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Rose of Red Lake

conquering, kneeling, marriage

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Posted (edited)

Conquering, kneeling, or marriage: I feel like this is the ASOIAF game of rock, paper, scissors.

To illustrate, in the World of Ice and Fire, when comparing Dorne and the North, this stood out to me:

Quote

Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage.”

I believe the author wants to keep Dorne/North similarities all the way to the very end, especially this ^ one.

I'll just make some predictions based on these three options, holding conquering constant.

Dany can't win Dorne/the North with conquering, the people will resist. Her other two options are marriage or kneeling. The ruler who kneels also has to be respected enough by their people for them to follow suit. Dany won't be able to conquer Dorne by roasting Arianne. Dany has limited marriage choices in Dorne (Trystane?), and Quentyn is a huge liability. Would Doran kneel to a woman with the dragons that killed his son? If he dies and Arianne is the heir, how would she respond? In the North, if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and does not claim Winterfell for himself, Dany has no one to marry to claim the North except for Bran. Sansa, Bran, Rickon, Arya (nearest eligible Stark) could kneel, but their power to control their lords may be tenuous. They'll probably want to rule themselves again (if Lyanna is any indication). The wildlings will never kneel. What am I missing? How do you see this playing out?

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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38 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany has limited marriage choices in Dorne (Trystane?), and Quentyn is a huge liability. Would Doran kneel to a woman with the dragons that killed his son?

Doran is like Tywin Lannister. He just looks friendlier and has waited with his revenge till now. I could see him declaring Myrcella a bastard and wed Trystane to Dany. But the Dornish lords and people wouldnt agree with it if they find out how Dany treated Quentyn (Will they ever find out?). They are in the Feast and Dance on the brink of rebellion because the camt see Dorans intriguing and would probably take Trys and Danys wedding as an insult.

49 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If he dies and Arianne is the heir, how would she respond?

Depends on how much she trusts Aegon and how much Dany trusts Aegon.

IMO Arianne will dislike Dany. Her negative attitude towards Aerys II (Elia would be alive if she wasnt kept as a hostage in KL) and Dornish pride combinded with the fact that Dany will be viewed by most Westerosi as foreign invader and the Quentyn affair will be hers or Danys downfall.

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17 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Conquering, kneeling, or marriage: I feel like this is the ASOIAF game of rock, paper, scissors.

To illustrate, in the World of Ice and Fire, when comparing Dorne and the North, this stood out to me:

I believe the author wants to keep Dorne/North similarities all the way to the very end, especially this ^ one.

I'll just make some predictions based on these three options, holding conquering constant.

Dany can't win Dorne/the North with conquering, the people will resist. Her other two options are marriage or kneeling. The ruler who kneels also has to be respected enough by their people for them to follow suit. Dany won't be able to conquer Dorne by roasting Arianne. Dany has limited marriage choices in Dorne (Trystane?), and Quentyn is a huge liability. Would Doran kneel to a woman with the dragons that killed his son? If he dies and Arianne is the heir, how would she respond? In the North, if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and does not claim Winterfell for himself, Dany has no one to marry to claim the North except for Bran. Sansa, Bran, Rickon, Arya (nearest eligible Stark) could kneel, but their power to control their lords may be tenuous. They'll probably want to rule themselves again (if Lyanna is any indication). The wildlings will never kneel. What am I missing? How do you see this playing out?

The North is wasteland overrun with wildlings.  I say that wasteland is not worth it.  Let the barbarians have the north.  Dorne is a desert.  I'm not too sure that the Crown gets enough revenues from those two regions.  I am mildly interested in Dorne.  I am not interested in the north.  Work out a peace treaty with the Others and let them have the north.  

Rose of Red Lake, this post of yours is really your own fiction though.  Because those hungry northmen are going to bend the knee.  Their peasants and common people will desert them for the south.  So those Starks will have to learn how to farm or die.  Oh wait, crops don't grow without sunlight.  Those northern dicks wishing for independence is doing so more out of foolishness than practicality.  

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3 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The North is wasteland overrun with wildlings.  I say that wasteland is not worth it.  Let the barbarians have the north.  Dorne is a desert.  I'm not too sure that the Crown gets enough revenues from those two regions.  I am mildly interested in Dorne.  I am not interested in the north.  Work out a peace treaty with the Others and let them have the north.  

Rose of Red Lake, this post of yours is really your own fiction though.  Because those hungry northmen are going to bend the knee.  Their peasants and common people will desert them for the south.  So those Starks will have to learn how to farm or die.  Oh wait, crops don't grow without sunlight.  Those northern dicks wishing for independence is doing so more out of foolishness than practicality.

In its ideal form the Night's Watch was set up to make a sacrifice for the rest of the kingdoms to protect them from the Others. If the North asks for their independence in exchange, seems like a fair trade. Give them food via trade. Let them keep their independence as long as they defend the South from Northern threats.

I'm noting that it's a common sentiment among fans that Northerners are prideful assholes, just like the Dornish who had the gall to resist a conqueror. Meanwhile, the conqueror's own pride and expectations are rarely examined or scrutinized. I had no idea that so many people were pro-conquest and pro-imperialism. 

Dorne/the North are poor but should poor countries' sovereignty be taken away by rich countries, just because they're poor? Does GRRM believe that colonialism and conquest of poorer nations is the best way to rule? Kneeling may be a "reality" but it also wouldn't make the Targaryens look like the heroic underdogs.

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Posted (edited)

Never mind.

Edited by kissdbyfire

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5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The North is wasteland overrun with wildlings.  I say that wasteland is not worth it.  Let the barbarians have the north.

The North is a wasteland NOW but with some help the get on their feed and then they going to deliever something worthy like food or gold: Loyal soldiers who are not afraid if death. The northman were willing to go South and it was stated in FaB that they dont excpected to come back home. The unsullied will not last forever and I dont think that they will train successors (they would at least not be as strong as the original ones) and there will be always unhappy houses relatieves etc who feel left out.

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Work out a peace treaty with the Others and let them have the north.

Im sure they are the diplomaty in person ...

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dorne is a desert.  I'm not too sure that the Crown gets enough revenues from those two regions.  I am mildly interested in Dorne.

Yes Dorne is (mostly) dessert. The cape of Africa was mostly dessert too. But Europe conquered them too. Why? Because they were geographic important dessert. 

The cape was one the way to India. Dorne is one the way to Essos. Yes of course they could use the roads to go over KL but Oldtowns economy would suffer anyways. 

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