Guest Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Jon is now a known Targ, so Dany and him getting together doesnt do it anymore. Jon and his cousins ("sisters") would seem to be the easiest way to fulfill the prophecy. Thoughts? Flames? Any facts to support those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 I will separate my arguments so folks can flame each one inepedently. 1) There are no other Targs left, and there are no other real Stark offspring left to fulfill this prophecy - so - Jon MUST marry Sansa or Arya, or at least have cute little dragon-wolf hybrid kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 2) GRRM did not add all of this incest just for craps and giggles, it must lead somewhere thematically, and Jon and the sisterhood doing the wild thing makes alot of sense based on how the novels have developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 3) Instead of doing this argument, just watch this video (foreshadowing): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 4) Those that think Jon Snow will marry for medeival social reasons (bring together two houses left at the end), I believe miss the point of the books. GRRM almost never lets an arranged marriage work (Tyrion, Cersei, Robb) and revels in screwed up relationships - and what is more Freudian that marrying your sister (who is really your cousin). I am also not sure many, or any, traditional houses survive the final war between the NK and the Stark clan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Claw Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Providing Jon isn't going to be a true Beric-fire-zombie, I do think Jon and Sansa will marry. As I said on the other thread, Sansa is the most eligible in women in Westeros. I think the fact that she is so closely related to the Riverlands and the Vale also factor into this possible marriage. It's a good political match, and I see the show has done many similar scenes between Jon and Sansa that were later done between Jon and Dany, so I think a marriage between them will be more romantic in nature than political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 2:35 PM, GrapefruitPerrier said: 4) Those that think Jon Snow will marry for medeival social reasons (bring together two houses left at the end), I believe miss the point of the books. GRRM almost never lets an arranged marriage work (Tyrion, Cersei, Robb) and revels in screwed up relationships - and what is more Freudian that marrying your sister (who is really your cousin). I am also not sure many, or any, traditional houses survive the final war between the NK and the Stark clan. Ned And Cat did ok, No way Jon marries Sansa, glad this thread is here for lol's after the season ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Claw Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Error-504 said: No way Jon marries Sansa, glad this thread is here for lol's after the season ends. There are a few Jon and Sansa threads here on Westeros, archived I guess. There was one that went on for a few months after season six aired as I recall before it was frozen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 It already happened through Rhaegar and Lyanna. It took a lot of deaths to make it happen. Jon is the prince who was promised. But a prince is a son of a king or queen, and Rhaegar was no king, he was a prince himself. Jon is not a prince, not yet. And the promise was to whom? One would think that a promise of a prince would be to someone who can have no child. Ice = Lyanna Fire = Rhaegar Dragon glass = frozen fire A Song of Ice & Fire = How the prince who was promised will come to be: dragonglass through the heart of Jon, Azor Ahai reborn, the prince to succeed the Night King, the CotF once again under his protection, beyond the new wall, and at the same time Jon becomes the new King Beyond the Wall, living on in snowed-in and ruined Winterfell, with the resurrected Daenerys (well ok maybe not, maybe she's dead dead ). Sansa I think marries the self-proclaimed Aegon, the leader of the Golden Company, who would take the name Aegon to get the benefit of all the good things that Jon-Aegon did while leaving Jon with all the crap-reputation that he has inherited through misinformation, rumors, propaganda. If Winterfell is destroyed, its people are not, and Aegon marrying Sansa forces the northmen to accept him at a time when they have nothing left. It's a good win for them considering the situation, plus Sansa is probably going to end being the true ruler. Aegon is Varys' puppet, and Varys is likely going to die, whereas Sansa is LF's figurative heir. There is a reason Jon is named Aegon, it's like the two Johns in The Accursed Kings. He will end up with the bad reputation, unable to claim his rightful place, because "Power lies where men believe it does.", not where it belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 33 minutes ago, NonoNono said: It already happened through Rhaegar and Lyanna. It took a lot of deaths