lemores eyes, nor her hair color or anything really. 

He doesn't "observe her", i mean he checks her out all the time, but its purely sexual not like detective work or anything. He wonders who she is but that only lasted one thought, he never asked her or played the Halfmaester in Cyvess over it as he gets kidnapped by Jorah pretty soon after that.

Perhaps a septas robe hides the eyes, or back in the day she wore clothes to enhance her eye color. Like Dany 

Quote

She had chosen a Qartheen gown today. The deep violet silk brought out the purple of her eyes.

I've been thinking. If it is Ashara then people will naturally question if shes Young Griffs mother thusly throwing Aegons whole heritage into suspect. Which should happen, because it is

Edited by Hugorfonics

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thanks. Lol, that guy. Good interview, it was definitely worth it.

So its about at 30.15. He only talks about the horse (singular, so Dancer. Which I do admit is a mistake because surely Theon would have known) and the "people's eye color" (so im thinking maybe its more then Renly?)

He also said something strange "And then in the third book, I said, 'He had blue green eyes that seemed to change colors... In the light" 

I dont remember anything of that sort. And it certainly cant be Renly.

Lol now whos being wilfully ignorant? Or wilfully trusting I suppose. If GRRM can make mistakes then surely this site can as well? 

I once threw a tantrum because the wiki insinuated Tyrion made a mockery out of the BBW, the wikis connected to this site too. People make mistakes, the internets full of those examples. So hearsay on the internet, well Im gonna continue to toe the line on wilful ignorance :D 

 

I said I give the SSM's "credibility" (the word I specifically used) based on them being on GRRM's own site managed by his peeps/co-authors. I never said they're perfect. You've been fighting GRRM making mistakes at every turn which is not only unbelievable given the tremendous amount of content, but just not true per his own words. You denied the SSM quotes about the mistakes and you knocked them down as you don't believe them based on nothing really. Then I put up a video of GRRM himself from a few months ago. 

What I'm not going to do is believe SSMs when I find them convenient and then discredit them when they're in my way and use my own arbitrary preferences as the only qualifier as to their accuracy or not. If someone denies Jeyne's hips as a mistake when the source is GRRM's own site, I want more than FAKE NEWS! to substantiate that claim.

But I'm glad you now agree that people, including GRRM, make mistakes. :D

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 1:03 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Yea thats what they say. I dont buy it, GRRM is too good to make mistakes, blue and green eyes are often interchangeable in the real world.

Lots of moving the goal posts and cherry picking here. 

Edited by Lollygag

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16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I said I give the SSM's "credibility" (the word I specifically used) based on them being on GRRM's own site managed by his peeps/co-authors. I never said they're perfect. You've been fighting GRRM making mistakes at every turn which is not only unbelievable given the tremendous amount of content, but just not true per his own words. You denied the SSM quotes about the mistakes and you knocked them down as you don't believe them based on nothing really. Then I put up a video of GRRM himself from a few months ago. 

What I'm not going to do is believe SSMs when I find them convenient and then discredit them when they're in my way and use my own arbitrary preferences as the only qualifier as to their accuracy or not. If someone denies Jeyne's hips as a mistake when the source is GRRM's own site, I want more than FAKE NEWS! to substantiate that claim.

But I'm glad you now agree that people, including GRRM, make mistakes. :D

Lots of moving the goal posts and cherry picking here. 

The thing is once we admit that GRRM is prone to mistakes, well thats as much of a slippery slope as we can get. (And I have admitted that Dancers gender is suspect) Where as mistrusting everything SSM would be the safe bet. Not that everything SSM is wrong, but some are, as I have no idea what GRRM is saying about blue-green eyes changing color in book 3. In fact him talking about a mistake in the book and then explaining his fix which is actually a mistake, is all hilariously confusing.

Im not trying to move the goal post, just tryna figure shit out

 

 

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9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

No. Some people who are presumed dead need to be dead instead of roaming the world under false identities, FFS.

We absolutely agree on this. My bet is on Gerion Lannister. It is rather funny about how much Martin gives JRRT crap about the one character he kills and brings back to life, when Martin uses it over and over again. I'm still not sure what Lady Stoneheart's purpose is in the story. We will have to see how George handles Jon's hoped for resurrection.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

My money is on Wenda the White Fawn, whose entertaining custom of branding the butts of noble prisoners was brought up on two separate occasions, as if it somehow mattered.

While Wenda would be a curiosity as a minor character brought back, if not from death, at least from historical obscurity, what does she bring to whole pretender/hidden prince story of Young Griff? My main reasons for thinking Lemore is Ashara are, first, Martin has made a point of saying Ashara's body was never found. Like his refusal to say Aegon was dead, this too seems to point to something more for Ashara in the story. Secondly, some character must fill the five year gap that we have been given between Connington's banishment and his "death," or more importantly his introduction to Young Griff. I don't buy Lord Jon foolishly accepting Varys's or Illyrio's testimony that the boy is who they say he is. But, again more importantly, I don't buy that Varys and Illyrio have nursed this secret plot along for seventeen years or so without a way to convince Prince Doran and his fellow secret loyalist lords that Young Griff is Aegon. There may be some lords who don't care if he is a pretender or not, but that doesn't include Doran, Oberyn and anyone with a good bit of distrust for Lord Varys.

Ashara as Lemore provides the solution to that five-year-gap which is why I think Martin has constructed the plot of this story in the way he has. If Ashara Dayne steps forward with a story about how she was present when Aegon was switched, we have a witness others will believe, and the readers might as well.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. When Lemore remarks that Aegon is not the only one who "must needs hide", Tyrion starts observing her very closely and wonders who she might be, so here would be an excellent moment to remark that her eyes were of deep blue, almost purple, or something like that.

I would argue the scene is more of a way of ending any doubt in the reader's mind that Lemore has a hidden history which is important going forward and remains to be revealed. I don't see any visual inspection of Lemore in this scene that conspicuously leaves out the color of her eyes. All Tyrion remarks on is the change in they type of clothing she is wearing. Which is the key for the reader to note she is hiding her Westerosi origins, rather than proclaim them in her Septa's garb.

If her eye color should be noted, it should have been in the first scene where Lemore is swimming naked off the Shy Maid. We have argued this point in the past, so I know I won't convince you of my point of view concerning that. If you want me to restate my views, I'd be happy to do so, but let me know. With respect, thanks for the conversation.

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6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He doesn't "observe her", i mean he checks her out all the time, but its purely sexual not like detective work or anything. He wonders who she is but that only lasted one thought, he never asked her or played the Halfmaester in Cyvess over it as he gets kidnapped by Jorah pretty soon after that.

Quote

Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

That much for Tyrion never paying close attention to Lemore except in a sexual way.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps a septas robe hides the eyes, or back in the day she wore clothes to enhance her eye color. Like Dany 

 

GRRM never describes anyone in Westeros as wearing a burka, so no, septa's robes don't cover eyes. And while eye colour can be enhanced by clothes, white is definitely not one ever mention as supressing the purple.

 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

We absolutely agree on this. My bet is on Gerion Lannister. It is rather funny about how much Martin gives JRRT crap about the one character he kills and brings back to life, when Martin uses it over and over again. I'm still not sure what Lady Stoneheart's purpose is in the story. We will have to see how George handles Jon's hoped for resurrection.

Yeah, that's ironic.

Though, it must be admitted that Glorfindel was given a ride back, as well. I think GRRM's main beef is that the trauma of death didn't impact Tolkien's characters (though with Gandalf a Maia and Glorfindel a High Elf, that's hardly a fault). 

As for Lady Stoneheart, I can see there a couple potential plot points: 

- she's an embodiment of the destructive nature of revenge, which could be connected to Arya's arc and the gift of mercy (but not before she exacts a large-scale revenge on the Freys aka Red Wedding 2.0)

- she and Robb's will might come together in the Neck and affect Jon's arc, either continuing or offsetting (which I hope for) that last terrible exchange over Bran's bed. She might even ultimately do what Berric did for her - give up her life to resurrect Jon, and that would be huge.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

While Wenda would be a curiosity as a minor character brought back, if not from death, at least from historical obscurity, what does she bring to whole pretender/hidden prince story of Young Griff?

I see a potential connection to the Golden Company, through the Toynes (Simon Toyne from the Brotherhood, Miles Toyne the GC leader and the one who made the deal with Illyrio), and perhaps to the beginning of Illyrio's scheme. Perhaps also some background information about Elia and/or Arthur Dayne? - Oh. Elia and Arthur. Well. Probably not.

I agree that Ashara would be more important to the overall plot but if Lemore turns out to be her, this will be the first time in ASOIAF that I'll scream foul writing over a plot twist. 

Besides, there was an awful lot about the Brotherhood in ADWD, and not just in Jaime's PoV as a part of his reminiscencing about the past.

 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

I would argue the scene is more of a way of ending any doubt in the reader's mind that Lemore has a hidden history which is important going forward and remains to be revealed. I don't see any visual inspection of Lemore in this scene that conspicuously leaves out the color of her eyes. All Tyrion remarks on is the change in they type of clothing she is wearing. Which is the key for the reader to note she is hiding her Westerosi origins, rather than proclaim them in her Septa's garb.

I believe that if you watch someone closely, any unusual or revealing sign should be brought to attention. This does not happen. Also, this is the first time that Tyrion questions her background, which, to me, suggests he never pondered if she might be YG's mother, i.e. there was no visual sign that would lead his thoughts in this direction.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

If her eye color should be noted, it should have been in the first scene where Lemore is swimming naked off the Shy Maid. We have argued this point in the past, so I know I won't convince you of my point of view concerning that. If you want me to restate my views, I'd be happy to do so, but let me know. With respect, thanks for the conversation.

You're welcome. I guess it's not necessary to go over that again, as I agree that that would have been the right time. I only believe that if then the eye colour could have been dropped as perhaps unimportant, this instance of watching her closely is when it should have been brought up if it was in any way unusual or significant.

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16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. When Lemore remarks that Aegon is not the only one who "must needs hide", Tyrion starts observing her very closely and wonders who she might be, 

 

This is misleading though.
Earlier (Tyrion IV) Tyrion has already decided he has no interest in Lemore. 

Quote

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

Later he briefly wonders more about her. This is Tyrion XI.

Quote
Lemore emerged on deck with the prince in tow. When she saw Tyrion, she rushed across the deck to hug him. "The Mother is merciful. We have prayed for you, Hugor."
You did, at least. "I won't hold that against you."
Young Griff's greeting was less effusive. The princeling was in a sullen mood, angry that he had been forced to remain on the Shy Maid instead of going ashore with Yandry and Ysilla. "We only want to keep you safe," Lemore told him. "These are unsettled times."
Haldon Halfmaester explained. "On the way down from the Sorrows to Selhorys, we thrice glimpsed riders moving south along the river's eastern shore. Dothraki. Once they were so close we could hear the bells tinkling in their braids, and sometimes at night their fires could be seen beyond the eastern hills. We passed warships as well, Volantene river galleys crammed with slave soldiers. The triarchs fear an attack upon Selhorys, plainly."
Tyrion understood that quick enough. Alone amongst the major river towns, Selhorys stood upon the eastern bank of the Rhoyne, making it much more vulnerable to the horselords than its sister towns across the river. Even so, it is a small prize. If I were khal, I would feint at Selhorys, let the Volantenes rush to defend it, then swing south and ride hard for Volantis itself.
"I know how to use a sword," Young Griff was insisting.

"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?
Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."
"I preferred her naked," said Tyrion.
Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."
The lad did not seem appeased. The perfect prince but still half a boy for all that, with little and less experience of the world and all its woes. "Prince Aegon," said Tyrion, "since we're both stuck aboard this boat, perhaps you will honor me with a game of cyvasse to while away the hours?"

Thats literally the first time Tyrion actually displays any interest in Lemore beyond her body, and lasts only a minute or so. After Tyrion notices her change of garb, it makes Tyrion think more about her. Haldon also notices the change and comments, so we know Tyrion's only just watching her closely for a moment, having just now realised she might have something of interest she's hiding, she makes the remark YG not being the only one with things to hide, then Tyrion's off distracting YG with Cyvasse. Its literally a minute or less and we never see Tyrion and Lemore together again.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

Nonsense. If her eye colour was somehow prominent, even a plotpoint, he needs to make someone notice. Introducing notable eyes a book later makes about as much sense as claiming that Lemore had been walking around with a duck on her head the whole time but no-one ever commented on it.

