Will Jon and Sansa be the fulfillment of the coming together of Ice and Fire?

[Cas Stark]

19 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I think it is more likely she'd end up with Tyrion.  If someone did crack the ending from the first two books then Tyrion's shadow being kingly and Arya telling Eddard that Sansa will marry a King, would foreshadow the possibility they end up on the Iron Throne.  Maybe not at the very end, but at some point....

I thought for a long time due to Lady's death that Sansa would not go North again, that she certainly would not be Lady of Winterfell or the person who would rebuild House Stark, that whatever her destiny it would be in the South. But the show has telegraphed pretty hard that she will be Lady of Winterfell...so what that might mean for the books that aren't being written I don't know.  I can't see Sansa as queen of the seven kingdoms and I don't think she will end up with Tyrion, although it's possible...that would show she learned her lesson about surface attractiveness, but what about Tyrion learning his own lesson? It doesn't seem to track for me they would end up together again.

[Rose of Red Lake]

People aren't picking up how Sansa wants to go home. 

She's seducing Harry so she can go home. 

Why did you think she'd be stuck in the south forever?

[NonoNono]

So did I miss the part where someone justifies why Sansa would marry Jon? Who would be left to rule Winterfell? Arya? Bran? Bran isn't even Bran. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

I guess if Winterfell is destroyed, the Starks would have no place to rule, their house would be extinct, unless either one marries the one who has the throne. But why would both take it? And why wouldn't they go back to Winterfell, they can always rebuild?

Tell me why they marry, and where they rule.

edit: Tyrion ruling; how do people come to accept him? He's a demon-monkey-kinslaying-kingslayer to them.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

I think it's definitely a possibility, we will see what happens.

[Ser Gareth]

On 4/6/2019 at 6:17 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

People aren't picking up how Sansa wants to go home. 

She's seducing Harry so she can go home. 

Why did you think she'd be stuck in the south forever?

She's seducing Harry because Littlefinger is telling her to do so and is playing her like a fiddle.  When she finally goes "home" it would have been to ride in and rescue the day in the Battle of the Bastards, like in the show.

Sansa's final destination, if not death (which was heavily alluded to years ago), is going to be the opposite of what she dreamed as a kid and I don't think she has a happy ending in store for her.  Or at least her fans.

[Kajjo]

On 3/28/2019 at 7:05 PM, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Jon is now a known Targ, so Dany and him getting together doesnt do it anymore. Jon and his cousins ("sisters") would seem to be the easiest way to fulfill the prophecy.

Jon is NOT a Targaryen instead of a Stark, now. He is BOTH. He is Ice and Fire, both Targaryen and Stark to equal parts. His is the Song of Ice and Fire.

It makes no sense to marry a 1/2 Targaryen and 1/2 Stark to a 1/2 Stark and 1/2 Tully to argue for Ice and Fire. 

Which prophecy you talk about anyway? The "prince that was promised" says nothing about Ice and Fire in the show, but about waking dragons from stone and defeating the danger coming from the North. Other prophecies like Cersei's destiny or Daenerys "House of the Undying" visions are personal destiny.

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

She's seducing Harry because Littlefinger is telling her to do so and is playing her like a fiddle.  When she finally goes "home" it would have been to ride in and rescue the day in the Battle of the Bastards, like in the show.

Sansa's final destination, if not death (which was heavily alluded to years ago), is going to be the opposite of what she dreamed as a kid and I don't think she has a happy ending in store for her.  Or at least her fans.

You think she's a robot following orders with no end goal? 

He explicitly tells her her marriage to Harry is how she goes home.

That's what she wants. She doesn't want Harry. The entire reason she trusted Dontos is because he promised to send her home. She thinks she has no other way. 

Yeah...Sansa's dead. I'm sure Sophie went out and got a "Pack Survives" tattoo right after her death scene in the show. 

 

 

[Kajjo]

13 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah...Sansa's dead. I'm sure Sophie went out and got a "Pack Survives" tattoo right after her death scene in the show. 

Yes, that's a good point, too. Sansa and Arya will survive, I am pretty sure.

14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He explicitly tells her her marriage to Harry is how she goes home.

That's right. But I don't see the point to focus on the book in this forum.

[NonoNono]

I’ll throw in my 2 cents: read Arya and Sansa’s first chapters. It’s all about how Sansa doesn’t like the north, doesn’t like Jon (“Half brother”), how much Arya likes the north and Jon and so on.

Sansa will betray Jon and live away from the north. Arya will be on bad terms with her when she has to save Jon’s life from her sister’s betrayal. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Some quotes:

Quote

 

"After reading the scripts I went back and watched season 1 again, because so much of it refers back to that season," Williams shared. "There are so many scenes that will look similar. And also I watched just to remind myself of the arc I've taken already. I wanted Arya to go full circle and try for some kind of normalcy like when she was younger."

"Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard."

