Will Jon and Sansa be the fulfillment of the coming together of Ice and Fire?

[Guest]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

No, it's not foreshadowing, if anything its the opposite.  It reminds us that Sansa always felt Jon the bastard was beneath her, so she wouldn't call him a real brother, only a half brother.  It reminds us what a snob she was, and that she had little affection for him ever.  She almost never thinks of him during the course of 5 books, as opposed to her sister or her other brother who think of him often and fondly.  

Not everything has to be a trick in literature.  Things can be straightforward and obvious if done well.  There may still be a twist coming on fire and ice, but I doubt it, and even if there is, it surely is not Sansa and Jon, two Northerners who grew up together as brother and sister marrying to rule them all.  That would be even more bat s** than Jon and Dany together at the end.

We can agree to disagree, GRRM will never take the easy route and he has alot of pages for Jon and Sansa to develop a relationship over shared pain of the family, and the broader story.  I also think the foreshadowing in the Hedge Knight is exactly the type of thing GRRM has done many other times - it means something.

As for Jon and Dany - I agree, theirs being the happy ending is something GRRM would never write. As noted earlier, I think Dany dies but has a kid.

GREAT writing can be straightforward - but that isnt this author.

[T and A]

17 hours ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

...and being attacked by someone who calls themselves "T and A" which normally has a condescending sexual meaning is, well, fitting for the "old" Westeros forum. Thanks for bringing back childish sexual names, and factless posts.

Well played!

It is short for "Targaryens and Arryns". I was a fan of the old theory, that the Arryns were descendents of the Targaryens (or at least Valyrians), who tried to colonialize Westeros before the arrival of the Andals. You can check out that theory...Now, of course it is clear that the Show atleast won't prove that theory...

[kissdbyfire]

There’s no foreshadowing for Jonsa, only wishful thinking. 

[OldGimletEye]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s no foreshadowing for Jonsa, only wishful thinking. 

I have been on this board long enough, that anytime somebody mentions the word "foreshadowing",  I start sweating bullets as I know I'll read something with such a long chain of inferences, that is often very convoluted, that I'll be left confused, bewildered, and my head hurting.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

I have been on this board long enough, that anytime somebody mentions the word "foreshadowing",  I start sweating bullets as I know I'll read something with such a long chain of inferences, that is often very convoluted, that I'll be left confused, bewildered, and my head hurting.

Well, GRRM does love to drop subtle hints.

I linked to a video on page 1 instead of writing it all out.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Yeah he likes to foreshadow with extremely subtle and obscure clues, as I quoted him in my first post. 

In an interview in which Cogman was asked about the ending, Cogman said he thinks S8 "honors very much what [George R.R. Martin] set out to do, which is flipping this kind of story on its head."

In another interview Cogman was asked "Do you think there are central heroes in Game of Thrones?" And he pauses, thinks, then says "Sure, I mean, you can look at it, step away, and go well you know, 'Jon and Sans--' ... (pause like he corrects himself) or Jon and Tyrion and Dany..."

Why correct himself? I think what GRRM is doing is making it look like Jon, Tyrion, and Dany will all work together to defeat the generic fantasy evil ("this kind of story"), then flip that story on its head. It could go several ways but one way is by making Dany the surprise villain (the hero from the other side). "Jon and Sans--" the couple who are subtly foreshadowed all along, fulfill the Pact of Ice and Fire.

I'm going to post more of (what I think) is foreshadowing soon.

[Juligen]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s no foreshadowing for Jonsa, only wishful thinking. 

yes there is. But i wont waste my time posting here because you all will just say its reaching. Season 8 will start in 2 weeks and they will reveal the romance between Jon and Sansa. After that, I will post all the foreshadow of the books and tv show. 

 

But, hey, I am just a delusional stan.

[Cas Stark]

11 hours ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Well, GRRM does love to drop subtle hints.

I linked to a video on page 1 instead of writing it all out.

His hints usually aren't that subtle, this is where people go off the rails and start thinking the color of the server's outfit is foreshadowing, or start stringing together random words that are used and think that is foreshadowing.  The things we know are true, like Jon's parents, weren't that subtle, or the foreshadowing for Robb's death, was there all along.  But, we'll see in two months what kind of ending he gave to the showrunners and work backwards from there I guess.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

His hints usually aren't that subtle, this is where people go off the rails and start thinking the color of the server's outfit is foreshadowing, or start stringing together random words that are used and think that is foreshadowing.  The things we know are true, like Jon's parents, weren't that subtle, or the foreshadowing for Robb's death, was there all along.  But, we'll see in two months what kind of ending he gave to the showrunners and work backwards from there I guess.

Ya, I agree with you that this a story that requires character development and time (Jonsa) to make it work thus D and D may not do it. I think we get the "true" book ending in the show - namely who wins and maybe how - but the character stories may not end anywhere close to where they end in the books.

[Cas Stark]

47 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Ya, I agree with you that this a story that requires character development and time (Jonsa) to make it work thus D and D may not do it. I think we get the "true" book ending in the show - namely who wins and maybe how - but the character stories may not end anywhere close to where they end in the books.

That doesn't make sense to me, the showrunners and the author have always used language about the journey being different but ending at the same place.  So, the idea that you seem to have, which is that Jon and Sansa will end together in the books but not the show, seems misguided in the extreme, and as if you are building in a ready made excuse for when it doesn't happen on the show.  For the main characters, I can't imagine the end will be different in any substantial way.  

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That doesn't make sense to me, the showrunners and the author have always used language about the journey being different but ending at the same place.  So, the idea that you seem to have, which is that Jon and Sansa will end together in the books but not the show, seems misguided in the extreme, and as if you are building in a ready made excuse for when it doesn't happen on the show.  For the main characters, I can't imagine the end will be different in any substantial way.  

Really? I think you are being naive. A show that has skipped over entire characters, thousands of pages of story, lacks character development, and has literally hundreds of missing characters CANNOT have the same character endings as the books - even the main characters. If you cant develop characters and have them truly change in a sensible way then you cant do the same story.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That doesn't make sense to me, the showrunners and the author have always used language about the journey being different but ending at the same place.  So, the idea that you seem to have, which is that Jon and Sansa will end together in the books but not the show, seems misguided in the extreme, and as if you are building in a ready made excuse for when it doesn't happen on the show.  For the main characters, I can't imagine the end will be different in any substantial way.  

And that says nothing about the fact that with six episodes left they will have trouble even doing the battles and the dragon fights. In the books GRRM can do so much more AND have a thousand pages after the NK dies, in the show I bet we get 15-30 minutes after Jon kills the NK.

[Cas Stark]

29 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Really? I think you are being naive. A show that has skipped over entire characters, thousands of pages of story, lacks character development, and has literally hundreds of missing characters CANNOT have the same character endings as the books - even the main characters. If you cant develop characters and have them truly change in a sensible way then you cant do the same story.

The main characters are the same, 100% the same.  The major points that have happened in the first 5 books are probably 90% the same.  So, yes, absolutely, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Rickon, Jon, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion, Dany, Brienne, Theon can call have the same ending and the same story. The showrunners have said it, GRRM has said it.

 If Selmy dies in a different way, it's not a big deal really, because he dies.  If Aegon and Arienne fail, then, who needed them in the first place?  

[Cas Stark]

30 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

And that says nothing about the fact that with six episodes left they will have trouble even doing the battles and the dragon fights. In the books GRRM can do so much more AND have a thousand pages after the NK dies, in the show I bet we get 15-30 minutes after Jon kills the NK.

That's irrelevant.  The show has had the ending that GRRM gave them for a decade.  They had the 'what are the details' meeting almost 5 years ago. The fact that GRRM can write thousands of pages of filler is not important in determining the odds that two main characters will have a different ending in the show than the books that are not being written.  

