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UK Politics: What Goes DUP Must Come Down

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7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There are probably realities where this makes sense, but this isn't one of them.

I was unfortunately implying that you sounded like a conspiracy theory nut job. Which is about the level this Grand Wizard  rubbish is hovering about.

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3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I was unfortunately implying that you sounded like a conspiracy theory nut job. Which is about the level this Grand Wizard  rubbish is hovering about.

Truly, nothing is sadder than the lone, single person screaming "YOU'RE ALL MAD, YOU'RE ALL MAD" when literally every other person in the conversation has reached the clear and logical opposing conclusion.

There are hills to die on and there are hills to die on, be blown to a million pieces by a nuclear bomb and then have crowds of people giggling over the crater left behind. You are firmly on the latter. Best back down from this position now before further humiliation is invited.

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I liked the response that Theresa May must simultaneously resign and not resign, and unless you observe her you cannot tell if she has in fact resigned or not. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Truly, nothing is sadder than the lone, single person screaming "YOU'RE ALL MAD, YOU'RE ALL MAD" when literally every other person in the conversation has reached the clear and logical opposing conclusion.

There are hills to die on and there are hills to die on, be blown to a million pieces by a nuclear bomb and then have crowds of people giggling over the crater left behind. You are firmly on the latter. Best back down from this position now before further humiliation is invited.

Lol,  yes well when you are the only sane person locked in with a bunch of mad men  of course you tend to question your sanity

I can’t believe I’m honestly having to discuss this either, it seems so rudimentary.

In what scenario where someone is completely aware of the connotation of the term Grand Wizard, do they then decide to use it to describe themselves? It makes zero sense. The obvious and simple answer is that not everyone is a woke internet nerd, and people like JRM have other things to concern themselves with and weren’t thinking about it in the same way you were

There is plenty to dislike about JRMs ideas, abortion and gay marriage for example, but coming up with gibberish like this simply makes you look like a bunch of dribbling loons.

But anyway, shall we get back to Brexit?

Edited by Heartofice

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24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I was unfortunately implying that you sounded like a conspiracy theory nut job. Which is about the level this Grand Wizard  rubbish is hovering about.

It’s not much of a conspiracy theory, saying that one thing is the same as another thing.  If we were to try and tie in the Spanish Holy Week celebrants you mentioned, that’ve have the makings of a nice conspiracy theory.

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

In what scenario where someone is completely aware of the connotation of the term Grand Wizard, do they then decide to use it to describe themselves?

When they don’t think anybody else will find out.

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I've got to say, hard Brexit is looking more and more like the likely outcome. Nobody can agree on anything, and I'm guessing the only way that changes is if some coalition gets scared and votes for May's deal, which seems incredibly unlikely at this point.

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30 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 the supremacy ... feelings over facts.

 

This has always been the case. Feelings matter more than facts to most people. If think making decisions on facts rather than feelings is rule rather than the exception, then I have a bridge over the Thames I would like to sell you. I think the illusion is that most people think they are making emotionless fact-based decisions. The only consistent fact about how people behave and act is what they are feeling at the time.

What's changed is how people are feeling (insecure, unsafe) and their responses to those feelings, and the political ends that are being sought because of the presence of those feelings. On a bit of a tangent, but related to feelings IMO, there are reports of an increase in inquiries about immigration into New Zealand AFTER the mosque attacks including people from overseas Muslim communities, and also Muslim residents in NZ saying they actually feel safer and more accepted in NZ since the attacks than before it. 

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8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Lol,  yes well when you are the only sane person locked in with a bunch of mad men  of course you tend to question your sanity

There's an adage you should pay attention to.

When you meet a jerk in the morning, you've met one jerk,

When you meet another jerk in the afternoon, you've met two jerks,

When you meet a third jerk in the evening, chances are that it's you who is the jerk.

 

Take the L and move on dude.

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Posted (edited)

OK, does anyone know how many Conservatives are in the Cabinet?  Looking at the MP list it looked like 32 Tories didn't vote, but some of those might have been just absent or non-committal.  A BBC page from last November suggests 22 plus Theresa May.  Just trying to work out what the most popular options are.  From today:

People’s Vote on whatever deal: 268 votes for, 295 against (27 votes short) - but missing Cabinet

Customs Union: 264 votes for, 272 against (8 votes short) - but missing Cabinet

Previously:

Theresa May’s deal 2nd go: 242 votes for, 391 against (149 votes short)

So looking at these results, it seems to me that the closest result is Custom's Union - that would presumably be a greater difference if the Cabinet had voted too (against), but there are a lot of MPs who abstained, who might be persuadable maybe.  I don;t know exactly the full details of that form of Brexit* but it would be a softer one.

*because it just says any form of Brexit would have to include it (would also be fulfilled by Remaining, though doesn't say that explicitly)

Edited by Sophelia

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Posted (edited)

To suggest that at least since the last 3 years of US politics leading UK political figures aren't aware of a long standing title used in the KKK stretches credulity. It's not a question of being woke in the slightest. It's a question of how in their own navel these people are not to know the connection even in the vaguest of senses. I give most of the ERG people at least some credit of being aware of more about the world than what the lint looks like inside their belly buttons and the inside view of their own rectums. But maybe I'm wrong in that.

Edited by The Anti-Targ

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5 minutes ago, Sophelia said:

OK, does anyone know how many Conservatives are in the Cabinet?  Looking at the MP list it looked like 32 Tories didn't vote, but some of those might have been just absent or non-committal.  A BBC page from last November suggests 22 plus Theresa May.  Just trying to work out what the most popular options are.

I think it's 22 including Theresa May, but certainly in that ballpark.

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For what it’s worth, “Grand Wizard” in reference to the KKK came up in my GCSE history curriculum. To suggest the title would be used by a British politician in complete innocent ignorance of its connotations is insulting.

In order to get her deal through, assuming she circumvents Bercow (one of “substantial” changes suggested by Downing Street to allow the vote has been that the departure date has no changed, which is pretty weak), May needs the DUP to at least abstain, right? If they vote against MV3 as they’ve now said they would, you’d need a few opposition MPs to get cold feet to pass the deal.

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Rees Mogg has a degree in history, but that's not evidence enough for the thread's own gammony MRA dipshit.

History is for internet nerds, and not those who read history at Cambridge, apparently.

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41 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

In what scenario where someone is completely aware of the connotation of the term Grand Wizard, do they then decide to use it to describe themselves? It makes zero sense.

 

...unless you're Boris Johnson, self-proclaimed leader of the Grand Jizzards, sending out yet another racist dog-whistle to your fawning rabble of gullible, racist cunts.

In that scenario, it makes a tonne of sense.

 

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Who the hell hasn't heard of the KKK and the title Grand Wizard?

I mean I'd get it if it was a bunch of 5 year olds playing dress up, but this is a bunch of university educated politicians. It's not exactly an obscure reference.

I live in Australia and it sure as fuck came up in schooling here.

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Just now, Impmk2 said:

Who the hell hasn't heard of the KKK and the title Grand Wizard?

I mean I'd get it if it was a bunch of 5 year olds playing dress up, but this is a bunch of university educated politicians. It's not exactly an obscure reference.

I live in Australia and it sure as fuck came up in schooling here.

Exactly. Remember, this is Boris Johnson we're talking about. He's well aware of the terminology.

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Posted (edited)

O come off it. I agree with HoI. This 'Grand Wizards' thing has been blown up to ludicrous and asinine proportions. They're not trying to send out racist dog whistles by calling themselves 'Grand Wizards.' At worst its probably a bit of self-deprecating humour at what a bunch of goons they're being. 

Anyway, that vote for the third referendum was very encouraging indeed. It got the highest number of votes but the margin for the customs union was bigger.

The customs union thing is sort of sensible in a way but also totally daft because May's deal does include a customs union (the all-UK backstop). Putting the customs union in the PD just splits the Tory party while actually doing less to guarantee the CU outcome than the current treaty. It's madness if this is actually the solution. And it does not really fit well with a third referendum either, if you're going to have another referendum it would be best for May's deal to go up against Remain, as that will be perceived as a bit more Brexity than May's deal + CU, even though, as I said, I struggle to see any real practical difference. 

I am chuffed the pathetic Boles plan and Labour's piece of drivel failed so badly though. The House proved more sensible than I thought; soft Brexit is a bad idea, it solves nothing.

Edited by Nothing Has Changed

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Posted (edited)

Oh yeah, it’s definitely an insider joke.  Whether it’s supposed to be self deprecating or mocking leftist liberal outrage I dunno. It’s still lame.

The interesting thing about knowing what “grand wizard” means is that Laura Kuenssberg, whose tweet started it off, either doesn’t realise the KKK connection, or thinks that her BBC remit doesn’t allow her to mention it.

Edited by john

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54 minutes ago, Sophelia said:

OK, does anyone know how many Conservatives are in the Cabinet?  Looking at the MP list it looked like 32 Tories didn't vote, but some of those might have been just absent or non-committal.  A BBC page from last November suggests 22 plus Theresa May.  Just trying to work out what the most popular options are.  From today:

People’s Vote on whatever deal: 268 votes for, 295 against (27 votes short) - but missing Cabinet

Customs Union: 264 votes for, 272 against (8 votes short) - but missing Cabinet

Previously:

Theresa May’s deal 2nd go: 242 votes for, 391 against (149 votes short)

So looking at these results, it seems to me that the closest result is Custom's Union - that would presumably be a greater difference if the Cabinet had voted too (against), but there are a lot of MPs who abstained, who might be persuadable maybe.  I don;t know exactly the full details of that form of Brexit* but it would be a softer one.

*because it just says any form of Brexit would have to include it (would also be fulfilled by Remaining, though doesn't say that explicitly)

At first glance it did seem weird that the People's Vote got the most votes but the Customs Union got far closed to passing. Looking at the Guardian's results it seems that the TIG MPs voted against it and the SNP and Lib Dems abstained, but they all voted for the People's Vote. I suppose it's not too surprising, May's deal plus a Customs Union is still a long way from the close relationship they want to keep with Europe. I don't know whether any of them might be persuadable if there was a second round of voting.

18 minutes ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

I am chuffed the pathetic Boles plan and Labour's piece of drivel failed so badly though. The House proved more sensible than I thought; soft Brexit is a bad idea, it solves nothing.

It did seem very late in the day to be trying to come up with complex plans like Norway 2.0 that would involve long negotiations with the EU.

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