Will Jon and Sansa be the fulfillment of the coming together of Ice and Fire?

[Cas Stark]

35 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

It is like a mirror image of Robb and it makes me think the show will give us a pragmatic Jon in opposition to romantic Robb.  In the show, Robb fell, deep, in love with Talisa.  Many posters here are doubtful about Jon's real feelings.  While we can be sure he likes having intimate access to a pretty girl, we have also been shown Jon since a boy and he tends to what is right.  I expect we will see a combination of Ruling, Smirking Dany and Jon searching out his own role before he will arrive at a decision.  

The show went to great lengths to show us an unattractive side to Dany - her sitting proud on her horse, the smirk when the dragon flew by, the 'they eat whatever they want' comment, Dany expecting a wonderful compliment from Sansa and not getting one , and reminding us what she did to the Tarleys - kind of a needy yet mean queen.

I'm not at all sure the show thinks any of these actions are negative, I think they may view all of it as Dany being her typical badass, take no prisoners, bend the knee, as ruthless as I need to be to break the wheel self.  

 

[Lady of Mercia]

I've been a huge Dany fan for 7 seasons and 5 books - until she smirked when the dragons flew over.  It's like she was so amused by how terrified the smallfolk were, and it made her seem proud and out of place, which I'm pretty certain was the show's intention. And it only got worse as the episode went on, although the dragons eating "whatever they want" comment was pretty funny, though not to the people in the room I imagine.

[SansaJonRule]

21 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think both are just as bad for his character, because I dont see a difference because it characterizes him the same way. Either way he'd be acting like Robb. He'd be acting like Jorah and Daario too. There needs to be a contrast between Jon and those guys. 

Agreed, except I don't think you can compare him to Daario. He was pathetic when Dany told him he couldn't go with her. Jorah and Jon are still pretty single minded. Jorah to protect Dany, and Jon to protect the north.

[Kajjo]

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

Jon's feelings are hidden, and his motives clearly on display. He didn't kneel for love, he did it because he had to. And that fact is so vividly clear. 

Daenerys already pledged herself to the Northern cause. He did NOT have to bend the knee anymore. After her dragon dies, Daenerys wanted to fight.

Your statement is just contradicting what was plainly shown.

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

Jon, Sansa and Dany are framed and treated like a full on love triangle this whole episode.

I see no love in Sansa. She doesn't like Jon thinking with his dick instead of brain. She doesn't like that he surrendered his crown. She doesn't like the North be under Daenerys. She probabyl even doesn't like Daenery herself.

But love? Where do you get that impression?

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

why not have him slowly like it instead?

Have you seen a different show?! He immensely enjoys the dragon ride and says something like, "no you have ruined horses for me", i.e. the ride on a dragon is so much better. 

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

Instead he looks terrified the whole time and lands first.

He does not abort the ride, but leads Daenerys to a location of childhood memory. This is romantic!

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

He then keeps one eye-open on Drogon (who salivates at Jon like he can't wait to torch him and chew him) while making out with Dany

No, Drogon does not look like torching him. He has the typical look of a pet watching his master while making love. Have you ever had a pet that watched you having sex?

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

She is smart not to trust Cersei and she is smart to not trust Dany.

Here I agree. Sansa has learned.

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

Arya chooses Sansa over Jon. She makes her loyalties clear.

You really watched a different show, I am afraid. Arya did not choose Sansa over Jon, she just establishes that the family, the pack, is priority. And that Jon belongs to the family: "Never forget that!" 

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

Why include the first scene when Jon doesn't notice Arya?

Arya doesn't want to be seen. She placed herself in a crowd of commoners. Nobody recognises her, neither Gendry no the Hound nor Jon. Don't be ridiculous.

On 4/15/2019 at 7:51 AM, Lady Ren said:

All of the above draws battle lines between Sansa and Dany.

With regards to power and how becomes Queen certainly yes. With regards to romantic love, I am not so sure. Anything can happen, yes, but many of your interpretations are wrong, see above.

[Lady Ren]

@Kajjo

Those were my impressions. You have a different perspective. Everything is happening at the same time after all. 

But can you honestly tell me Sansa and Dany aren't being set up as romantic rivals in light of Jon's true parentage?

Even if Jon and Dany end up married and in blissfull love for thousands of years to come, I see what I see, and that is a love triangle. The layers you mentioned just make it that much richer. 

