Will Jon and Sansa be the fulfillment of the coming together of Ice and Fire?

[SansaJonRule]

On 3/28/2019 at 2:05 PM, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Jon is now a known Targ, so Dany and him getting together doesnt do it anymore. Jon and his cousins ("sisters") would seem to be the easiest way to fulfill the prophecy. Thoughts? Flames? Any facts to support those?

This an interesting concept. I am looking forward to reading this thread. But have you considered that Jon himself is the fulfillment, since he is both Stark and Targaryen?

[Rose of Red Lake]

39 minutes ago, Lady Ren said:

Yes, Jon and Sansa have a very high likelihood of marrying. This episode does nothing to convince me otherwise, and everything to encourage this line of thinking. The dividing lines are too strong. Jon's feelings are hidden, and his motives clearly on display. He didn't kneel for love, he did it because he had to. And that fact is so vividly clear. 

Note the following:

Jon, Sansa and Dany are framed and treated like a full on love triangle this whole episode. From the scene in the Great Hall, with Jon in the middle and both his women on either side to Sansa and Dany issuing each other threats and glares. It's all in the subtext. His ally and his sister. His convenient lover and his forbidden love. 

Jon rides a dragon and doesn't once smile or whoop with joy, but rather rides Rheagal with great hesitance. Yes, it was played comically, but why not have him slowly like it instead? I mean if he and Dany are supposed to run off and have a baby in the woods somewhere, shouldn't he love all her children? Instead he looks terrified the whole time and lands first.  He then keeps one eye-open on Drogon (who salivates at Jon like he can't wait to torch him and chew him) while making out with Dany. 

Jon and Sansa's scene involved Jon walking in and taking off his gloves - I'm given to believing this type of late night chat happens all the time given the ease with which they slip into it. They are so easy with one another, I can't help but compare this ease with the unease Jon shows around Dany. I can't help but notice how weak his argument is - "She will make a good Queen". And Sansa's face, like "really, bro? Her?" She takes a deep breath to calm herself, because why even respond to that inane bullshit. We're left with a question - which Jon doesn't answer for the audience. Why hide his answer? We know how Dany feels. We don't know how Jon feels. And that is key. They let Kit's face say it all. Jon doesn't feel what he wants to feel. He doesn't believe the things he's saying to Sansa. 

While Davos contemplates a marriage between Jon and Dany, we are told alongside his proposal that they are old men who don't know anything. They do not know. This is key. They don't know that Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and also "nothing lasts". 

While I hate being told things, we were told expressly that Sansa is smart in this episode. She is smart not to trust Cersei and she is smart to not trust Dany. How? She asked what dragons eat, and later on we get a scene where we're told how the dragons are devouring livestock with winter upon them, and Dany is concerned about the dragons not hardly eating. I contemplated it was because of their grief, but no, it's because they don't like the cold. Like daaamnn. Dragons = trouble. Dany = insane Targ. God flipped a coin. Dany got the bad side, and Jon the good. 50/50. Her values are so so far from Jon's values.

I won't mention Dany's heartless chat with Sam. Sams' chat with Jon however was gold. Jon knelt for his people. Dany would not, if required. Jon is the rightful heir. Dany is not. They are rivals. Lovers now, but not for long. There will be children, and their will be King Jon. But his wife will be a woman who received a long first period scene, not the woman who was told she could  no longer have children. 

Arya chooses Sansa over Jon. She makes her loyalties clear. Why include the first scene when Jon doesn't notice Arya? Because for Arya, Jon is the Jon the Jon she left behind. He's changed, and he is no longer her brother. It's an awkward space they are going to live in emotionally until Jon abandons Dany. Why? Dany is the wrong choice. There are other elements to why Arya chooses the words she choose, but I know it's because she will want Jon and Sansa to marry. 

All of the above draws battle lines between Sansa and Dany. The triangle is so in your face the entire episode that it's funny how hard people work at explaining it away. Even the promo had Sansa and Dany charging at one another Jon consumed with the war. That is his priority. He did not kneel out of love, not even remotely. Hope, maybe. But not love. and that makes all the difference. 

 

Gasping for air because this post is so fantastic....you stole my breath away!! 

