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Is Dorne an imperialist critique?


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The Rhoynar who were displaced by the Valyrian conquerors are established as the only "brown" people in Westeros. While they did have to fight to settle in Dorne, they seem to have an immigrant story akin to the Jews and other refugees. They intermarry and adapt to Westerosi customs eventually. I'm glad that the author gave the Dornish their dignity and had them resist when the dragonlords came knocking. Dragons as a form of power is shown to be limited with their story. Targaryens consistently lost in the field and Dorne wins by making them water down their "special" blood and lessening the dragon bond. Is Dorne vs. Targaryens a critique of white imperialism? How do you think F&B part 2 will play into this? Winds?

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I'm not sure what you mean by "brown" people. I assumed Rhoyniars were most akin to Levantine people. Personaly Dorne story under the dragons reminds me of the resistance of the last Moorish kingdom in Spain (Granada), against the overwhelming Christian kingdoms. UNlike Granada, Dorne survived.

Dorns is a reflection of the typical quagmire, or quicksand, were imperialist powers sunk themselves to the neck, when they fight a war were their firepower can't find a decisive target. Same happened with Napoleon in Spain and with USA in Vietnam.

I hope F&B v2 gives more detail about the conquest.

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There are also the "stony," "sandy" and "salty" categories, which to me slightly echo the "caucasoid/negroid/mongoloid" view of the world proposed by 18th century racists. Despite Daeron coming up with this and Tyrion believing this, it is decidedly not true as Gwyneth has dark hair despite being "stony", Teora Toland is ginger and freckled despite her house being "salty", etc.

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I do not think the Dornish as a whole are exactly a Jewish allegory, aside from perhaps the Orphans (a different religion in the Mother Rhoyne, the position of Garin perhaps mirroring court Jews in some European courts), although they also seem like the Roma in some ways, too.

I think the Moorish analogy works well here. The Umayyads came to Spain after they were kicked out of being the Caliphs in Arabia; similarly Nymeria was a Rhoynish princess expelled from Ny Sar and who conquered Dorne. 

I don't think that Dornish heritage especially "tainted" House Targaryen, though. Before Mariah Martell they'd already intermarried with the Arryns (a half-Targaryen Arryn, but an Arryn no less) and they went on to marry Dondarrions, Penroses, other Arryns, Daynes, and Blackwoods.

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7 hours ago, Vaith said:

I do not think the Dornish as a whole are exactly a Jewish allegory, aside from perhaps the Orphans (a different religion in the Mother Rhoyne, the position of Garin perhaps mirroring court Jews in some European courts), although they also seem like the Roma in some ways, too.

I think the Moorish analogy works well here. The Umayyads came to Spain after they were kicked out of being the Caliphs in Arabia; similarly Nymeria was a Rhoynish princess expelled from Ny Sar and who conquered Dorne. 

I don't think that Dornish heritage especially "tainted" House Targaryen, though. Before Mariah Martell they'd already intermarried with the Arryns (a half-Targaryen Arryn, but an Arryn no less) and they went on to marry Dondarrions, Penroses, other Arryns, Daynes, and Blackwoods.

Thats an interesting historical comparison. Yes, the Orphans seem to fit the Jews. The wiki says the Rhoynar have "smooth olive skin, black hair, and dark eyes," so Moorish would work. I think any non-Targaryen blood is "tainted," in the mind of a monarchy built on incest.

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In medieval Europe Jews were separated from the rest of society, persecuted, banished, there were pogroms from time to time, so no, I do not think they fit. Spain and Moors fit better (plus Celtibers, Germanic tribes) but still thats not it. Correct me if I am wrong, but Moors were beaten and forced to change confession unlike Rhoynar in Dorne. I mean I cannot recall such tolerant approach in the real world's history. I sympathize with Dorne for the approach, their liberal customs and high position of women in their society, but I do not think there is any "imperialist critique". It is told many times - one king is peace and Dornishmen used to maraud borderlands whenever they got chance. They also seem to excel in cruelty and barbarism but this may be just chroniclers' bias.

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think any non-Targaryen blood is "tainted," in the mind of a monarchy built on incest.

In that case, Alyssa Velaryon was "tainted" as her mother was an Andal Stormlander (Massey), so it was already tainted, and the same with Aemma Arryn, whose father was an Andal Valeman. And with Jocelyn Baratheon -- even if her mother was a Targaryen and she wasn't too far removed from the allegedly Valyrian Orys, she still had the blood of Argella Durrandon.

I don't think the Targaryens were ever 100% on the whole blood purity thing, but it was a very ingrained tradition, I suppose.