[NonoNono]

Sansa and Jon cannot rule the seven kingdoms together. Jon has no support outside of the north and he is losing that. He would have none as Aegon Targaryen because no one will really believe this across the rest of the kingdoms, and Sansa is making a big deal about not kneeling to a Targaryen. The ones who support Sansa don't like Targs, and wouldn't like the bastard child of Rhaegar as their king, and that is how they will see Jon. There's a reason Sam has no proof with him, and the maesters will never reveal the truth.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

2 hours ago, NonoNono said:

Sansa and Jon cannot rule the seven kingdoms together. Jon has no support outside of the north and he is losing that. He would have none as Aegon Targaryen because no one will really believe this across the rest of the kingdoms, and Sansa is making a big deal about not kneeling to a Targaryen. The ones who support Sansa don't like Targs, and wouldn't like the bastard child of Rhaegar as their king, and that is how they will see Jon. There's a reason Sam has no proof with him, and the maesters will never reveal the truth.

Lol, do you really think Jon's parentage will have no impact on the storyline? They've been dragging this plot since S6 (Hell, S1 if you count the dialogue exchanges between Ned and Jon/Robert) and they've already pointed out that Jon is the rightful heir, the true king, the protector of the realm, etc.

Ned, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't go through all of that trouble for Jon to remain a bastard without importance. Bran tells Sam, "It's time to tell Jon the truth." And he knows something we don't.

[Kajjo]

7 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

But can you honestly tell me Sansa and Dany aren't being set up as romantic rivals in light of Jon's true parentage?

Yes, I don't think they are set-up for romance. It might happen nonetheless, but I don't see it coming. 

Where are the glances, the smiles, any flirting or any comments by third persons? They used all these movie tricks to show us the romantic development with Jon and Daenerys, back then with Jon and Ygritte. They don't show us any of it with Sansa towards Jon.

Yes, some anooyment about bending his knee, losing his crown, thinking with his dick. I see that. Maybe even some jealousy regarding the prettier woman, but romantic interest? No, I can honestly say, I would be surprised and the directors would suck if they do that without any clear indicators up front.

7 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

I see what I see, and that is a love triangle. The layers you mentioned just make it that much richer. 

I see it more as an power triangle. At least at the moment.

7 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

Those were my impressions. You have a different perspective.

Yes, of course we can have different impressions of the same scene. But, for example, Jon literally saying "now you ruined horsed for me" is obviously supposed to mean he is enthusiastic about dragon riding. Don't you agree? Is this really about impressions and opinions? Shouldn't we take the dialogue serious?

And Arya is clearly talking about family, not preferring Sansa. She just defends Sansa. She actually tells Jon that he is family, too. They set-up for Jon having to decide between Targaryen and Stark, to be at least drawn between the two sides. 

[Pacala]

Actually Dragons are fire and The Others are ice.

Jon, Dany, Sansa, etc represent the mankind who destroy everything.

That`s why the staredown between Jon and Night king, Drogon. They were forshadowing the betrayal. Drogon start to realise Jon represent the end of magic same as The Others knows it. But, Night king wants to be set free, he wants revenge. After all he was human turned by COTH&Human. Drogon wants to live, Night King wants to die (fire consume, ice preserve).

I dont see a marriage between Jon and Sansa. There is no point. Jon is already the heir of Stark throne, and heir of Tagaryan throne. He dosen`t need an union with Sansa or Danny.

[Xemi]

3 hours ago, AEJON TARGARYEN said:

Lol, do you really think Jon's parentage will have no impact on the storyline? They've been dragging this plot since S6 (Hell, S1 if you count the dialogue exchanges between Ned and Jon/Robert) and they've already pointed out that Jon is the rightful heir, the true king, the protector of the realm, etc.

Ned, Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't go through all of that trouble for Jon to remain a bastard without importance. Bran tells Sam, "It's time to tell Jon the truth." And he knows something we don't.

He's a troll who keeps spamming how Harry Strickland is "Aegon" and that he's gonna end up on the throne, don't waste your time.

[Rose of Red Lake]

11 hours ago, Kajjo said:

I can honestly say, I would be surprised and the directors would suck if they do that without any clear indicators up front.