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's irrelevant.  The show has had the ending that GRRM gave them for a decade.  They had the 'what are the details' meeting almost 5 years ago. The fact that GRRM can write thousands of pages of filler is not important in determining the odds that two main characters will have a different ending in the show than the books that are not being written.  

And has GRRM has made clear - he doesnt write when he knows how it all goes, that bores him. That fact alone means the broad outline provided by GRRM may, or may not, be how it ends. He even said that in his original proposal letter decades ago. GRRM has also said that characters who live in the show may die in the books, and vice versa. I think I go with GRRM - I just send him good vibes in hopes he finishes.

[Ser Gareth]

36 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

And has GRRM has made clear - he doesnt write when he knows how it all goes, that bores him. That fact alone means the broad outline provided by GRRM may, or may not, be how it ends. He even said that in his original proposal letter decades ago. GRRM has also said that characters who live in the show may die in the books, and vice versa. I think I go with GRRM - I just send him good vibes in hopes he finishes.

The sheer amount of foreshadowing, visions etc. contradict what GRRM verbally says.  As does him admitting that at least one person figured out the ending after ACOK.

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

The main characters are the same, 100% the same.  The major points that have happened in the first 5 books are probably 90% the same.  So, yes, absolutely, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Rickon, Jon, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion, Dany, Brienne, Theon can call have the same ending and the same story. The showrunners have said it, GRRM has said it.

 If Selmy dies in a different way, it's not a big deal really, because he dies.  If Aegon and Arienne fail, then, who needed them in the first place?  

Unless GRRM decides to re-write it, which I believe he will.  I don't think he has done an awful lot on TWOW for a few years.  He is waiting for the TV series to end so that he can work out how to redirect the story to make it as different as possible.  It's his last shot at ensuring the books remain culturally relevant.

[Cas Stark]

15 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Unless GRRM decides to re-write it, which I believe he will.  I don't think he has done an awful lot on TWOW for a few years.  He is waiting for the TV series to end so that he can work out how to redirect the story to make it as different as possible.  It's his last shot at ensuring the books remain culturally relevant.

He's certainly capable of such an action, that would mean he not only made the HBO deal in bad faith, yeah, I know they don't and will never care, but that every time in 20 years he has said he knows the ending and it hasn't changed was false.  It's irrelevant though, since odds he even finishes Winds, let alone the whole series, get smaller every year.  And, to be honest, based on the last two books, his judgement seems to have deteriorated, so I feel pretty confident that the 'end' that 1990's George came up with is going to be a lot better than any end that 21st century George comes up with.  But, that's my own opinion.

[Guest]

My last post on this - knowing the ending at an outline level leaves one a whole lot of artistic license on how to get there. It also means GRRM comments on alot being left AFTER the final battle in LOtR likely means a whole lot of pages, and story, after that in ASoIaF.

It is also interesting to me that GRRM turned the chance to be in Season 8 - austensibly to write - but that makes little sense when he still does all these international appearances and CONS. Maybe all is not well in the relationship.

[teej6]

12 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Unless GRRM decides to re-write it, which I believe he will.  I don't think he has done an awful lot on TWOW for a few years.  He is waiting for the TV series to end so that he can work out how to redirect the story to make it as different as possible.  It's his last shot at ensuring the books remain culturally relevant.

He’s said several times that he knows the ending of the main characters and that he won’t change it despite the fact that his readers have guessed it. Now, I don’t know if D&D spoiling his ending in their horrible and ham fisted way will change his mind, and he’ll decide to change some or all of the ending.

As for Jon not ending up with Sansa in the show and ending up with Sansa in the books, I find this argument a non-starter. All this so-called foreshadowing in the books of Jon ending up with Sansa, is just grasping at straws. The whole Jon and Sansa thing mainly started within the show viewership, I don’t remember it being a main point of discussion/ theory among the book readership.