[SansaJonRule]

On 3/30/2019 at 8:56 AM, NonoNono said:

Yes I believe they are bringing in someone who will take the name Aegon from Jon in S8 and win the throne. 

Why is that? Because in the books a purported Aegon comes back from Essos and you feel there needs to be some character in the show to sort of fill that role?

[Lady Ren]

16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Gasping for air because this post is so fantastic....you stole my breath away!! 

It is really so surprising to me that people are so in denial about Jon and Dany. 

Jon himself keeps speaking from a script in his head and I loved how his scene with Sansa laid that truth bare to us. It's a script, it won't stand the survive the trials that are looming ahead. 

But now Jon knows the truth. How will be feel once he knows that his and Dany's relationship is doomed? How will he feel once he knows Sansa is not his sister? The parentage reveal is also important because it will knock him of his set course momentarily. Jon will be taken aback and the script he's been following ever so loyally, will be lost in the chaos that Sam's words creates in Jon's head. I think his heart will take over and it will be fantastic. maybe. 

[SansaJonRule]

Is this thread supposed to be according to the books or the show? At first there is a lot of reference to the books, but now the show. I've only read like the first and last page (and one page of posts that went totally off topic) of this thread so far.

[GeorgeIAF]

56 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Wow, you're really optimistic to think he's even going to finish the series. I've lost all  hope.

I still believe he was paid by HBO to postpone the release until after the TV-Series Finale ... maybe i'm too hopeful. 

PS. I also believe Jon will end up with Sansa, but it wont be a marriage based on love, but more a political one.

[SansaJonRule]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I still believe he was paid by HBO to postpone the release until after the TV-Series Finale ... maybe i'm too hopeful. 

PS. I also believe Jon will end up with Sansa, but it wont be a marriage based on love, but more a political one.

Well, that would make sense. And it would be great if GRRM takes it to a different conclusion than the show.

A political marriage between Jon and Sansa would suck. I would like to see SOMEONE marry for love (and not get killed for it)!

[Rose of Red Lake]

31 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Is this thread supposed to be according to the books or the show? At first there is a lot of reference to the books, but now the show. I've only read like the first and last page (and one page of posts that went totally off topic) of this thread so far.

I cant speak for others but I know I mix in books and show when I talk about this theory.

37 minutes ago, Lady Ren said:

Jon himself keeps speaking from a script in his head and I loved how his scene with Sansa laid that truth bare to us. It's a script, it won't stand the survive the trials that are looming ahead. 

Yes I got that feeling too. It's like he's constructing an elaborate house of cards but he can't imagine it would ever fall. He is not one to despair. 

His scene with Sansa was far more intimate than anything with Dany. Jon even gets flustered when talking to her. The arguments they have are about the "other woman's beauty" and Sansa is the only one to ask him if he loves her. Of course Jon doesnt answer and this is a classic TV trope, to leave that hanging for shocking reveal later.

In terms of order of scenes this was important too. It came after the scene with Gendarya flirting, and Jon's "she's not her father" led into the scene where Sam learns that Dany executed his father and brother as a throwback to Aerys. 

Man-with-eyes-open-while-kissing is also another trope, in terms of body language, it's always a tell to the audience that the man shouldn't be trusted. Drogon's look creeped me out.

[SansaJonRule]

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Of course Jon doesnt answer and this is a classic TV trope, to leave that hanging for shocking reveal later.

I think he didn't answer because he didn't NEED to bend the knee - Dany had already pledged her assistance in fighting the Nk. He did it because he is in love, or infatuated, with her. He said he did it to save his people, but really he didn't, and Sansa called him out on it.

[Ser Gareth]

59 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Well, that would make sense. And it would be great if GRRM takes it to a different conclusion than the show.

A political marriage between Jon and Sansa would suck. I would like to see SOMEONE marry for love (and not get killed for it)!

Sansa will not marry for love.  Her transformation from a hopeless romantic who believes all the lovely stories to a bitter cynical pragmatist is almost complete.

[SansaJonRule]

23 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I cant speak for others but I know I mix in books and show when I talk about this theory.

That makes things awfully confusing. For one, some people have never read the books, or not for a long time like me (I don't see the point of rereading them unless Martin actually finishes the series. The show really started to diverge from the book in S5, and even the previous seasons left stuff out, and on top of that the books aren't even finished. I think that makes it pretty hard to base a theory partially on the books and partially on the show.

[SansaJonRule]

On 4/15/2019 at 4:06 AM, Ser Gareth said:

Sansa will not marry for love.  Her transformation from a hopeless romantic who believes all the lovely stories to a bitter cynical pragmatist is almost complete.

Yes, sadly that is probably true.

Legally, isn't she still married to Tyrion?

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, SansaJonRule said:

I think he didn't answer because he didn't NEED to bend the knee - Dany had already pledged her assistance in fighting the Nk. He did it because he is in love, or infatuated, with her. He said he did it to save his people, but really he didn't, and Sansa called him out on it.

He's not in love. She definitely is. 

He is just going along, and placating. Even his knee bend was fake. His rejoinder to her romantic dialogue: "we would be too old." Meaning he doesnt even want to engage with her flirting. SHE has to tell him to warm her up. 

I think he removed his titles to make her happy before that truce, which really illustrates why bending the knee was necessary. Happy - ah there's the rub. It's so easy for viewers to confuse love when someone is that desperate for an army. 

"Perhaps he stares at you longingly because he's hopeful for a successful military alliance"

[NonoNono]

4 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Why is that? Because in the books a purported Aegon comes back from Essos and you feel there needs to be some character in the show to sort of fill that role?

Because I think the story is about lies becoming truth, heroes never known to history, and some foreshadowing to it on the show and out.

[Cas Stark]

Well, I didn't see any signs of Sansa and Jon getting together.  

[SuperMario]

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He's not in love. She definitely is. 

He is just going along, and placating. Even his knee bend was fake. His rejoinder to her romantic dialogue: "we would be too old." Meaning he doesnt even want to engage with her flirting. SHE has to tell him to warm her up. 

I think he removed his titles to make her happy before that truce, which really illustrates why bending the knee was necessary. Happy - ah there's the rub. It's so easy for viewers to confuse love when someone is that desperate for an army. 

"Perhaps he stares at you longingly because he's hopeful for a successful military alliance"

You are reading way too much into what can simply be attributed to bad writing, stilted acting and actors who don't have a ton of chemistry together.

[lakin1013]

9 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

Yes, Jon and Sansa have a very high likelihood of marrying. This episode does nothing to convince me otherwise, and everything to encourage this line of thinking. The dividing lines are too strong. Jon's feelings are hidden, and his motives clearly on display. He didn't kneel for love, he did it because he had to. And that fact is so vividly clear. 

Note the following:

Jon, Sansa and Dany are framed and treated like a full on love triangle this whole episode. From the scene in the Great Hall, with Jon in the middle and both his women on either side to Sansa and Dany issuing each other threats and glares. It's all in the subtext. His ally and his sister. His convenient lover and his forbidden love. 

Jon rides a dragon and doesn't once smile or whoop with joy, but rather rides Rheagal with great hesitance. Yes, it was played comically, but why not have him slowly like it instead? I mean if he and Dany are supposed to run off and have a baby in the woods somewhere, shouldn't he love all her children? Instead he looks terrified the whole time and lands first.  He then keeps one eye-open on Drogon (who salivates at Jon like he can't wait to torch him and chew him) while making out with Dany. 

Jon and Sansa's scene involved Jon walking in and taking off his gloves - I'm given to believing this type of late night chat happens all the time given the ease with which they slip into it. They are so easy with one another, I can't help but compare this ease with the unease Jon shows around Dany. I can't help but notice how weak his argument is - "She will make a good Queen". And Sansa's face, like "really, bro? Her?" She takes a deep breath to calm herself, because why even respond to that inane bullshit. We're left with a question - which Jon doesn't answer for the audience. Why hide his answer? We know how Dany feels. We don't know how Jon feels. And that is key. They let Kit's face say it all. Jon doesn't feel what he wants to feel. He doesn't believe the things he's saying to Sansa. 

While Davos contemplates a marriage between Jon and Dany, we are told alongside his proposal that they are old men who don't know anything. They do not know. This is key. They don't know that Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and also "nothing lasts". 

While I hate being told things, we were told expressly that Sansa is smart in this episode. She is smart not to trust Cersei and she is smart to not trust Dany. How? She asked what dragons eat, and later on we get a scene where we're told how the dragons are devouring livestock with winter upon them, and Dany is concerned about the dragons not hardly eating. I contemplated it was because of their grief, but no, it's because they don't like the cold. Like daaamnn. Dragons = trouble. Dany = insane Targ. God flipped a coin. Dany got the bad side, and Jon the good. 50/50. Her values are so so far from Jon's values.

I won't mention Dany's heartless chat with Sam. Sams' chat with Jon however was gold. Jon knelt for his people. Dany would not, if required. Jon is the rightful heir. Dany is not. They are rivals. Lovers now, but not for long. There will be children, and their will be King Jon. But his wife will be a woman who received a long first period scene, not the woman who was told she could  no longer have children. 

Arya chooses Sansa over Jon. She makes her loyalties clear. Why include the first scene when Jon doesn't notice Arya? Because for Arya, Jon is the Jon the Jon she left behind. He's changed, and he is no longer her brother. It's an awkward space they are going to live in emotionally until Jon abandons Dany. Why? Dany is the wrong choice. There are other elements to why Arya chooses the words she choose, but I can't but feel that she senses the tension between Jon and Sansa - the dismissive way Jon spoke about Sansa, like they were still kids. This was Arya's way of telling Jon to snap the f* out of it. This is for real, bro!

All of the above draws battle lines between Sansa and Dany. The triangle is so in your face the entire episode that it's funny how hard people work at explaining it away. Even the promo had Sansa and Dany charging at one another Jon consumed with the war. That is his priority. He did not kneel out of love, not even remotely. Hope, maybe. But not love. and that makes all the difference. 

 

I have no particular feelings about Jon and Sansa but in addition to what Lady Ren noted:

1.  Jon asks Sansa - Have you no faith in me?  That is a very vulnerable question and the act of him asking her this tells us that he cares for her opinion, will bare his soul to her, and will wait for her response.

2. Sansa to Jon:  She said something like - Of course I do, with a softened voice. This tells us she can respond to vulnerable Jon, and she will reassure him.  

3. Sansa remarks that Dany is prettier than Ned.  This is a silly comment. Why did she make it, to Jon of all people?  Curious that a totally disinterested half-sister would say this about the appearance of Jon's GF.

4.  Jon cannot or does not answer Sansa's question about whether he did it for love or hope for his people. 

I comment here because I watched the scene carefully, due to all the posts about Sansa and Jon.  There is something here, either it is completely ambiguous, or something else.  I am not sure about Sansa but I do not think the Jon/Dany thing has legs.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, SuperMario said:

You are reading way too much into what can simply be attributed to bad writing, stilted acting and actors who don't have a ton of chemistry together.

Funnily enough, the producers appear to be "reading too much":

BENIOFF: Our arguments tend to be about little detail things.
WEISS: Things like how many frames to leave at the end of a shot. Or whether the take where an actor is smiling or just sort-of smiling is better. That’s the type of thing we’ll go back and forth over for 20 pages.
BENIOFF: We had a long argument about when Dany’s dragons flew over the Dothraki whether their horses should be afraid. And Dan was like: “You know, the horses have been with her for a long while…”
WEISS: Why would they be afraid?
BENIOFF: Because they’re horses and they’re f—ing dumb and dragons are big and scary. So we’d spend like an hour on that.
WEISS: An hour discussing literally four seconds of film. 

I'm going to continue to analyze this stuff because "bad acting" can only take you so far. Eventually you have to actually look at the scenes and explain why they made those writing choices because they are thinking about them ^

[SuperMario]

Yes, those brilliant producers and their creative decision-making.

You think they were discussing whether to have 2 or 3 prostitutes banging Bronn? And to have Bronn get scared or just merely concerned at hearing one of them has the pox. 

How about how many testicle or sans testicle jokes are too many?

Yep. Benioff and Weiss are the next Kubricks with their attention to detail.

[Nowy Tends]

18 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Yes, those brilliant producers and their creative decision-making.

You think they were discussing whether to have 2 or 3 prostitutes banging Bronn? And to have Bronn get scared or just merely concerned at hearing one of them has the pox. 

How about how many testicle or sans testicle jokes are too many?

Yep. Benioff and Weiss are the next Kubricks with their attention to detail.

This. They talk like dumb 1st year film students.