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Spockydog

UK Politics: What Goes DUP Must Come Down

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2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You’re still talking about the KKK?

Look, these people used racist dog whistles during the Brexit campaign so they lose the benefit of the doubt now. Full stop. That’s all that needs to be said.

Now please, get back to figuring out your s*** because you have a legitimate chance of crashing out and tanking the global economy.

The fuck can any of us do about it? We are governed by maniacs.

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1 minute ago, Werthead said:

I particularly liked the pointing out that the ERG is the Conservative Party's own Militant Tendency (or Tea Party), a party-within-a-party wielding a lot of influence despite its small size and lack of support in the wider country.

Hum, is it just me, or does make the likening the ERG to the Tea Party the further definition of a party-within-a-party wielding a lot of influence despite its small size and lack of support in the wider country, a weeeeee bit redundant? Anyway, if the GOP is anything to go by, then the Americans are just a bit ahead of the curve, and the Tories are inevitably on their way to take the short bus to crazytown.

 

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35 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

The fuck can any of us do about it? We are governed by maniacs.

Get a lot better at political organizing for starters. Ya’ll need to be in the street.

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5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Get a lot better at political organizing for starters. Ya’ll need to be in the street.

I mean, didnyou just gloss over last weekend or? 

Also theres a saying about glass houses and stones thats applicable here

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7 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I mean, didnyou just gloss over last weekend or? 

Also theres a saying about glass houses and stones thats applicable here

One off marches and protests don’t accomplish much. They need to be sustained, especially when you consider how little time there is.

And trust me, we need them here too.

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34 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

One off marches and protests don’t accomplish much. They need to be sustained, especially when you consider how little time there is.

But we (the public) are as divided as Parliament!  The Remainers, Leavers, Second Referundummers, Custom Unionists, Hard Brexiters, Soft Brexiters, and Et Al. would all clash on the streets!

In other news: EU moves into crisis mode as it plans for no-deal Brexit

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1 hour ago, Mosi Mynn said:

But we (the public) are as divided as Parliament!  The Remainers, Leavers, Second Referundummers, Custom Unionists, Hard Brexiters, Soft Brexiters, and Et Al. would all clash on the streets!

In other news: EU moves into crisis mode as it plans for no-deal Brexit

Put that under no-deal preparations. Or make it a competition, the Brexit Dome. Tina Turner gets to announce which group survived and thus what Brexit outcome it is.

As for the other news. Nothing new/surprising really. EU considers no-deal as most plausible outcome, which has also been said here a few times. The EU no-deal handbook has been out for a while (some time at the end of last year).

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2 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

But we (the public) are as divided as Parliament!  The Remainers, Leavers, Second Referundummers, Custom Unionists, Hard Brexiters, Soft Brexiters, and Et Al. would all clash on the streets!

In other news: EU moves into crisis mode as it plans for no-deal Brexit

Those Custom Unionists are daft wankers.

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10 hours ago, Vaith said:

According to some there’s “less cultural identity because I read in the Mail that this town 200 miles away is making accomodations for kids who have Polish as their first language”

If I respond asking why some Spanish tourist destinations near enough forced all locals to learn English to keep the economy afloat — well, that’s not a real problem, because they’re just a holiday country in the end to them.

What's that got to do with being in the EU? Spain wants tourists from all over the world and the fact of the matter is English is the best 2nd language to learn because any given tourist is likely to know either a bit of Spanish or English. And it's not like Spain has ditched Spanish as its official language and is now becoming a suburb of England, and Morris dancing is now thew national dance.

 

10 hours ago, Gorn said:

Ironically, England has been quite successful in almost wiping out local cultural identities and languages in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall, so you might say they have some experience with the subject.

I think Irish, Scottish and Welsh people might have something to say about how strongly they identify with their respective subcultures in the British Isles. Which is to say that despite best efforts those cultures remain vibrant and distinct to English culture.

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1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

What's that got to do with being in the EU? Spain wants tourists from all over the world and the fact of the matter is English is the best 2nd language to learn because any given tourist is likely to know either a bit of Spanish or English. And it's not like Spain has ditched Spanish as its official language and is now becoming a suburb of England, and Morris dancing is now thew national dance.

It's got nothing to do with it? I didn't say it was linked to the EU, the tradition's been going on since they were an insular dictatorship in many ways. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of Brits who recoil any time they hear a foreign language being spoken in earshot while going on holiday to Benidorm and expecting not have to speak a word of Spanish -- it's not really anything outside of a beach location to them in many ways.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I think Irish, Scottish and Welsh people might have something to say about how strongly they identify with their respective subcultures in the British Isles. Which is to say that despite best efforts those cultures remain vibrant and distinct to English culture.

I'm very much an Anglo-Scottish European. Born in Glasgow, I have lived in London for forty years. I love England. But when the wars of independence come, I'll be up there with ma people, fighting the old Highland way, bare-chested with a woad-coated baby in each arm.

 

Edited by Spockydog

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1 minute ago, Vaith said:

It's got nothing to do with it? I didn't say it was linked to the EU, the tradition's been going on since they were an insular dictatorship in many ways. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of Brits who recoil any time they hear a foreign language being spoken in earshot while going on holiday to Benidorm and expecting not have to speak a word of Spanish -- it's not really anything outside of a beach location to them in many ways.

Sorry, I misinterpreted. I thought you were suggesting there's cultural genocide happening all over the EU, because people are learning English.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I'm very much an Anglo-Scottish European. I have lived in London for forty years and I love England. But when the wars of independence come, I'll be up there with ma people, fighting the old Highland way, bare-chested with a woad-coated baby in each arm.

 

I'm New Zealand-Maori-Scottish (Orkney actually). I'll just be giving moral support from down in the South Pacific.

Edited by The Anti-Targ

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1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm New Zealand-Maori-Scottish (Orkney actually). I'll just be giving moral support from down in the South Pacific.

You say that, but as soon as Jacob-Rees Mogg takes back control and rebuilds the English Navy to 1805 levels, he will come for you. 

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12 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Also its never actually been confirmed and has been denied it even exists.

So it definitely wasn't a KKK reference when it didn't happen? Right, that makes sense.

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1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

You say that, but as soon as Jacob-Rees Mogg takes back control and rebuilds the English Navy to 1805 levels, he will come for you. 

Rees-Mogg is inherent self-limiting in his struggle against modernity. Once he repeals the Parliament Act 1911 and the Reform Act 1832, he'll screw up, and repeal the Catholic Relief Act 1829 too, thereby making himself ineligible to sit in the Commons. 

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I'm confused. 

So, the Brexit deal is unacceptable, therefore May is not suitable to lead, which leads to May offering to resign if her unacceptable deal is accepted? What?

I get that members of her party might want a leadership change, putting personal enrichment before country, but how does this appeal to the other parties? Or do their votes not matter?

Also, I understand that there would be further negotiations, but what do these negotiations entail? I assume that the deal covers what should happen and the further negotiations are on the implementation (who, where, how). If so, then the deal should still be unacceptable regardless of who is negotiating it. What could a new negotiator achieve after that have already accepted the deal?

Then, there is now the vote on half the agreement. I assume this is purely to get past the speaker not allowing them a third vote on the same deal, but why would they think that the result would be different? Are they just going to try the brinksmanship approach until they either succeed or fall off the cliff?

I honestly can't make any sense of this. Is there any logic behind their decisions or are they just randomly throwing things at the wall and hoping that one of them sticks? 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

So, the Brexit deal is unacceptable, therefore May is not suitable to lead, which leads to May offering to resign if her unacceptable deal is accepted? What?

I get that members of her party might want a leadership change, putting personal enrichment before country, but how does this appeal to the other parties? Or do their votes not matter?

Short version.

May's resignation is a bit like the proverbial Turd polisher. She hopes that will get her deal thru (which it probably won't).

No, she needs votes from other parties for her deal, too. However if she can't get gang of mummers in line, then her deal would even stand less of chance.

4 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

Also, I understand that there would be further negotiations, but what do these negotiations entail? I assume that the deal covers what should happen and the further negotiations are on the implementation (who, where, how). If so, then the deal should still be unacceptable regardless of who is negotiating it. What could a new negotiator achieve after that have already accepted the deal? 

Then, there is now the vote on half the agreement. I assume this is purely to get past the speaker not allowing them a third vote on the same deal, but why would they think that the result would be different? Are they just going to try the brinksmanship approach until they either succeed or fall off the cliff?

Yes, the goverment tried to split the package in two. The binding Withdrawal agreement is what they are voting on today. The other half (well more like 20%) is the non-binding political declaration about the future relationship. The fun thing is, the poisonous chalice (aka the Irish backstop) is in the WA. Go figure.

Yes, it's pretty much May's My deal or highway approach.

 

 

Small (but obvious) observation. If the WA gets voted thru, it pretty much puts a people's vote (with Remain) to rest. If that thing gets voted thru, the UK will leave the EU before the EU election. Which logically rules out Remain as the UK will have left by then. If it gets voted down, the UK will be faced with the choice of applying for a long extension and thus participation in the European elections (let's just assume that request won't get vetoed), or leave with no deal April 13th.

 

I think that is pretty much what's going on today.

 

Edited by A Horse Named Stranger

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1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

-snip-

Thanks. That makes sense. I can kind of see what May is trying to do now, though I still don't understand what the other MPs are thinking.

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Couple of Brexiteer Tories have mentioned that they will vote for her WA knowing she is leaving because it means someone who is hopefully not shit will be in charge of future negotiations. I see the logic but it’s fanciful.

Hillary Benn has described voting for the WA as being like selling your house without knowing where you are going to live. Hint, that’s how A50 works mate. Not sure why all MPs want to use housing metaphors for Brexit, sums up Britain’s obsession with owning a house

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