to make it happen. Jon is the prince who was promised. But a prince is a son of a king or queen, and Rhaegar was no king, he was a prince himself. Jon is not a prince, not yet. And the promise was to whom? One would think that a promise of a prince would be to someone who can have no child. Ice = Lyanna Fire = Rhaegar Dragon glass = frozen fire A Song of Ice & Fire = How the prince who was promised will come to be: dragonglass through the heart of Jon, Azor Ahai reborn, the prince to succeed the Night King, the CotF once again under his protection, beyond the new wall, and at the same time Jon becomes the new King Beyond the Wall, living on in snowed-in and ruined Winterfell, with the resurrected Daenerys (well ok maybe not, maybe she's dead dead ). Sansa I think marries the self-proclaimed Aegon, the leader of the Golden Company, who would take the name Aegon to get the benefit of all the good things that Jon-Aegon did while leaving Jon with all the crap-reputation that he has inherited through misinformation, rumors, propaganda. If Winterfell is destroyed, its people are not, and Aegon marrying Sansa forces the northmen to accept him at a time when they have nothing left. It's a good win for them considering the situation, plus Sansa is probably going to end being the true ruler. Aegon is Varys' puppet, and Varys is likely going to die, whereas Sansa is LF's figurative heir. There is a reason Jon is named Aegon, it's like the two Johns in The Accursed Kings. He will end up with the bad reputation, unable to claim his rightful place, because "Power lies where men believe it does.", not where it belongs. Yeah, because all brilliant stories end with the marriage of a main character (Sansa) to someone that isn't even a secondary player. Just stop, Sansa isn't going to marry the leader of the golden company, Harry Strickland is dragon fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juligen Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Maybe there is some foreshadow in the books about this pairing. Let me check... YOU WILL MARRY A KING.............. “You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”Arya screwed up her face. “No,” she said, “that’s Sansa." (Eddard V- A Game of Thrones) ------------------------------------------------------------- For me this quote is one of the most important quotes from the entire series because it pretty much sets up for the audience both Sansa and Arya story arc. Sansa will be the sister who will marry and have children and fulfill her childhood dreams of a happy family, which is why Love, marriage and children will be a constant theme in Sansa’s arc story. She will be treated as an object, passed around by the powerful players of the story, all interested in her claim of Winterfell and the North; she will be forced into marriage alliances and her future children will be desired for their claim in the North. Sansa will try to survive as much as she can, keeping still a slim hope to find love and happiness and maybe one day fulfill that sweet dream of a rebuilding her destroyed family. Arya will follow another path; she will be a warrior and ruler on her own. Arya always wanted to be the keeper of her own holdfast, she wanted to be a knight and fight in battle and most important, I believe Arya wanted to feel the independence that most women in Westeros could never feel. Not that love and marriage is not impossible for her, but I feel George wants Arya to be a Queen regent on her own. George is trying to tells us in this passage of the books that women should be able to choose their own paths and if its love, marriage and children what they wish for they should have it, but if its not, they should be free to figure out her own destiny. The tragedy of Lyanna Stark was that she never had a choice and was forced into marry someone she never cared for, and I believe George wants to show with both Sansa and Arya that girls should be free to choose their own dreams., because BOTH dreams are equality valid. A CLOAK STAINED IN FIRE AND BLOOD...................... When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. (A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII) --------------------------------------------------------- Sansa cloaked herself with a cloak stained in "Fire and Blood" the words of House Targaryen. For me this has always been one of the biggest foreshadows on the book and its interesting to notice how George used the character of Sandor Cleagane as a redherring for this scene in order to not make so obvious the connection with Jon. It was only when we make the connection of this particular scene with one that happened a few chapters before In the book A CLASH OF KINGS that it became pretty obvious this quote was about Jon Snow. ---------------------------------------------------------------- “I’ve never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I’ve been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?” Catelyn took a step backwards. “Brienne.” “No, that wasn’t it.” Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickled ran down onto his face, bright as blood. “Snow, that was the one. Such a white name … like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths.” A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII ----------------------------------------------------------- THE ORDER OF THE CHAPTERS OF THE BOOKS.... Every time Sansa’s marriage proposals are being discussed in the books, the next chapter usually its followed by a JON chapter. Once you put the two quotes together is that you really get it, what George was once again, very delicately trying to tells us. In the first book A GAME OF THRONES, chapter 4 Eddard I, we have King Robert arriving at Winterfell and asking to visit Lyanna tomb in the crypts of the castle. While there King Robert decides to ask for Sansa’s hand in marriage for his son prince Joffrey. This is the chapter where Sansa and Joffrey become officially betrothed to each other and their Royal engagement its made official. The very next chapter? JON. This is also the chapter where Jon Snow will get drunk in the Feats for the king and ask uncle Ben to join the NightsWatch. In a CLASH OF KINGS chapter 52, SANSA IV, Sansa will get her period and be finally “fit to bear children to the king”. Cersei then tries, as best as she can, to be a mother figure to Sansa in this very special moment and gives her a womanly advice. She tells her that love is a dangerous feeling that makes us all weaker and it should wiser for her to love only her children. Once again we have a chapter discussing Sansa future marriage to a king and the following chapter is JON VII. Finally on A STORM OF SWORDS, we have the famous chapter 68, Sansa VI, where she laments that no one will ever marry her for love, its only her name and Winterfell they all want. The very next chapter of the book? JON. Again, thats not a coincidence, George does this, he said that he takes a lot of planning and caring about the way he writes and structures his books. ------------------------------------------------------------------- A CLASH OF KINGS - THE WINTER ROSE In A CLASH OF KINGS we will have George very quietly making the connection with Jon, Sansa and the tale of Bael the Bard. While was I re reading the books I noticed that George was playing with the chapters orders and trying to tells us some hints of the story by putting characters chpaters next to each other. The first time Jon meets Ygritte on “A CLASH OF KINGS”, chapter 51, she tells him a story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose: "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak. "North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.' "Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain." (A Clash of Kings – Jon VI) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Right next in the following chapter 52, Sansa has her first flowering. This is the chapter where Sansa gets her first period and its now “fit to bear children to the King.” "The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You've had your first flowering, no more." Sansa had never felt less flowery. "My lady mother told me, but I... I thought it would be different.""Different how?""I don't know. Less... less messy, and more magical.” Queen Cersei laughed. "Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman's life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you'll learn that soon enough... and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all." She took a sip of milk. "So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?" "It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded," said Sansa, "and to bear children for the king." ……. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?" "Everyone wants to be loved." "I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same." (A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV) --------------------------------------------------------- In the chapter 52, Sansa gets her period for the first time. She is taken to see Cersei who uses the moment to give Sansa womanly advice about love. She warns Sansa that love is dangerous and make us weaker. The following chapter of the book is JON VII. ------------------------------------------------------------------- “Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?” “Everyone wants to be loved.” “I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.” (A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the end of chapter Cersei warns Sansa about love and how dangerous it can be. The following chapter of the book is also JON VII. George really wanted us to picture Jon, Sansa and the Blue Winter Rose tale all together. For me this is one of the biggest clues that not only Jon and Sansa will marry but also, its their child that will continue House Stark. ---------------------------------------------------------------- A STORM OF SWORDS - THE FALLING SNOW In A storm of Swords, George used the prologue of the book to foreshadow Jon and Sansa