But if people are thinking there is some "racial" purity for the Targaryens, I'm not sure. When it comes to Old Valyria you wonder if they would have ever really viewed Rhoynish, Ghiscari or Summer Islander blood as more "tainting" than that of the backwards Westerosi that had a light skin colour, similar to how the Romans would look down on an Irish barbarian just as much as a Yemeni one. 

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15 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

Dorns is a reflection of the typical quagmire, or quicksand, were imperialist powers sunk themselves to the neck, when they fight a war were their firepower can't find a decisive target. Same happened with Napoleon in Spain and with USA in Vietnam.

This is sort of what I'm getting at. If the author thought that House T was "the best" for Westeros why did he show this. It must be a critique of empire overreach and hubris of some sort. That dragons are shown to be ineffective means their power is checked. By showing Dorne specifically to be the one to resist, he chose a region with people who had encountered dragons before on the other continent in the past. Garin's curse and Dornish defiance are both repeating the same message, that this kind of power is brittle.

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4 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Durrandon.

I don't think the Targaryens were ever 100% on the whole blood purity thing, but it was a very ingrained tradition, I suppose.

It does kind of reflect the hypocrisy whites had about their own racial purity though, that they were pure white all the way back to some Nordish ideal, when in reality their great-great grandmother was a person of color.

The more important thing was how they perceived themselves as above mere mortals, which is written to be racially coded, and the doctrine of exceptionalism gave them "permission" to carry on with blood purity if they wanted. Whites wrote these kinds of special rules for themselves in the legal code all the time. 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It does kind of reflect the hypocrisy whites had about their own racial purity though, that they were pure white all the way back to some Nordish ideal, when in reality their great-great grandmother was a person of color.

The more important thing was how they perceived themselves as above mere mortals, which is written to be racially coded, and the doctrine of exceptionalism gave them "permission" to carry on with blood purity if they wanted. Whites wrote these kinds of special rules for themselves in the legal code all the time. 

Well, the series as a whole is based more on the Middle Ages, which did not really have these conceptions of race before the Transatlantic Slave Trade and European settlers in the Americas. It was more to do on whether you belonged to a particular religion or not, and for many commoners, all foreigners are going to be almost as strange as each other to an extent.

With regards to Valyrians, I always thought of them more based on Rome, and Greece/Egypt in other respects -- particularly the incest, a tradition that the ancient Egyptians practised and was also adopted by the Ptolemaic dynasty under Rome, who viewed themselves as gods. Of course, historical allegories are not entirely removed from the fact that Martin writes the books in the 20th and 21st century. Incest as a motif seems to be that a house is very insular, obsessed with its own power -- let's take Jaime and Cersei, for example. Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar, but you can say that in a way she wanted to become the new Targaryens and thus consummates her relationship with her brother, conceiving three children -- Jaime thinks of the Targaryens as a justification, at times, too.

There is definitely some prejudice about skin colour, for sure, when Aerys refuses to hold Rhaenys because she "smells Dornish", but I think this is something the Targaryens would have come to believe after hundreds of years being raised in King's Landing speaking the Common tongue in an Andalic way. Initially, Maegor marrying a Hightower or Aenys marrying a half-Massey might have been as "tainting". 

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8 minutes ago, Vaith said:

There is definitely some prejudice about skin colour, for sure, when Aerys refuses to hold Rhaenys because she "smells Dornish", but I think this is something the Targaryens would have come to believe after hundreds of years being raised in King's Landing speaking the Common tongue in an Andalic way. Initially, Maegor marrying a Hightower or Aenys marrying a half-Massey might have been as "tainting". 

Yeah I agree.

Targaryens whose incest is based on Egyptian pharaos are light-skinned, light-haired and light-eyed, and the original Ptolemies were Greeks who likely looked very different than the Egyptian people they ruled over. He puts Dany in a pyramid, and she notes how different they look from her. You can see also this when Dany thinks Brown Benn is a "mongrel." She also likes Gerris' blonde hair, whereas Quentyn, who is brown, is unattractive. Her views on "wiry, oily" Ghiscari hair also reflects some kind of racial coding. And I keep using that phrase because I dont mean Targaryens=white supremacists as a 1 to 1 historical reference, but that the text will use positive or negative symbols that reflect racial ideas in our world, i.e. coded as "racial". Unsure if its conscious or subconscious on the author's part. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah I agree.

