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Kalbear

TIAMAT'S WRATH - Book 8 of Expanse (SPOILERS)

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3 hours ago, End of Disc One said:

I wasn't a fan of Marco.  We kept being told that he was charismatic, but to me he did not read as a very charismatic villain. 

Drink bleach.

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18 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Drink bleach.

Narcissists are incredibly unappealing.  Marco was a narcissist of the first order.

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8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Narcissists are incredibly unappealing.  Marco was a narcissist of the first order.

My first order will be to put you outside like a space dog.

Spoiler

I don't know what that means but it was fun to write.

 

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10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Narcissists are incredibly unappealing.  Marco was a narcissist of the first order.

??  It seems like a lot of charismatic, cult-of-personality types are narcissists.  Look no further than one in the Oval Office.  And Marco was capable of enunciating the grievances, fears and desires of the ordinary belters in his public comments, which is all you need to do. 

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2 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

My first order will be to put you outside like a space dog.

  Hide contents

I don't know what that means but it was fun to write.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

??  It seems like a lot of charismatic, cult-of-personality types are narcissists.  Look no further than one in the Oval Office.  And Marco was capable of enunciating the grievances, fears and desires of the ordinary belters in his public comments, which is all you need to do. 

I've known about Trump since the 80's when he started showing up on TV.  I've never liked him and I've always found his brash and rude style off putting.  

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4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I've known about Trump since the 80's when he started showing up on TV.  I've never liked him and I've always found his brash and rude style off putting.  

So?  While you may find Trump unappealing for being a narcissistic jerk, there are obviously a lot of people who love his shtick.  Portraying Marco as similarly narcissistic isn't a flaw, it felt like a very realistic character choice. 

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4 hours ago, Maithanet said:

So?  While you may find Trump unappealing for being a narcissistic jerk, there are obviously a lot of people who love his shtick.  Portraying Marco as similarly narcissistic isn't a flaw, it felt like a very realistic character choice. 

You are missing my point.  I understand that people don't necessarily agree with my POV. 

I'll be honest I don't understand, on a visceral level, why people find folks like Trump and Marco appealing.  People so absolutely convinced of the correctness of all their actions generally give me the hebby jeebies.  

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You are missing my point.  I understand that people don't necessarily agree with my POV. 

I'll be honest I don't understand, on a visceral level why people find folks like Trump and Marco appealing.  People so absolutely convinced of the correctness of all their actions generally give me the hebby jeebies.  

One of Abraham's other series, Dagger & Coin, has some really good commentary on the danger of certainty.

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22 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You are missing my point.  I understand that people don't necessarily agree with my POV. 

I'll be honest I don't understand, on a visceral level, why people find folks like Trump and Marco appealing.  People so absolutely convinced of the correctness of all their actions generally give me the hebby jeebies.  

This seems like a very odd position for someone who has professed deeply held religious views in an omnipotent being to hold. 

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

This seems like a very odd position for someone who has professed deeply held religious views in an omnipotent being to hold. 

You think I don’t question and never have doubts?

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You think I don’t question and never have doubts?

I don't honestly know, but in general the idea that you have problems with someone professing pure clarity does not seem compatible with worshipping something that professes pure clarity. In any case, it seems like an odd thing to not understand - surely if you are religious and see a whole lot of people who are religious, being able to understand the call of people towards someone who says that they have a plan, that everything is set, and you only have to have faith seems a bit odd to me.

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32 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't honestly know, but in general the idea that you have problems with someone professing pure clarity does not seem compatible with worshipping something that professes pure clarity. In any case, it seems like an odd thing to not understand - surely if you are religious and see a whole lot of people who are religious, being able to understand the call of people towards someone who says that they have a plan, that everything is set, and you only have to have faith seems a bit odd to me.

If I posited my faith providing pure clarity you might have a point.  If anything my faith prompts more questions than answers, at least for me.  You have a very skewed idea of what it means to be "religious".  Are some folks certain to the point of irritability, sure.  Do I run into co-religionists who are irritatingly certain about their beliefs and how it directs their lives, sure.  But I meet just as many believers struggling with self doubt and conflicting points of faith as I do with overly certain believers.  

Back in the day I believe a border proposed a two axis grid of theism/atheism.  Agnostic theists (who believe God exists but don't claim certainty) and gnostic theists (who claim God exists and claim to be certain about that).  Agnostic atheists (who don't believe God exists but don't claim certainty) and gnostic atheists (who claim God does not exist and do claim to be certain about that).  I'm an Agnostic Theist on that grid.  

To circle back to your point, I understand that people like that kind of certainty and gravitate towards it.  I do not personally understand why people find such certainty appealing.  But that's me. 

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If I posited my faith providing pure clarity you might have a point.  If anything my faith prompts more questions than answers, at least for me.  You have a very skewed idea of what it means to be "religious".  Are some folks certain to the point of irritability, sure.  Do I run into co-religionists who are irritatingly certain about their beliefs and how it directs their lives, sure.  But I meet just as many believers struggling with self doubt and conflicting points of faith as I do with overly certain believers.  

Back in the day I believe a border proposed a two axis grid of theism/atheism.  Agnostic theists (who believe God exists but don't claim certainty) and gnostic theists (who claim God exists and claim to be certain about that).  Agnostic atheists (who don't believe God exists but don't claim certainty) and gnostic atheists (who claim God does not exist and do claim to be certain about that).  I'm an Agnostic Theist on that grid.  

You stated that you do not understand at a visceral level why some people find people like Marco and Trump appealing. This appears to be disingenuous or incredibly incurious, as the precise reason why people find Marco appealing is why many find religion appealing. 

I am not saying you do or do not struggle with your faith. I am saying that it is weird that you do not understand a person who can be attracted to certainty, given that you almost certainly encounter these people on a regular basis if you are not one yourself. Hell, I suspect you understand it very well - because most people who are uncertain have the thought 'well, it'd be AWESOME to be certain about things like that other person and not worry about it any more'. 

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5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You stated that you do not understand at a visceral level why some people find people like Marco and Trump appealing. This appears to be disingenuous or incredibly incurious, as the precise reason why people find Marco appealing is why many find religion appealing. 

I am not saying you do or do not struggle with your faith. I am saying that it is weird that you do not understand a person who can be attracted to certainty, given that you almost certainly encounter these people on a regular basis if you are not one yourself. Hell, I suspect you understand it very well - because most people who are uncertain have the thought 'well, it'd be AWESOME to be certain about things like that other person and not worry about it any more'. 

Please see my edit.  Knowing that people do something is not the same thing as understanding why people find doing something appealing.  Certainty is not why I believe.  It has never been.  

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Discussions about religion and politics more properly belong in GenChat rather than a discussion about a book series unless it directly pertains to the book series. The religion angle seems a bit of a non sequitur in this discussion.

 

Quote

 

One of Abraham's other series, Dagger & Coin, has some really good commentary on the danger of certainty.

 

Also in KJ Parker's The Folding Knife (which sometimes feels like it's doing some of the same stuff as Dagger and the Coin but in just one focused volume with less spider demons).

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On 1/23/2020 at 5:22 PM, Kalbear said:

You stated that you do not understand at a visceral level why some people find people like Marco and Trump appealing. This appears to be disingenuous or incredibly incurious, as the precise reason why people find Marco appealing is why many find religion appealing. 

I am not saying you do or do not struggle with your faith. I am saying that it is weird that you do not understand a person who can be attracted to certainty, given that you almost certainly encounter these people on a regular basis if you are not one yourself. Hell, I suspect you understand it very well - because most people who are uncertain have the thought 'well, it'd be AWESOME to be certain about things like that other person and not worry about it any more'. 

Comparing Marco and religion is bizarre because the reason people follow a charismatic populist demagogue and the lifelong devotion people have with faith is something that has some Venn diagram overlap but, honestly, not really all that similar. It's reaching and you might as well say the reason people follow Trump is the fact they like money. Yes, there might be some there but it's not the primary or even secondary reason.

Marco has the following he does because as a terrorist leader he promised global immediate and brutal revenge for a century of Belter oppression. It's not his certainty that attracts his followers but bloody revenge that he provides. That's like being certain about gravity. The cruelty is the point and he's providing an outlet for the Belt's hatred. He makes a lot of promises of glory but the appeal to the basest and nastiest instincts is something hes' fully capable of delivering.

Edited by C.T. Phipps

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I couldn’t remember if the title for Book 9 had been released yet, so I Googled “Book 9 Expanse.”

I swear to God, one of the suggested common search questions was “What order should I read The Expanse?”

:bang: 

Seriously?!!!?  WTF????  

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1 hour ago, Rhom said:

I couldn’t remember if the title for Book 9 had been released yet, so I Googled “Book 9 Expanse.”

I swear to God, one of the suggested common search questions was “What order should I read The Expanse?”

:bang: 

Seriously?!!!?  WTF????  

When you consider the shorts and novellas it actually isnt an unreasonable question.

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