romance, using the snow to symbolize Jon Snow. In the two paragraphs under, Chett will lament that heavy snow has ruined his plans for desertion and that Jon Snow and Sam stole his comfortable position as Maester Aemon’s steward: and that Jon Snow stole his position. “He could feel tears freezing to his cheeks. It isn’t fair, he wanted to scream. Snow would ruin everything he’d worked for, all his careful plans. It was a heavy fall, thick white flakes coming down all about him. How would they find their food caches in the snow, or the game trail they meant to follow east? They won’t need Dywen nor Bannen to hunt us down neither, not if we’re tracking through fresh snow. And snow hid the shape of the ground, especially by night. A horse could stumble over a root, break a leg on a stone. We’re done, he realized. Done before we began. We’re lost. There’d be no lord’s life for the leechman’s son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns. Only a wildling’s sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. The snow’s taken it all from me … the bloody snow …” “Snow had ruined him once before. Snow and his pet pig.” (ASOS Prologue) -------------------------------------------- And later we have Jon Snow introducing himself as “the snow”…… “The singer rose to his feet. "I’m Mance Rayder,” he said as he put aside the lute. “And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell.” ( A Storm of Swords – Jon I) --------------------------------------------------------------- Then comes Sansa’s chapter at the end of the book, where she will feel snow falling down her lips and touching her almost like a lover…….. Snow was falling on the Eyrie. Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams. (A Storm of Swords - Sansa VIII) ------------------------------------------------- A FEAST FOR CROWS - SANSA FIRST LOVE In A FEAST FOR CROWS, chapter 23, we have Sansa playing the role of Alayne Stone, Littlefinger bastard daughter. In this chapter Sansa remembers Lord Yohn Royce son, Ser Wayman Royce and how she fell madly in love with him when he visited Winterfell on his way to take the black on the Nights Watch. If we go back to the prologue of the first book, we will find out that surprising, Ser Waymar physical description is identical of Jon Snow. George is trying to tell us that Sansa will probably be physical attracted to Jon Snow once she is reunited with him later in the story. "Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw . . . he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney." - A FEAST FOR CROWS, Alayne I ------------------------------------------------------------ Waymar Royce is described as follows. Notice how similar this description is to Jon. Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. A GAME OF THRONES, Prologue --------------------------------------------------------------- Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. - A GAME OF THRONES, Bran I ---------------------------------------------------------------- JON SNOW BECOMING SANSA'S HERO “Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. **That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”** - ( A Game of Thrones – Sansa III) She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once, but none of them came. She called for the heroes from the songs, **for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, but no one heard.** (A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV) They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”** A Storm of Swords – Jon II Notice how Sansa's heros match with with the ones Jon's used to pretend to be as a child. “Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. A game of Thrones – Sansa VI "I will not hang him," said Jon. "Bring him here." "Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw. A dance of Dragons – Jon II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THEIR DREAMS COMPLETING EACH OTHERS Dreams of home and family “She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. "If I give him Sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as Valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.” A STORM OF SWORDS, Sansa II “I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decide to live his life on the wall. I could name him Robb”..