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maiden of tarth

What does Stannis’ chapter reveal about the Pink Letter

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Does Stannis’ chapter help indentify who the author of the Pink Letter actually is?  In the PL, doesn’t the author claim that Stannis is defeated? Does Stannis still have his magic sword in his WOW chapter? If I remember correctly, he hasn’t engaged Ramsey in combat. What does that tell us about the PL? 

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2 hours ago, maiden of tarth said:

Does Stannis’ chapter help indentify who the author of the Pink Letter actually is?  In the PL, doesn’t the author claim that Stannis is defeated? Does Stannis still have his magic sword in his WOW chapter? If I remember correctly, he hasn’t engaged Ramsey in combat. What does that tell us about the PL? 

That’s a Theon chapter, not Stannis. And the timeline of events is funky. Events in the Theon chapter you are referring to happen before Jon receives the PL (ADwD Jon XIII). I think events in the chapter in question come before even one or two previous Jon chapters in Dance. 

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Thank you. It’s been so long since I read it. I got completely confused as to whom the chapter belonged to. 

Oh boo. I assumed that as it was a TWOW chapter, it was after the events in the previous books. That’s going to confuse me if the book is ever released. Are there any other chapters that are like that? 

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2 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

It tells us that the Theon sample chapter from TWoW comes before the Pink Letter chapter in ADwD. 

Oh where did you find that out? Is it made clear in the chapter as I would never have realised from the chapter alone. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, maiden of tarth said:

Oh where did you find that out? Is it made clear in the chapter as I would never have realised from the chapter alone. 

it is known that chronology is not linear in the books. plus the shining sword Stannis has (how does ramsay know that? spies maybe) and probably some other things. personally I am not so sure, but I would not argue.

Edited by broken one

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Posted (edited)

@maiden of tarth, here’s a timeline you might find interesting. There are others as well, some very good, as the one made by @Alexis-something-Rose, but I’m not sure it’s been published. 

 

ETA: ooops, forgot th link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/htmlview

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Posted (edited)

To answer the title of your thread literally:

Spoiler

 

The chapter tells us that Stannis had high quality intelligence from Theon and given his reputation as a battle field commander, was not getting taken out by some Freys and Ramsay's bastard boys now that he was forewarned. He tells Justin Massey that there may be rumours of his death, implying he may use that as a ruse. It also tells us that Roose's plan of getting the Karstarks to betray Stannis had been foiled, so Stannis was in the strongest position he could be since he was snowed in, with additional motivation from being able to tell the clansmen he had saved the Ned's girl and secured Theon Turncloak. (Also he now has IB support for future campaigns, but that is not so important now)

With all this information we can conclude with a high degree of confidence that the claim in the PL about Stannis being dead is either completely false, or almost all of Bolton's strength was unleashed on the CF in successive waves (hence 7 days of battle), which likely has then resulted in huge losses to all or most Northern houses - there would now be few men of fighting age left alive and plenty of would-be wights scattered in the snow!

Does it narrow down the list of potential authors though? I think every camp sticks to their view regardless of this chapter.

 

 

Edited by Ser Hedge

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25 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Does it narrow down the list of potential authors though? I think every camp sticks to their view regardless of this chapter.

 

Nice summation! Totally agree on the bold. 

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I'm not in any camp on the PL (which means I tend towards Occam's Razor), but I agree the Theon chapter doesn't really provide much evidence for any of those camps.  The only relevant aspect of that chapter is it probably increases the likelihood Ramsay was lying when he sent it, if he was the one who sent it.  Which is, uh, not surprising.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

The only relevant aspect of that chapter is it probably increases the likelihood Ramsay was lying

Not necessarily. For instance, Ramsay may think he is saying the truth, but he’s been taken for a ride. :eek:

 

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16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily. For instance, Ramsay may think he is saying the truth, but he’s been taken for a ride. :eek:

 

Well..

Spoiler

My point is the chapter gives us more information that Stannis is more likely to win at least the first engagement in the battle for Winterfell.  It doesn't give us any more information on what Ramsay is lying about, which is almost certainly quite a bit.

 

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9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well..

  Hide contents

My point is the chapter gives us more information that Stannis is more likely to win at least the first engagement in the battle for Winterfell.  It doesn't give us any more information on what Ramsay is lying about, which is almost certainly quite a bit.

 

Yup, I got that. And I agree. I was just adding one more option the the letter’s claim hat Stannis has been defeated etc. :)

 

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@kissdbyfire, it's not published.

And with regard to the topic, I think it's the vocabulary used in the chapter that's interesting. 

I don't have the text in front of me, but if memory serves, Theon tells Stannis that Ramsay will want his Reek back. He'll want his bride back, which is wording we also find in the letter Jon receives.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't have the text in front of me, but if memory serves, Theon tells Stannis that Ramsay will want his Reek back. He'll want his bride back, which is wording we also find in the letter Jon receives.

Without a doubt this is a BIG clue.

A major theme of the TWOW Theon chapter is name identity & name confusion.

The biggest one is Arya & Jeyne.

The second one is Reek & Theon.

The chapter does the "name confusion" theme like 4-5 more times.

The passage in question goes like this:

Quote

"The north remembers. The Red Wedding, Lady Hornwood's fingers, the sack of Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square, they remember all of it." Bran and Rickon. They were only miller's boys. "Frey and Manderly will never combine their strengths. They will come for you, but separately. Lord Ramsay will not be far behind them. He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek." Theon's laugh was half a titter, half a whimper. "Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear."

Theon TWOW

We as readers are exposed to Reek = Theon for many chapters. BUT STANNIS HASN'T. If fact, Stannis is probably thinking Ramsey nicknamed Arya (the bride) "Reek." The Bride = Reek
"Theon's laugh was half a titter, half a whimper." = GRRM laughing at us for falling for this trap

Stannis has never acknowledged Theon as "Reek". If you don't believe me, re-read the chapter.

The TWOW Chapter even ends with this:

Quote

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon."
Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought.

Theon TWOW

 

 

Now the juicy parts in ADWD ... does this confusion carry over to the Pink Letter? Can "the Bride" = "Reek" in the Pink Letter? If you guys re-read it with this formula, it still makes sense!

I am not saying Stannis wrote the Pink Letter. He doesn't know about Mance & the spearwives anyways. 

I think Stannis sent an update on his situation to Selyse and Mel at the Wall. Melisandre, using this CV information, the Bride = Reek formula, and Mance & spearwives (Mel already knew) ... falsify the Pink Letter to get to Jon to talk to her. But Jon went to talk to everyone else instead.

After re-reading ADWD Jon XIII, I am 95% sure Mel wrote it, and everything in the Pink Letter is false.

Quote

That was Rattleshirt, Jon almost said. That was sorcery. A glamor, she called it. "Melisandre … look to the skies, she said." He set the (Pink) letter down. "A raven in a storm. She saw this coming." WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWERS, SEND TO ME (Jon remembering Mel saying that)

Jon XIII ADWD

After Jon gets the letter, he should have immediately went to Mel. He didn't. He was assassinated before he had a chance for Mel to confess to the pink letter, or at least put more thoughts in Jon's head.

Quote

 

"I will send for ale," Jon said, distracted. Melisandre was gone, he realized, and so were the queen's knights. I should have gone to Selyse first. She has the right to know her lord is dead. "You must excuse me. I'll leave you to get them drunk."

"Har! A task I'm well suited for, crow. On your way!"

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.

Jon XIII ADWD

 

Also another reason why the Pink Letter is FALSE and that Mel wrote it ... SEVEN days of battle
Someone like Mel probably associates the number SEVEN as "FALSE"!
Mel got Jon killed unintentionally. But to be fair, Jon was also stupid. But Mel will bring him back.

Edited by The Map Guy

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7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@maiden of tarth, here’s a timeline you might find interesting. There are others as well, some very good, as the one made by @Alexis-something-Rose, but I’m not sure it’s been published. 

 

ETA: ooops, forgot th link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/htmlview

Thank you. That’s great

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I'm confused. Is this about the last Theon chapter in ADwD or is it about spoiler chapters in TWoW? If it is the latter shouldn't this discussion be taking place in the proper forums for it?

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4 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Now the juicy parts in ADWD...does this confusion carry over to the Pink Letter? Can "the Bride" = "Reek" in the Pink Letter? If you guys re-read it with this formula, it still makes sense!

The relevant passage goes: "I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. "

He's asking for both his bride and Reek, so any forger would have to be aware that they are two separate persons.

No, the biggest clue is probably this bit: "Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell." Ramsay wouldn't hang up anybody's heads, he'd hang up their skins.

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3 hours ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

Ramsay wouldn't hang up anybody's heads, he'd hang up their skins.

Hmmmm, would he?

I know the Boltons are known for flaying their enemies, and there are rumours of vaults in the Dreadfort with a vast collection, but have they ever put a skin on display (ugh, the very thought of it...)? 

Actually, hold on, now I'm thinking back to what they did with the Ironborn after taking MC. Did they put the flayed bodies up? Maybe you have a point - I was about to say putting a head on a spike is standard practice to show everyone exactly whom you have disposed of, but a flayed body with the skin left on the face would do that too, in addition to cowing your subjects and vassals with the sheer additional brutality of your house, in an already brutal world.

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