Ser Uncle P Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Quote "Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse" ASOS chapter 26 I always thought Ygritte was referring to the Wildling taboo on incest here, and the fact that Crasters father was a Nights Watch man. But what if the "heavy curse" refers to Craster's worship of the White Walkers? And more than a personal curse on Craster, but a familial or generational one that tribal people like Ygritte would see as real. Craster himself doesn't hide the fact that he worships the Others from fellow Wildlings... Quote "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round" ASOS chapter. 33 His "wives" openly call them "cold gods" and "Craster's sons", showing they take the protection from the Others as a natural topic of conversation. But where did this "religion" come from? Crasters' sacrificial worship of the WW can't have been a homespun religion that the old pervert cooked up himself. It could well be a deviant cult North of the Wall, which persisted for generations, and Craster is the only living "priest" of it. If the first men in the South entered into a pact with the COTF at the Isle of faces, possibly embittered Wildlings north of the wall did something similar centuries later after being "caught" on the wrong side of the wall. Trading the "old gods" for "cold gods" to survive, which would be seen as an abomination by other Wildlings. A "priest" of the cult receives immunity from the WW in exchange for giving his sons up. Perhaps Craster wasn't given up himself to the others on account of the Night Watchman paternity, but if his mother was a daughter of a previous "priest", it might qualify him to serve. Thoughts? Craster's worship can't have come out of thin air... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said: I always thought Ygritte was referring to the Wildling taboo on incest here, and the fact that Crasters father was a Nights Watch man. But what if the "heavy curse" refers to Craster's worship of the White Walkers? And more than a personal curse on Craster, but a familial or generational one that tribal people like Ygritte would see as real. Craster himself doesn't hide the fact that he worships the Others from fellow Wildlings... His "wives" openly call them "cold gods" and "Craster's sons", showing they take the protection from the Others as a natural topic of conversation. But where did this "religion" come from? Crasters' sacrificial worship of the WW can't have been a homespun religion that the old pervert cooked up himself. It could well be a deviant cult North of the Wall, which persisted for generations, and Craster is the only living "priest" of it. If the first men in the South entered into a pact with the COTF at the Isle of faces, possibly embittered Wildlings north of the wall did something similar centuries later after being "caught" on the wrong side of the wall. Trading the "old gods" for "cold gods" to survive, which would be seen as an abomination by other Wildlings. A "priest" of the cult receives immunity from the WW in exchange for giving his sons up. Perhaps Craster wasn't given up himself to the others on account of the Night Watchman paternity, but if his mother was a daughter of a previous "priest", it might qualify him to serve. Thoughts? Craster's worship can't have come out of thin air... Hey man, a lot less crackpot than some of what I read. I like it. I often wondered about the generational curse - perhaps he is a descendant of the Night's King or something of the like. It had to start somewhere, I think the 99th son thing and Jon being the 998th LC is all significant somehow and will tie together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 21 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said: It had to start somewhere, I think the 99th son thing That’s something the abomination invented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: That’s something the abomination invented. It's all melting together.... I'll try not to blaspheme again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 32 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said: It's all melting together.... I'll try not to blaspheme again! It does happen, where it gets all mixed up at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: It does happen, where it gets all mixed up at times. Easy to forget that the idea of the Others as Craster's sons is in books as well, just not as explicit as HBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Restoration Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said: I always thought Ygritte was referring to the Wildling taboo on incest here, and the fact that Crasters father was a Nights Watch man. But what if the "heavy curse" refers to Craster's worship of the White Walkers? And more than a personal curse on Craster, but a familial or generational one that tribal people like Ygritte would see as real. Craster himself doesn't hide the fact that he worships the Others from fellow Wildlings... His "wives" openly call them "cold gods" and "Craster's sons", showing they take the protection from the Others as a natural topic of conversation. But where did this "religion" come from? Crasters' sacrificial worship of the WW can't have been a homespun religion that the old pervert cooked up himself. It could well be a deviant cult North of the Wall, which persisted for generations, and Craster is the only living "priest" of it. If the first men in the South entered into a pact with the COTF at the Isle of faces, possibly embittered Wildlings north of the wall did something similar centuries later after being "caught" on the wrong side of the wall. Trading the "old gods" for "cold gods" to survive, which would be seen as an abomination by other Wildlings. A "priest" of the cult receives immunity from the WW in exchange for giving his sons up. Perhaps Craster wasn't given up himself to the others on account of the Night Watchman paternity, but if his mother was a daughter of a previous "priest", it might qualify him to serve. Thoughts? Craster's worship can't have come out of thin