- A STORM OF SWORDS, Jon XII Rebuilding Winterfell…… The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. A Storm of Swords - Jon XII -------------------------------------------------- There is so much foreshadow for this relationship that I always shake my head when people say there is nothing in the books about this romance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 “I’ve wrestled with [the issue of fan speculation online], because I do want to surprise my readers. I hate predictable fiction as a reader, I don’t want to write predictable fiction. I want to surprise and delight my reader and take them in directions they didn’t see coming … At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I’d planted in the books and came to the right solution. So what do I do then? Do I change it? I wrestled with that issue, and I came to the conclusion that changing it would be a disaster, because the clues were there. You can’t do that, so I’m just going to go ahead. Some of my readers who don’t read the boards, which thankfully there are hundreds of thousands of them, will still be surprised and other readers will say: ‘see, I said that four years ago, I’m smarter than you guys.” - GRRM, 2014 “I like to surprise; but I also like to foreshadow.” - GRRM, 2001 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think many of these examples below fit the criteria for “extremely subtle” and “obscure,” as the author describes above. “Glory to your betrothed! ...he is the dragon's heir" (Sansa I, ACOK): In Sansa’s first chapter of this book, her betrothed is called the “dragon’s heir.” This is who Jon actually is in the story. The fact that this opens Sansa’s chapters in Clash is notable because in Jon’s first chapter, he and Mormont discuss Targaryen inheritance and the raven calls him “king.” The Ashford tourney + Maidenpool tourney: a theory that the champions at the Ashford tourney reflect Sansa’s suitors: Baratheon, Tyrell, Lannister, Hardyng, Targaryen. GRRM wrote the Hedge Knight in 1998, long before a Hardyng appears in the main story. He must have known was doing when he creates Harry the Heir: it is to parallel this Humphrey Hardyng. Many people ask “where’s the Arryn?” in the lists. He’s there. When Humphrey is introduced, he’s described as beating a Lord Arryn, among others who all connect to Sansa: “He won a great melee at Maidenpool last year, ser, and overthrew Ser Donnel of Duskendale and the Lords Arryn and Royce in the lists.” (The Hedge Knight). Maidenpool is a Sansa reference with Florian/Jonquil. Duskendale is a reference to Dontos. Royce is even a reference to Ser Waymar in the Night’s Watch, Sansa’s first crush! So all of Sansa’s suitors and/or love interests are covered in this story surrounding these two tourneys. All that’s missing is the Targaryen. “My sister is said to have taken a bear for her lover...I’ve not seen any giant bears.” He gave Jon a long, searching look (Jon I, ACOK). The long, searching look is a curious line, like the author is drawing the reader’s attention to it. If gifting a sword to a favored son (Daemon Blackfyre) is significant, Jon could be considered a Mormont since he has the Mormont sword. This suggests that any bear mentions in Sansa’s chapters could allude to Jon, like the Bear and the Maiden Fair, which is sung when Sansa’s next betrothal is being discussed. This fits the criteria for "extremely subtle." “That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.” (Sansa III, AGOT). If Joffrey isn’t...then who is? Prince Aemon the Dragonknight is who Jon pretended to be when he was a young boy playing with Robb. The rumors that Aemon and Naerys had an affair continue to come up. This affair is also brought up by Mormont in Jon I, ACOK. Sansa calls for Ser Aemon to help her when she’s having a nightmare, and it is noted that this story, along with Florian and Jonquil, is one of her favorites. Florian and Jonquil. Florian/Jonquil is firmly associated with Sansa. Sansa interprets this Age of Heroes legend as a great romance: “I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian.” It’s curious how the full legend is withheld. We only get bits and pieces. We know that Florian met Jonquil bathing in the pools at Maidenpool (this could be a personal reference to the author meeting his wife in a swimming pool/sauna). This legend has details that point to Jon, since a dragon and a giant are mentioned in the Florian/Jonquil puppet show at Ashford. Sansa and Jon are both linked to giants (Jon directly, Sansa through prophecy). The only other couple that is sung about as “Florian and Jonquil” is Alysanne and Jaehaerys. Jon could be a reference to Florian, as a knight - “black knights ot the Wall” - and as a fool - “You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Lies before a heart tree. This relates to Florian/Jonquil above. In ACOK, Jon is at the godswood in Whitetree, and says: “My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying.” In the next Sansa chapter, we see “Florian” lying before a heart tree: “Ser Dontos placed a hand on the gnarled bole of the heart tree. He was shaking, she saw. “I vow, with your father’s gods as witness, that I shall send you home.” He swore. A solemn oath, before the gods.” The author could be intentionally destroying her romantic notions about this legend, before she lives them out with Jon. “Brave gentle and strong.” (Sansa III, AGOT). No other suitor fits these qualities that Ned wishes for Sansa, except Jon. Jon is directly called brave, a good fighter, and a strong swimmer. He is told he has a noble heart and he gently pushes Zei away when she tries to kiss him. If considering items in a series as a unique descriptor (doesn’t happen too often), Aemon calls