"He's our brother," Arya said, much too loudly. [...] "Our half brother," Sansa corrected, soft and precise.

The only thing that scared her about today was Arya. Arya had a way of ruining everything.

"The wheelhouse doesn't even have windows, you can't see a thing." "What could you want to see? Sansa said, annoyed. [...] "It's all just fields and farms and holdfasts." "It's not." Arya said stubbornly. "If you came with us sometimes, you'd see."

You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

 

 

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You think she's a robot following orders with no end goal? 

He explicitly tells her her marriage to Harry is how she goes home.

That's what she wants. She doesn't want Harry. The entire reason she trusted Dontos is because he promised to send her home. She thinks she has no other way. 

Yeah...Sansa's dead. I'm sure Sophie went out and got a "Pack Survives" tattoo right after her death scene in the show. 

 

 

No, I think she's a fictional character and the fans desires have no bearing on what the author has planned for her.

I'm not sure she'll end up dead or not (I have always felt she'll end up as the Queen but the opposite of her as a child, e.g. she'll marry someone unattractive for political reasons and be cynical, bitter and more like Cersei than the perfect Queen she thought she'd be).

As for the pack survives tattoo, it means nothing because we don't know her meaning.  It could simply mean that filming has finished, the cast will disperse but in her eyes will always be a "pack" that survives beyond the lifetime of the TV show.

[Kajjo]

29 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

As for the pack survives tattoo, it means nothing because we don't know her meaning.  It could simply mean that filming has finished, the cast will disperse but in her eyes will always be a "pack" that survives beyond the lifetime of the TV show.

I agree with that, too. "The pack survives" is a nice motton for any family and a very typical quote of her role of 10 years.

Anyway, though, I believe Sansa and Arya will survive. 

[Mystical]

On 4/3/2019 at 12:49 AM, Ser Gareth said:

I always felt that Sansa had contempt and jealousy.  Which fits with what GRRM acknowledged about Lady's death being symbolic that Sansa was losing her "Starkness".  The way she kept the Knights of the Vale being on the way (how many lives did that cost?!).  Arya called it last season too and she's meant to be able to spot liars now....

And how many lives did Jon's stupidity cost? Almost all of them because he ran headfirst into an entire army. And his army was comprised of equally stupid men who thought it a great idea to abandon their entire battle plan. Don't act as if all that male stupidity is Sansa's fault. As to Arya, give me a break. Someone with that much selective and faulty memory (archery lessons, Sansa during Ned's beheading) who is also the biggest hypocrite in that WF nonsense (hello girl who didn't kill Tywin)...and Arya is your measuring stick for 'truth'? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

On 4/3/2019 at 5:29 AM, NonoNono said:

Ya Sansa is the one who essentially is the cause of her own direwolf's death, because of her lie, against her own sister in fact.

I must have missed the part where Sansa ordered Lady to be killed. Or where she killed her. Can you give me YOUR copy of the show/book please? Sansa decided to be Switzerland (which makes even more sense in the books because of alcohol etc.) and take no side. Which is huge when you consider that she was freaking groomed since she was born and just SOLD OFF, I'm sorry betrothed, to this other family that she, according to her grooming, must now be 100% faithful to. And her NOT being 100% faithful to her new family is what got her direwolf killed. That was Sansa's punishment for not adhering to her grooming, courtesy of Cersei. What did you want Sansa to do? Safe Lady? She would have needed to side 100% with Joff's story and I'm sure you and other viewers/readers would not have ripped her apart for that (/s). I bet the argument then wouldn't have been...'so she went against her family for a freaking dog'? Sansa just can't win no matter what she does. Instead of people blaming the freaking adults for grooming their children, for not watching their children...lets blame the children. And then Arya should get more blame than Sansa since it's her fault for not adhering to the system they live in and involving an innocent boy in her shenanigans which is what caused it all. But I don't blame Arya (just like I don't blame Sansa) since she is a child, I blame her epic failure of a parent (Ned).

 

As to the topic, Jon is already the fulfillment of I&F. Any other combo doesn't make much sense. J/D= Triple Fire+Ice and J/S= Double Ice+Fire.

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, Mystical said:

And how many lives did Jon's stupidity cost? Almost all of them because he ran headfirst into an entire army. And his army was comprised of equally stupid men who thought it a great idea to abandon their entire battle plan. Don't act as if all that male stupidity is Sansa's fault. As to Arya, give me a break. Someone with that much selective and faulty memory (archery lessons, Sansa during Ned's beheading) who is also the biggest hypocrite in that WF nonsense (hello girl who didn't kill Tywin)...and Arya is your measuring stick for 'truth'? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

How many lives did Jon's stupidity cost?  Loads.  The fact he even led an army there was stupid in itself.  Especially a Wildling army.

Arya is a measuring stick of "truth"?  The events you highlight took place before her training did they not?  I'm sure there is a reason for that whole spot a lie game.