air... Craster is not the only one who worshiped the Others. You could be on the right track. This Craster is not a man to theorize and invent his own religion. The north worshiped the Others as gods and Craster is only doing what his forebears have always done. It's a pact with ice. Craster is a First Man and his people worshipped the Others in the past. The Others see themselves as gods who deserved worship and they bless those who do. We can only look at some hints there. Mance Rayder becoming king beyond the wall and not paying his respects to the Others is reason enough for them to curse the wildlings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 I think Crasters ancestors made a similar pact with the Others to the one made at the Isle of Faces between the Southern First Men and the COTF. This pact (maybe at Whitetree?) could have started off this cult. After all, what was to stop Wildlings north of the wall stabbing the Walkers with Obsidian? But if the Walkers can offer their acolytes some form of immunity from the power of Winter, why not accept the role of a God over them. ( Or almost like a feudal overlord taking his vassals children as hostages or a ward) Other Wildlings, who fear the cold above all see Craster's kind as apostates from the Old Gods, but don't dare touch them because of the pact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 34 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said: Easy to forget that the idea of the Others as Craster's sons is in books as well, just not as explicit as HBO. The 99th son is added by the abomination. Also, we don’t know what’s actually going on in the books. Craster’s daughter/wives believe he has worked out some sort of deal w/ the WWs, but they may be only repeating what he’s told them. We simply don’t know. He leaves his sons out, implies they’re offerings for the WWs and that’s why the WWs leave them alone. The only part of that we can be sure of is that he leaves his sons in the woods. I think the evil nasty incestuous paedo is just getting rid of potential threats to himself, and feeding the women a totally bollocks fairytale to justify what he does. Maybe the WWs do take his sons, and it works well for all involved. Maybe the boys just die of exposure or become shadowcat chow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: The 99th son is added by the abomination. Also, we don’t know what’s actually going on in the books. Craster’s daughter/wives believe he has worked out some sort of deal w/ the WWs, but they may be only repeating what he’s told them. We simply don’t know. He leaves his sons out, implies they’re offerings for the WWs and that’s why the WWs leave them alone. The only part of that we can be sure of is that he leaves his sons in the woods. I think the evil nasty incestuous paedo is just getting rid of potential threats to himself, and feeding the women a totally bollocks fairytale to justify what he does. Maybe the WWs do take his sons, and it works well for all involved. Maybe the boys just die of exposure or become shadowcat chow. If it's a fairytale he's spinning his daughter/wives, then what is it that deters other Wildlings from skinning the filthy old pervert alive? He openly worships "other" gods, commits egregious acts of sexual perversion and gives shelter to Nights Watch men without a hint of fear. I don't think it was fairytales alone that kept the likes of the Weeper or Alfyn Crowkiller out of Craster's keep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Alright. Here's the deal with Craster. He's cursed by society but favored by his Gods. People project their own feelings into what they think God wants. What if that's not the case? The Starks were giving blood to their pet tree and it grew. Grew. Grew some more. And so on. What people think is not necessarily what the gods think. Those men who slaughtered Craster and his family are in for a great deal of hurt if Craster's gods find them. God for the purpose of the story is just a being with superior powers instead of our guy who hasn't shaved in six months and got nailed to a tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 It pretty much ties to the Corpse Bride and 13th lord commander story. He did the same as Craster. Joramun probably teamed up with Brandon the Breaker to end this kind of thing. The guy is a survivor, so I think he just resorted to doing what he knew would allow him to live on beyond the wall, which he had heard of probably just as much as freefolk did, the difference is they don't do this stuff anymore. An old practice, mostly forgotten and forbidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wm Portnoy Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Freedom is paid for with the blood of the sons. Craster and the Starks were paying for the right to occupy the north with the blood of their kind. Winterfell for the Starks and the Keep for Craster. This is true in the rw because it is the sons that get sent off to war. The sacrifice of the sons keep a nation free from enemies who would seek to destroy her. Craster would be aware of this need if he was a Stark. The practice being handed down through the family for thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: The 99th son is added by the abomination. Also, we don’t know what’s actually going on in the books. Craster’s daughter/wives believe he has worked out some sort of deal w/ the WWs, but they may be only repeating what he’s told them. We simply don’t know. He leaves his sons out, implies they’re offerings for the WWs and that’s why the WWs leave them alone. The only part of that we can be sure of is that he leaves his sons in the woods. I think the evil nasty incestuous paedo is just getting rid of potential threats to himself, and feeding the women a totally bollocks fairytale to justify what he does. Maybe the WWs do take his sons, and it works well for all involved. Maybe the boys just die of exposure or become shadowcat chow. Maintaining his position is most definitely reason enough for Craster to kill his sons. Sooooo many real life historical examples of sons killing