Jon “valiant, loyal, resourceful.” The author can’t exactly have Aemon use the same words...there goes the subtlety. The original outline. In the original draft, the author intended for Jon and Arya to fall in love with each other: "...until [Arya] realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night’s Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon’s true parentage is finally revealed in the last book." One would assume that they didn’t act on their feelings when they thought they were related, but the author did write in Jon’s parentage reveal as a positive plot development (meaning, less incesty). Lord Byron. The author is a big fan of the poet, and he has called Jon a Byronic hero. Byron has an interesting backstory: he fell in love with his half-sister Augusta and it haunted him for years. It’s said that he wished so fervently that they could be together, that he wrote about this desire in a poem called the Bride of Abydos, in which siblings think they are forbidden to be together only to discover that they are actually cousins who can marry. There is a Lord Byron who is a hedge knight who Sansa meets in the Vale and he calls her beautiful. There is a Byron Swann who also fought a dragon. This definitely fits “obscure.” "You will marry a king and rule his castle"...“No, that’s Sansa.” (Eddard V, AGOT). This fits the criteria for subtle by having Arya identify Sansa as the one to meet Ned’s prediction. This could also be remnants of the old outline. “Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head.” (Sansa VI, AGOT). I know that there is some controversy over whether Jon beheaded or hung Slynt in GRRM’s first drafts, but whatever the case, Jon does fulfill Sansa’s wish. Jon proves Littlefinger’s words - “there are no heroes” - wrong. Jon/Garlan parallels. Essentially, Garlan and Jon are doing the exact same moves in their training, both fighting 3-against-1. Sansa remarks on Garlan’s prowess and Loras replies that he is better with the lance, but Garlan is better with the sword, which is exactly how Jon talks himself and Robb (both Garlan and Jon are the ones better with the sword). Jon/Willas parallels. Jon and Willas are both described as having a “bad leg” in the same book. Sansa’s desire for Willas and puppies is code for “wolf pups,” which is what Tyrion calls Robb’s potential children. Sansa learns Willas is into falconry and can fly an eagle. In the next chapter, Jon gets attacked by an eagle. Willas is described as being knowledgeable about the stars; Jon is shown to be. Jon/Loras parallels. After Joffrey, Loras is the only man in the story whom Sansa is attracted to. You can tell: she blushes, stammers, her eyes are only for him, her tummy flutters when he is around. Loras is called an “arrogant pup” and Jon is called an “insolent pup.” Loras thoughtlessly hands a red rose to Sansa and it hurts her to realize he doesn’t remember giving it to her; however, Jon wishes he could give Ygritte a flower and romance her at Winterfell. One could assume Ygritte wouldn’t value things like that, but Sansa would. Bael the Bard and the Rose of Winterfell. Similar to the above, the mention of roses should pique the reader’s attention because of the association of blue roses with Stark maidens, winter, and Winterfell. The blue flower in the HotU is mentioned, then in the next Jon chapter, the story of Bael is introduced, which is immediately followed by a Sansa chapter, which is followed by another Jon chapter. In back-to-back chapters, Jon holds his sword to Ygritte’s neck, and the Hound holds his sword to Sansa’s neck. Later, Sansa is called the “Roadside Rose.” The Tyrells and Baelish (Sansa references) suggests some kind of deception going on with the “blue flower in a wall of ice.” The Tyrells wanted to “Bael” Sansa by taking a Stark daughter away from the Lannisters, but Baelish takes her to the Vale. Even roses and a wall are mentioned together, when Cersei thinks Sansa absconded with Tyrion: “By now the both of them are safe in Highgarden, hidden away behind a wall of roses.” Quentyn and Arianne. Since the World of Ice and Fire confirms that Dorne is supposed to be a mirror-universe to the North, Arianne and Quentyn are important to watch. Arriane, as the eldest daughter and heir to Sunspear, would be in a similar to position to Sansa who is eldest daughter and heir to Winterfell. Arianne is speculated to marry her cousin Aegon - if it happens this would foreshadow Jon and Sansa marrying as cousins. Arianne was supposed to marry the "real" Targaryen heir - Sansa could do the same (but Jon has the better claim). Arianne and Daemon Sand had a romantic relationship, but they cannot be together - this would foreshadow Jon and Sansa when Jon is still a bastard and her brother. Quentyn had a crush on the daughter(s) of the Lord he was fostered with, the Yronwoods - this would also mirror Jon and Sansa, since Jon is “fostered” at Winterfell. Quentyn and Arianne didn’t grow up close; Jon and Sansa did not either. Frogs. Wait frogs? Yes, frogs. Any mention of frogs should be scrutinized in the text because of the frog prince legend. The spoiled, bratty princess who learns to look beyond appearances and eventually finds a prince when she least expects it is a trope being played with Sansa. The frog becomes a prince/princess with a spell or a kiss. Maggy the Frog (“magic frog”) involves Rhaegar and a younger, more beautiful Queen. Meria the Yellow Toad of Dorne resisted Targaryen conquerors (Sansa could take this role for the North). Toad in the Night’s Watch likes singing (so does Sansa). The frog-eaters are home to Howland Reed, who likely knows about Jon's parentage. And Quentyn is directly linked to the frog prince legend. When he reveals himself to Dany as a prince, Dany is unimpressed. The trope could be subverted for her but played straight for Sansa. What’s interesting is that GRRM chose to have Janos Slynt described as frog-faced. This could be another clue linking Jon/Sansa in the text, as described above. "I have no need of blushing maidens.” / “willowy creature who sits up in a tower...” These lines in ADWD illustrate Jon’s bias. He’s not simply saying, "warrior women and feminine women are equal, but I prefer the former." He’s saying that feminine women are useless to him. We are not supposed to agree. When the author writes women like Catelyn, Alysanne, and Margaery as being very useful, he will be proved wrong. Tyrion thinks Sansa would have been extremely useful as a queen for Joffrey, and calls it a “waste.” In ADWD, Jon says this line about blushing maidens/willowy creatures in towers and Sansa is shown to be blushing at least 4 times in AFFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Interesting, but the thing is I don’t think Jon’s parentage will ever be believed by most, so I don’t think he will ever be king. In The Accursed Kings, John the 1st is replaced before being revealed to the court by John the bastard in order to avoid a possible poisoning plot, but the plot does happen and the decoy dies in front of everyone. To protect John the 1st, they don’t reveal the ploy and he is handed back to the wetnurse and raised as a bastard, until he finds out decades later that he is actually the true king of France. But no one believes him and he is locked up and dies in a dungeon. I think this is sort of where Jon’s story is going. “Power resides where men believe it resides.” fAegon will take and keep rAegon(Jon)’s place, and while Jon will be the hero to the readers he will be remembered as a bastard, Night Watch vow breaker, friend of Wildlings, executed for his treason and resurrected by a child-burning red priest, stole Sansa’s claim to Winterfell, consort to mad Daenerys the conqueror, and pretender to the Iron Throne. I think at the end of the story Sansa marries fAegon (since I think Arianne would die at Storm’s End), out of need to keep her family’s claim to the little that will remain of it. All you mention would just become more tragic, fuelling both characters’ desires but being unable to fulfill them due their own respective situation. Yes I believe they are bringing in someone who will take the name Aegon from Jon in S8 and win the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xemi Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 9 hours ago, Error-504 said: Yeah, because all brilliant stories end with the marriage of a main character (Sansa) to someone that isn't even a secondary player. Just stop, Sansa isn't going to marry the leader of the golden company, Harry Strickland is dragon fodder. Don't feed the troll, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Xemi said: Don't feed the troll, please. Why call someone a troll for that? Yes I believe they cast Marc Rissmann to play “Aegon” in S8, that doesn’t make me a troll just because you don’t like it. He will just steal Jon’s claim and manage to do so because the people will be willing to believe what is more convenient to them rather than the truth. I think the GC saves KL from the only threat they will actually know of which is Dany and/or her dragon(s), not the NK, so their leader will be seen as the hero over Ned’s bastard. Varys is betraying Dany and it won’t be for Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juligen Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Jon and Sansa marriage foreshadowing In the first book A GAME OF THRONES, chapter 4 Eddard I, we have King Robert arriving at Winterfell and asking to visit Lyanna tomb in the crypts of the castle. While there King Robert decides to ask for Sansa’s hand in marriage for his son prince Joffrey. This is the chapter where Sansa and Joffrey become officially betrothed to each other and their Royal engagement its made official. The very next chapter? JON. This is also the chapter where Jon Snow will get drunk in the Feats for the king and ask uncle Ben to join the NightsWatch. https://66.media.tumblr.com/050d26f7df8850709003007a38156ab9/tumblr_inline_pk2hdcyRZF1sgp768_1280.png In A CLASH OF KINGS chapter 52, SANSA IV, Sansa will get her period and be finally “fit to bear children to the king”. Cersei then tries, as best as she can, to be a mother figure to Sansa in this very special moment and gives her a womanly advice. She tells her that love is a dangerous feeling that makes us all weaker and it should wiser for her to love only her children. Once again we have a chapter discussing Sansa future marriage to a king and the following chapter is JON VII. https://66.media.tumblr.com/b52e6aeba282d7fcdadd629435ca126d/tumblr_inline_pk2fojKkTb1sgp768_640.jpg In A STORM OF SWORDS, chapter 7, we have Lady Ollenna inviting Sansa for dinner and during the meeting makes a marriage proposal to Sansa. She plans to marry the heir of Winterfell to her oldest grandson, Willas Tyrel. While this meeting is happening, George made sure to have the singers playing the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair". The next chapter? JON again. https://66.media.tumblr.com/6e7c7e851be33252393651bf41bcbc68/tumblr_inline_pp6p2oSWkb1sgp768_1280.png Finally on A STORM OF SWORDS, we have the famous chapter 68, Sansa VI, where she laments that no one will ever marry her for love, its only her name and Winterfell they all want. https://66.media.tumblr.com/041bb6db6cda332f80bcb7438b9859d9/tumblr_inline_pk2fpw7CwN1sgp768_1280.png Do you see why I have very little doubt they will marry for love? That much foreshadow its not a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 I think it is just building up to her accepting that no one will marry her for love, to shed the idea she had of what a queen is supposed to be when she was a child, and assume what it truly means to be a queen, something she will be ready for after all the trials she has gone through. She won't wait for a prince charming, she will grow out of that, and when she is married because someone wants to use her, she will be the one truly ruling. Jon on the other hand is possibly the opposite: he will fall because he will hold onto feelings he has for someone which he can't let go. The assumption Sansa would marry out of love would mean she learned nothing, I really don't think that's her arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juligen Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, NonoNono said: I think it is just building up to her accepting that no one will marry her for love, to shed the idea she had of what a queen is supposed to be when she was a child, and assume what it truly means to be a queen, something she will be ready for after all the trials she has gone through. She won't wait for a prince charming, she will grow out of that, and when she is married because someone wants to use her, she will be the one truly ruling. Every single time her future marriage is discussed we have a JON chapter following it. It can not be more clear. George is literally telling us who will be her final husband. The leaps people do to not see it the foreshadow of this pairing is quite amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, prettylongclaw said: Every single time her future marriage is discussed we have a JON chapter following it. It can not be more clear. George is literally telling us who will be her final husband. The leaps people do to not see it the foreshadow of this pairing is quite amazing. Could be, but I really don't think it will be out of love at all. Jon and Sansa marrying each other to rule and love each other doesn't fit at all with a bittersweet ending. All it does to me is show that they both want the same thing, but not that they will reach for what they want once they are in a position to do so. It is actually quite typical that people don't go for what they want once presented with it. George mentions it about Tyrion for example, he keeps moving the goalpost and keeps losing more in the process. I'm sure Sansa and Jon marrying each other will be a choice they will have to consider, and ultimately reject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error-504 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 2 hours ago, prettylongclaw said: Every single time her future marriage is discussed we have a JON chapter following it. It can not be more clear. George is literally telling us who will be her final husband. The leaps people do to not see it the foreshadow of this pairing is quite amazing. So what? That means nothing. The two didn't even get along. As for foreshadowing, what we do know is every time Sansa gets married, or about to be married, it ends tragically on the show. Had GRMM planned on her eventually having a marriage of importance, I do not think the show would have handled her the way they did. In that regard, it is Arya, not Sansa, that has been much more clearly foreshadowed. “You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” Now that is what you call foreshadowing, not some silly "this came after that" chapter in the book nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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