Targaryens whose incest is based on Egyptian pharaos are light-skinned, light-haired and light-eyed, and the original Ptolemies were Greeks who likely looked very different than the Egyptian people they ruled over. He puts Dany in a pyramid, and she notes how different they look from her. You can see also this when Dany thinks Brown Benn is a "mongrel." She also likes Gerris' blonde hair, whereas Quentyn, who is brown, is unattractive. Her views on "wiry, oily" Ghiscari hair also reflects some kind of racial coding. And I keep using that phrase because I dont mean Targaryens=white supremacists as a 1 to 1 historical reference, but that the text will use positive or negative symbols that reflect racial ideas in our world, i.e. coded as "racial". Unsure if its conscious or subconscious on the author's part. 

 

Dany definitely has her biases from being told she is "different" by Viserys, that she can stand intense heat and does not get the same sicknesses (supposedly), but I think she'd have had more exposure to different cultures than post-Doom Targaryens. She's likely to have been exposed to more traders or slaves from Yi Ti, the Summer Isles, the Dothraki or Slaver's Bay than the Targaryens in King's Landing or on Dragonstone.

I don't think the Drinkwater thing is indicative of anything. Gerris is just supposed to be an attractive man in comparison to "Prince Mud/the frog prince," who is rather plain. She had Stockholm Syndrome, at least, for Drogo, and could get herself off with Irri, so I don't think there's much there. The Ghiscari thing is... maybe their hair is different to hers, and she recognises that? They seem a mishmash of Phoenicians, Mesopotamians, and Egyptians themselves in many ways, maybe with a dash of Iranian too for ancient Persia (being a rival to Valyria's Rome/Greece and all that). 

I don't think Martin is consciously malicious in any degree, but the text is not really 100% perfect on a racial front. I don't think we need to hear Sarella be called a monkey, or have our innocent characters, AGOT Sansa and Gilly, be particularly frightened by black people more than any other group of peoples. 

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1 hour ago, Vaith said:

I don't think the Drinkwater thing is indicative of anything. Gerris is just supposed to be an attractive man in comparison to "Prince Mud/the frog prince," who is rather plain. She had Stockholm Syndrome, at least, for Drogo, and could get herself off with Irri, so I don't think there's much there. The Ghiscari thing is... maybe their hair is different to hers, and she recognises that? They seem a mishmash of Phoenicians, Mesopotamians, and Egyptians themselves in many ways, maybe with a dash of Iranian too for ancient Persia (being a rival to Valyria's Rome/Greece and all that). 

I don't think it's a bias on the author's part, I'm giving him the benefit of making a critique of imperialism/racial exceptionalism through the Targaryens. I think that he is critical of aspects of Targaryen ideology and basis for their rule, but he is very subtle about it. 

What do you mean "could get herself off with Irri?" It's controversial what Dany does. She holds all the power in the relationship with Irri and some could argue that it’s problematic for her to use a former sex slave who’s been taught her whole life to please her khal/khaleesi, as a human vibrator, ‘summoning’ her to her bed chamber to get her off. 

Dany also says that the bloodrider guy (can't remember his name) belongs to her when J'Hiqui and Irri are arguing over which one of them he'd want. Dany also slaps her handmaiden who is one of the Lamb Men she "saved." Her views on the Lamb Men reflect a benevolent master role. She starts to take on the superior attitude of the Dothraki toward the people they conquer: “Once Dany might have taken them for Dothraki, for they had the same copper skin and almond-shaped eyes. Now they looked alien to her, squat and flat-faced, their black hair cropped unnaturally short.”

But then her own beliefs about her superiority over the Dothraki are reflected in how she believes that being a wife of a khal is not enough, that the blood of dragons have a better life waiting for them in Westeros. Her lack of concern toward the Dothraki's superstitions about the poisoned water suggests she doesn't respect their own beliefs. If she's pushing them to break their belief system to conquer Westeros, I think the author is challenging readers to identify these exceptionalist ideas, and be critical of them.

I think the Drinkwater thing is ambiguous, may mean more on re-read once (if) the story is finished.

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1 hour ago, Vaith said:

"Prince Mud/the frog prince," who is rather plain

Just want to add, I find the mud thing interesting. It could be symbolic of being grounded, down to earth, and this is why Barristan views mud positively. Mud is also associated with life. Arya is thankful of the mud because it protects her from fire.

The "people above" and "people below" in a hierarchy could be reflected in "dragon flight" vs. "dirt/mud." The Doctrine of Exceptionalism implies that the people who can fly are inherently better than the sad, pitiful earth-bound people who have to walk around in the mud. Mud/frogs are also associated with the crannogmen, some of the most stigmatized, poorest, and and looked-down on people in Westeros. I know they're making a sacrifice to help Bran, but he also doesn't show much sign of a superiority complex toward them.

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