fathers/brothers to take power in some form or fashion. A 'sacrifice to the cold gods to give us protection' could well just be propaganda to ensure the continued existence of Crasters regime. When you rule through fear it certainly doesn't hurt to add a supernatural element to your schtick, just another layer of control/deception that a weak man uses to continue to hold his daughter wives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three-Fingered Pete Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Craster’s daughter/wives believe he has worked out some sort of deal w/ the WWs, but they may be only repeating what he’s told them. We simply don’t know. He leaves his sons out, implies they’re offerings for the WWs and that’s why the WWs leave them alone. The only part of that we can be sure of is that he leaves his sons in the woods. I think the evil nasty incestuous paedo is just getting rid of potential threats to himself, and feeding the women a totally bollocks fairytale to justify what he does. Maybe the WWs do take his sons, and it works well for all involved. Maybe the boys just die of exposure or become shadowcat chow. Scrubbing the "abomination" from my brain, I would tend to agree with this assessment. The only glitch to me is that end part. Wouldn't there be bones scattered about in the woods? There must have been many (perhaps dozens) of these boys left out to die by the time we get to meet Craster. They all can't have been carried off and secretly devoured, never to be seen again. A simple remedy to this is that Craster buries them after murdering them. The snow would hide all traces. It occurred to me that we might be coming at this Craster thing all wrong. What if it isn't Craster? What if it's his Keep? We have other old places and structures that act as guards and wards against the Others and the wights (Wall, CotF's cave, Black Gate). After Craster is killed, the Keep is still seemingly safe. The Others don't swarm the place, it seems; in fact Coldhands is responsible for killing five of the mutineers outside the Keep, but he doesn't go in to get the rest, as far as we know. IIRC, the Wildlings don't say anything regarding Craster's wives or the mutineers on their march south either after the battle or after they pass through the Wall. If the babies were sacrificed to allow the Keep to remain safe by refreshing an old spell of warding, then the ward would be good until the next sacrifice is required, in which case the Keep's, and its occupants, days are numbered. Of course, the "abomination" could always be right <shudders> and the babies were WW spawn. It could explain why they seemingly have halted for the time being. Their supply of new offerings has stopped and Sam killed one of them. That might give them pause or at least give them cause to worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullocose Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 What if Craster's wives are wrong??? What if Craster is a Red Herring??? What if Craster's Sons are sacrificed to the Giant Weirwood in Whitetree (that had a burned child's skull in it's mouth)??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shi Qiang Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 6:44 PM, Targaryen Restoration said: Craster is not the only one who worshiped the Others. You could be on the right track. This Craster is not a man to theorize and invent his own religion. The north worshiped the Others as gods and Craster is only doing what his forebears have always done. It's a pact with ice. Craster is a First Man and his people worshipped the Others in the past. The Others see themselves as gods who deserved worship and they bless those who do. We can only look at some hints there. Mance Rayder becoming king beyond the wall and not paying his respects to the Others is reason enough for them to curse the wildlings. On 3/27/2019 at 8:23 PM, NonoNono said: It pretty much ties to the Corpse Bride and 13th lord commander story. He did the same as Craster. Joramun probably teamed up with Brandon the Breaker to end this kind of thing. The guy is a survivor, so I think he just resorted to doing what he knew would allow him to live on beyond the wall, which he had heard of probably just as much as freefolk did, the difference is they don't do this stuff anymore. An old practice, mostly forgotten and forbidden. Why are the children of Craster and the 13th Lord Commander important to the Others? The commander was a Stark. Maybe Craster and the Others came from Stark stock. The Valyrian rulers are suspected to have a little dragon blood. The story has symmetry so the Starks and Craster must also have a little bit of Other DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Allardyce said: Why are the children of Craster and the 13th Lord Commander important to the Others? The commander was a Stark. Maybe Craster and the Others came from Stark stock. The Valyrian rulers are suspected to have a little dragon blood. The story has symmetry so the Starks and Craster must also have a little bit of Other DNA. I think the NW was just handing over any babies. Craster is seemingly the only one doing this. The freefolk are very tribal, so maybe no one would be allowed to do this and live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted March 30, 2019 Author Share Posted March 30, 2019 13 hours ago, NonoNono said: I think the NW was just handing over any babies. Craster is seemingly the only one doing this. The freefolk are very tribal, so maybe no one would be allowed to do this and live. The fact that no Wildlings took out the filthy old pervert kinda validates the idea that he did have protection of a sort from the WW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said: The fact that no Wildlings took out the filthy old pervert kinda validates the idea that he did have protection of a sort from the WW. Well he had protection because he was doing it. I assume if wildlings did the same, they would not be attacked, but they refuse to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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