The last couple of seasons she has been happy to undermine Jon.  It'll be interesting to see if it is a set up for some kind of pay off.  She's always felt she was perfect and in the right, until put in a position of helplessness.  Now she is safe again she is exhibiting a different kind of arrogance but that arrogance is there and it flares up over jealousy or when she feels she is right and being ignored.  Very Cersei like. I think there will be a twist in Sansa's story before the end and I can't help but feel it is going to dovetail with Tyrion's (who also looks likely to turn on Jon and Dany).

[teej6]

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He explicitly tells her her marriage to Harry is how she goes home.

Can you quote the line in the books where LF tells Sansa that by marrying Harrold Hardyng she can go home? You sure you’re not mixing the books and the show. LF is setting up Sansa with Harry coz Harry is Robin’s heir and he does not expect Robin to live long. There’s the whole theory about LF poisoning Robin or at least keeping him sickly. As to Sansa’s motives for courting Harry, all we know and have from the books is that she’s doing it cause LF asked her to and she knows that Harry will become Lord of the Vale if Robin dies.

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Can you quote the line in the books where LF tells Sansa that by marrying Harrold Hardyng she can go home? You sure you’re not mixing the books and the show. LF is setting up Sansa with Harry coz Harry is Robin’s heir and he does not expect Robin to live long. There’s the whole theory about LF poisoning Robin or at least keeping him sickly. As to Sansa’s motives for courting Harry, all we know and have from the books is that she’s doing it cause LF asked her to and she knows that Harry will become Lord of the Vale if Robin dies.

Quote

“and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell."

Quote

Petyr put his arm around her.  “So he is, but he is Robert’s heir as well.  Bringing Harry here was the first step in our plan, but now we need to keep him, and only you can do that."

Sansa believes Harry is the first step in the plan to win back Winterfell. I'm not mixing up books and show. He tells her his plan to take back Winterfell and restore Sansa's birthright right there. The show (really awkwardly) replaced Harry with Ramsay. 

[teej6]

14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa believes Harry is the first step in the plan to win back Winterfell. I'm not mixing up books and show. He tells her his plan to take back Winterfell and restore Sansa's birthright right there. The show (really awkwardly) replaced Harry with Ramsay. 

Alright, so he does manipulate her into thinking Harry is her ticket to ruling the Vale and eventually Winterfell. But as of now in the books, Sansa is following LF’s instructions to a T and we don’t actually see much initiative on her part. So far, she’s been led or used by others. Yes, we are shown Sansa cajoling and manipulating Robin and she has begun to understand LF’s schemes better, but she has a long way to go before she can undermine LF or get out from under his thumb. Not saying it won’t happen in the books, it most likely will eventually but as of now we haven’t been given much in terms of strategy or machinations on Sansa’s part by the author. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Alright, so he does manipulate her into thinking Harry is her ticket to ruling the Vale and eventually Winterfell. But as of now in the books, Sansa is following LF’s instructions to a T and we don’t actually see much initiative on her part. So far, she’s been led or used by others. Yes, we are shown Sansa cajoling and manipulating Robin and she has begun to understand LF’s schemes better, but she has a long way to go before she can undermine LF or get out from under his thumb. Not saying it won’t happen in the books, it most likely will eventually but as of now we haven’t been given much in terms of strategy or machinations on Sansa’s part by the author. 

She doesn't need strategy, just a desire to get the hell out of there and out from under his thumb. She'll probably get a plot that helps her seize an opportunity to leave. I have some theories about that here

and I explain more about why her time in the Vale is likely to end soon here

 

[Xemi]

On 4/9/2019 at 5:45 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah...Sansa's dead. I'm sure Sophie went out and got a "Pack Survives" tattoo right after her death scene in the show.

Oh cool, so Jon survives too. Well, it's kinda as expected. The last book wasn't gonna be called A Time for Wolves for nothing.

[Rose of Red Lake]

15 hours ago, Xemi said:

Oh cool, so Jon survives too. Well, it's kinda as expected. The last book wasn't gonna be called A Time for Wolves for nothing.

I know, its a good sign. Yay!

[White26]

I didn't read the whole topic so sorry if it was pointed out already. I think that Jon is already a fulfillment of the Ice and Fire prophecy (R+L). But at the same time I think that he will marry a Stark girl, probably Aray. I think it will be Arya beacuse it would be more surprising because it was Sansa who was rised to be a queen while Arya is more like Jon, who wasn't rised to be king. It is important aspect of Martin's work that it is often that unexpected person finds itself in unexpected situation and excel in it. Remember what Varys said to Kevan about Tommen vs Young Griff. Yet even young Griff was rised to be king, a claimant. 

There is also interesting forshadowing. If Jon will marry either Sansa or Arya, he will marry a daughter of his mother's brother. Its identical relation like in the case of Tywin and Joanna and Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark