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maiden of tarth

What does Stannis’ chapter reveal about the Pink Letter

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

The relevant passage goes: "I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. "

He's asking for both his bride and Reek, so any forger would have to be aware that they are two separate persons.

Let's review. Re-posting the Pink Letter for 9999th time in this forum:

Quote

 

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back (Repetition #1). If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back (Repetition # 2). I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek (If Jon is reading Reek = Bride, this is Repetition # 3). Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

What Jon is thinking a few paragraphs later:

Quote

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

Jon XIII ADWD

Jon NEVER asked who REEK was. Isn't this an important detail? He doesn't know REEK = THEON. He probably assumed it was Arya the bride, like how Stannis assumed Reek = Bride in TWOW.

Urgh! ... this sounds like a movie plot, but I can't remember which movie. It was some movie where the characters mistaken a name because they heard the conversation wrong. It affected the plot greatly with this miscommunication. It worked better in the movie because the audience can't read the actual dialogue. It's what their ears heard, not what their eyes read. Damn it. I have terrible memory. Someone help me identify this movie? lol

Anyways ... for fun:
"REEK" = ARya "JEynE" StarK

 

6 hours ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

No, the biggest clue is probably this bit: "Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell." Ramsay wouldn't hang up anybody's heads, he'd hang up their skins.

Nice catch! And there are so many other clues in the letter suggesting that its not Ramsey's MO. Ramsey is like an artist, where are ALL his signature moves? 

Edited by The Map Guy

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8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I'm confused. Is this about the last Theon chapter in ADwD or is it about spoiler chapters in TWoW? If it is the latter shouldn't this discussion be taking place in the proper forums for it?

Theons The Winds of Winter chapter. This is TWOW forum. 

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26 minutes ago, maiden of tarth said:

Theons The Winds of Winter chapter. This is TWOW forum. 

Thank you for your patience, and the correction. You are a gentlewoman and a scholar with the patience of a saint.

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Just now, SFDanny said:

Thank you for your patience, and the correction. You are a gentlewoman and a scholar with the patience of a saint.

Always a pleasure, never a chore! 

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If you're looking for hints in the pink letter that might show who wrote it (or didn't), you won't find it within the letter itself. I've read it countless times, trying to find hope in it that Stannis is actually alive and well, but it's impossible to conclude that. The version in which Ramsay truly smashed Stannis and that the pink letter is genuine is still one with the highest probability of all others.

First of all, whether other characters know who Reek is - is completely inconsequential, and changes nothing. They all consider Ramsay a psychopath, and incomprehensible banter in a letter filled with threats is expected from such a monster. I doubt any of them would smash their heads to decipher every single word of the letter... they would much rather be interested in the facts he states.

My belief is that the Bastard of Bolton truly did write the letter, however that he lied about beating Stannis... he probably did catch Mance and his spearwives, and wrote to Jon in a desperate attempt to improve his situation... if he did beat him, he'd already have Theon and Jeyne back to him, now wouldn't he? The letter goes into detail describing the Mance situation, and mentions nothing regarding the Stannis situation, which I see as another proof.

Secondly, whether he hang the skins or heads is one of the same things. He did mention he made a blanket out of his spearwives, so there's that.

On another note, it take a hellish not to get the Game of Thrones spoil everything in the last season... 

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On 3/23/2019 at 2:30 AM, Kyll.Ing. said:

No, the biggest clue is probably this bit: "Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell." Ramsay wouldn't hang up anybody's heads, he'd hang up their skins.

That's not necessarily true.  Heads are identifiable; skins pretty much all look alike.  If Ramsay has killed Stannis and his allies and/or captains, or thinks he has, he would display their heads so that it was known that they were really dead.  Presumably, Jon would be able to recognize them; hence the invitation.  Whether any such heads are displayed, or are who Ramsay thinks they are is obviously unknown.  But I think it is perfectly reasonable to display enemies' heads, even for the Boltons.

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Posted (edited)

I think Stannis got advantage, but ultimately lost. He should be killed in battle. 

 

As for Reek, Jeyne & Asha, its obviously they made a run with banker previous to battle to either a CB or Braavos. 

Edited by Lady Winter Rose

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Most readers tend to be sure that Ramsay is lying. But what if the Pink letter is true? I don't think that is very outlandish. I think GRRM tries to fool us here, by actually telling us the truth. 

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Quote

 

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

YHITYTWCYYKBWIWIIMRITIWIIIIIAIRSIKIRBTLW

IIIIIIIIIIIIII WWWWW YYYY TTTT RRR A BB KK H C M S L

BLACKSMITH

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Posted (edited)

I posted a thread but I think it was rejected. It was to do with George's comments and a certain scene in the show that we can theorise more about the Pink Letter. Big spoiler for TWOW below. 

 

Spoiler

Short version a poster on George's blog was annoyed at him for the show spoiling the Shireen scene and he said he wouldn't comment on a chapter he hadn't even wrote yet. We know he finished writing the Battle of Ice back in 2005ish so he either hasn't wrote much TWOW material or Stannis survives long into the story to end up in a situation where he sacrifices his daughter. Or the alternative it isn't even Stannis and just Mel. 

 

Edited by aFeastForDragons

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Posted (edited)

I don't think Stannis ever planned such fate for Shirren. Selyse or Mel, I really, really believe they are capable of such act.

Edited by Lady Winter Rose

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I'm telling you guys: Littlefinger wrote the Pink Letter but he made some pretty obvious mistakes (which is unsurprising given how far removed he is from the situation) and is overplaying his hand (i.e. praying on and working towards Stannis' defeat without being certain of it).

Satin is a spy...working for Littlefinger. The assassination on Jon might have something to do with Cersei Lannister and/or Littlefinger.

I mean, seriously. It's Littlefinger's MO. 

1 hour ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

I don't think Stannis ever planned such fate for Shirren. Selyse or Mel, I really, really believe they are capable of such act.

Melisandre? Meh, not so much....

But Selyse? Or worse, one of her overzealous soldiers? Absolutely.

 

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23 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm telling you guys: Littlefinger wrote the Pink Letter but he made some pretty obvious mistakes (which is unsurprising given how far removed he is from the situation) and is overplaying his hand (i.e. praying on and working towards Stannis' defeat without being certain of it).

Satin is a spy...working for Littlefinger. The assassination on Jon might have something to do with Cersei Lannister and/or Littlefinger.

I mean, seriously. It's Littlefinger's MO. 

Melisandre? Meh, not so much....

But Selyse? Or worse, one of her overzealous soldiers? Absolutely.

 

I'm confused.  Why is Llittlefinger writing it and how is he getting the required information?  Neither the telegraph or the radio has been invented yet.  Plus, Littlefinger has shown no interest in the Nights Watch, and has no reason to do so.  In fact, absent Sansa he has no reason to care about the North at all., and even with her, it's only a surface concern.  

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5 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm confused.  Why is Llittlefinger writing it and how is he getting the required information?  Neither the telegraph or the radio has been invented yet.  Plus, Littlefinger has shown no interest in the Nights Watch, and has no reason to do so.  In fact, absent Sansa he has no reason to care about the North at all., and even with her, it's only a surface concern.  

Littlefinger doesn't have to have an interest in the Night's Watch. He does, however, have an interest in Stannis and Jon Snow.

How is he getting the required information? Spies. I told you, I think Satin is a spy. Satin is the type of boy to be employed in Littlefinger's brothels.

If Littlefinger wants the Iron Throne, the North is going to be a concern of his.

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On 3/23/2019 at 9:30 AM, Kyll.Ing. said:

The relevant passage goes: "I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. "

He's asking for both his bride and Reek, so any forger would have to be aware that they are two separate persons.

No, the biggest clue is probably this bit: "Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell." Ramsay wouldn't hang up anybody's heads, he'd hang up their skins.

Another clue is the letter referring to the "wildling princess" and the "little prince". Ramsay, being Northerner, ought to be aware that wildlings do not have princesses. But Stannis would not know it, and in fact he is the one who consistently insisted on referring to them as "princess" and "prince".

So I think Stannis might have written the letter, or one of his retinue.

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Ramsey might have heard about the "wildling princess", and then used the same term himself. But the thought has crossed my mind, too. About the heads... Guess you could flay a human being and still cut off the head. Not that I have any experience in this matter, but I guess it can be done:wacko:.

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Posted (edited)

Between what Theon tells Asha & Stannis and what Stannis already knows and what he tells to Justin Massey and the fact that Stannis have a maester from Dreadford in the camp for at least the pink wax :P makes me 93% certain Stannis wrote it or it was a Stannis-camp team effort.

Edited by Quillon

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On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 10:56 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Littlefinger doesn't have to have an interest in the Night's Watch. He does, however, have an interest in Stannis and Jon Snow.

How is he getting the required information? Spies. I told you, I think Satin is a spy. Satin is the type of boy to be employed in Littlefinger's brothels.

If Littlefinger wants the Iron Throne, the North is going to be a concern of his.

You are correct in that I know I have a tendency to forget a key part of the whole North plot - Littlefinger provided Jeyne Poole.

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 11:48 AM, Aldarion said:

Another clue is the letter referring to the "wildling princess" and the "little prince".

Good point here. Mance would never have used the terminology, if captured, which would be presumably how Ramsey would find out about it.

I am of the impressions that Ramsey did not write the letter, but I don't know who did.

A new interest that I just garnered from reading this thread is chronology.  I had assumed that the WOW chapter occurred after Dance, but as mentioned, the first few chapters of Storm occurred at the same time as the events of the Battle of the Blackwater.

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On 5/27/2019 at 5:26 AM, Quillon said:

Between what Theon tells Asha & Stannis and what Stannis already knows and what he tells to Justin Massey and the fact that Stannis have a maester from Dreadford in the camp for at least the pink wax :P makes me 93% certain Stannis wrote it or it was a Stannis-camp team effort.

This is also possible.

9 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

You are correct in that I know I have a tendency to forget a key part of the whole North plot - Littlefinger provided Jeyne Poole.

Good point here. Mance would never have used the terminology, if captured, which would be presumably how Ramsey would find out about it.

I am of the impressions that Ramsey did not write the letter, but I don't know who did.

A new interest that I just garnered from reading this thread is chronology.  I had assumed that the WOW chapter occurred after Dance, but as mentioned, the first few chapters of Storm occurred at the same time as the events of the Battle of the Blackwater.

Thank you for saying that.

There's also a chance that Varys sent the Pink Letter. He likely would know more about what's happening in the North and at the Wall than the entire Small Council.

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31 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

There's also a chance that Varys sent the Pink Letter. He likely would know more about what's happening in the North and at the Wall than the entire Small Council.

Varys whereabouts are fairly suspect throughout this whole thing.  Really, the last time we see him (or realize we see him, as the case may be) is the epilogue of Dance. So he is in Westeros at least at that point. 

I thought at one time he went to Pentos, too, but he was noticeably absent during the Illyrio chapters, where he would be a natural fit given their partnership.  Based on descriptions, I don't think he was on the Shy Maid, either, where he would fit (in that he is involved in the plot). I don't see a sign of him in Slaver's Bay, either. 

So where does that leave us? He is either elsewhere in Westeros or perhaps Braavos. I would like to reread Arya's chapters.  This may be pure personal interest, but I would like to see how Varys interacts in Braavos.  It seems like a place where he could pick up on a variety of things - after all, Arya, Samwell, Gilly, and Daeron all passed through there.  Again, I don't know of any textual references to put Varys here, just personal thoughts.

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