As a youthful beauty at court, at literally the greatest party in a generation for a whole continent, when she was all dolled up, in a Targaryen court (so purple eyes are very much a thing), Ashara Dayne had either laughing or haunting purple eyes. But the truth of purple eyes is that they mostly don't actually look purple. Even less so when you are deliberately not trying to bring the colour out. And the truth of people is that dolled up girls having fun at a huge party have far more noticeable eyes (and really, what else are you going to say about a pretty young noblewoman - that she has the most exquisite chiseled nose?) than even an attractive middle aged woman who is un-dolled up. 

This whole "Ashara's eyes are soooo amazing its impossible that 20 years later when she's trying to hide her identity they don't immediately attract notice" idea is entirely unreasonable.
 

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You're welcome. I guess it's not necessary to go over that again, as I agree that that would have been the right time. I only believe that if then the eye colour could have been dropped as perhaps unimportant, this instance of watching her closely is when it should have been brought up if it was in any way unusual or significant.

It was only for a moment. It is likely her eyes didn't actually look purple at that time. Nor is it likely he studied her physically, looked deeper into her eyes than before or anything. Its just a phrase that shows that he actually thought about her for a change, instead of metaphorically drooling.

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Posted (edited)

GRRM is certainly free to tell his story how he wishes to, but I will be highly disappointed if it turns out that Lemore has Ashara's purple eyes and he had Tyrion's POV fail to observe this. No matter the reason, I would find that to be the most extremely poor case of writing in the series, and not wanting people to jump to the conclusion that it was Ashara would be the worst possible reason for him to have withheld that information from Tyrion's POV.

Contrary to any claim that tries to paint Tyrion has not being particularly observant or interested in Lemore's features, his POV describes her as a handsome septa who pushes a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes the very first time he lays eyes on her. Not her body or breasts, but her hair and eyes.

Duck was hallooing back by then. The mare splashed through the shallows, trampling down the reeds. The boy leapt down off the cabin roof to the poleboat's deck, and the rest of the Shy Maid's crew made their appearance. An older couple with a Rhoynish cast to their features stood close beside the tiller, whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

- ADWD: Tyrion III

One can argue that his POV doesn't immediately make note of AeGriff's eyes either, instead making note of his blue hair, but his POV does go on to describe them in his next chapter, contrasting them with Connington's blue eyes, and noting how they look black in this light and purple in that light.

And unlike AeGriff, who is intentionally dying his hair blue to hide their true color, Tyrion's POV's very first description of Lemore tells us that she is going around with dark brown hair, which would do no more to hide purple eyes than Ashara's dark hair hid her eyes, described as "haunting violet" (AGOT: Catelyn II), "laughing purple" (ASOS: Bran II), and "haunting purple" (ADWD: The Kingbreaker), the latter coming from a man who guarded purple eyed Targaryens every day of his life for twenty years.

I don't buy that they would in any way be so diminished that Tyrion would fail to notice or make note of them, nor do I buy the idea that GRRM would have his POV fail to notice anything about them just to keep people from thinking it was Ashara, which, by the way, didn't stop some readers from assuming it is Ashara.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

A twin sister? Nothing, Jon Snow knows ...

 

But.. "I knew" you would have loved that...  :p

 

In all seriusness, however, I believe there are pretty good chances (50%) that young Griff is a blackfire.

But, the other 50% for me is young Griff as Ashara and Brandon son. And therefore Ashara=Lemor

I enjoy the idea of Howland Reed and Ashara, but it still has a lot of problems imo.

And I do not believe it could explain the ToJ events.  Like I said somewhere else, the war was over by time. 

There were 0 reasons for Arthur to fight, unless he was still willingly to defende "his" king. A Targ king, bastard or not. That is why  -I believe - in Ned's dream (not matter how accurate it is) the focus is on the KG's men... vows.

And somehow, I really love the idea that Ashara in this story is more a villain than a heroine.

A Lysa's Arryn type. And that Ned doesn't speak about her, not because he loved her, but for some kind of resentment.... And that the Daynes are grateful to Ned, because he could have chose to punish her with something worst than exile.

 

Edited by lalt

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