What, do you want Jon and Sansa to make out? They think they're siblings and can't act on anything. How would you convey that in TV form? One way is to use blocking, romantic framing ("snow fell light as lovers' kisses" = kiss on the battlements) and heated arguments in candlelit scenes. They also cloaked each other (subtext is married). Jon falling in love with a cousin/half-sister was in the original outline, so you can't argue that GRRM never thought of it. They realize they're in love but it only comes out officially that they do, when the secret of Jon's parentage is revealed, so wait for E2 to see. (BTW he also had Jonnel Stark marry Sansa to foreshadow it). 

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What, do you want Jon and Sansa to make out? They think they're siblings and can't act on anything. How would you convey that in TV form? One way is to use blocking, romantic framing ("snow fell light as lovers' kisses" = kiss on the battlements) and heated arguments in candlelit scenes. They also cloaked each other (subtext is married). Jon falling in love with a cousin/half-sister was in the original outline, so you can't argue that GRRM never thought of it. They realize they're in love but it only comes out officially that they do, when the secret of Jon's parentage is revealed, so wait for E2 to see. (BTW he also had Jonnel Stark marry Sansa to foreshadow it). 

Erm, I guess I would expect to see sexual tension in a relationship that is supposed to be boiling under the surface.  Instead, I see no chemistry, no attempt at chemistry, the show isn't even trying to make the audience 'see' the chemistry by having other characters comment on it, like they did with Jon and Dany.  They aren't in love.  They aren't going to get married.  There are no signs.  Being snowed on isn't a sign unless you think that Jon is going to marry every person in the North.  All night time conversations in the show take place by candlelight.

But, you've got a few more weeks I guess to keep seeing imaginary signs and then it will all be over and there will be Jon or Sansa and that will be that.

[Rose of Red Lake]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Erm, I guess I would expect to see sexual tension in a relationship that is supposed to be boiling under the surface.  Instead, I see no chemistry, no attempt at chemistry, the show isn't even trying to make the audience 'see' the chemistry by having other characters comment on it, like they did with Jon and Dany.  They aren't in love.  They aren't going to get married.  There are no signs.  Being snowed on isn't a sign unless you think that Jon is going to marry every person in the North.  All night time conversations in the show take place by candlelight.

But, you've got a few more weeks I guess to keep seeing imaginary signs and then it will all be over and there will be Jon or Sansa and that will be that.

She's teary-eyed asking Jon about his feelings toward another woman in her chambers...that isn't enough sexual tension for you? 

Todd Vanderwuff in his VOX review of Season 6:

"Of course, [Littlefinger] will clearly try to marry Sansa, and the show is — a bit weirdly — playing Sansa and Jon’s scenes as if they’re a romantic couple waiting to happen. (People keep doubting me on this, but seriously, compare their scenes to the way the season two scenes between Talisa and Robb were shot.)" (x) ... "Also, he keeps framing Jon and Sansa in a way that seems meant to directly nod toward Ned and Catelyn Stark, and I don’t know what to do with that information." (x)

Andrew Bloom: "One more for you — where do you think the show is going with the strange romantic tension it seemed to be trying to generate between Jon and Sansa? Is it just a random one-off? Something they’re developing as odd parallel to Cersei and Jamie? Or am I misreading that scene entirely?"

Todd VanDerWerff: "I definitely think they’re building some sort of romantic something between the two, and I’m not sure where any of it is supposed to be headed. But it’s definitely strange! Maybe it’s the late second act complication that gives way to ~~~love~~~~~( I am amused by how the show seems to vacillate wildly between the two of them being secretly in love and secretly enemies.)"

Here is a collection of gifs that illustrate how Jon and Sansa share almost identical scenes as Robb/ Talisa, Sam/ Gilly, and Ygritte/ Jon.

[Nowy Tends]

14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She's teary-eyed asking Jon about his feelings toward another woman in her chambers...that isn't enough sexual tension for you? 

Seriously? There is ZERO sexual tension in this scene…

You might watch a few films like Eyes Wide Shut, Match Point, The Secret of Brokeback Mountain, Fifty Shades, etc.  to learn about sexual tension on screen…

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, Nowy Tends said:

You might watch a few films like Eyes Wide Shut, Match Point, The Secret of Brokeback Mountain, Fifty Shades, etc.  to learn about sexual tension on screen…

None of these really apply to the unique situation where they feel they have to suppress their feelings because they're related. It would have to be subtext, which is what I'm pointing out. 

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

None of these really apply to the unique situation where they feel they have to suppress their feelings because they're related. It would have to be subtext, which is what I'm pointing out. 

People see all kinds of things in the show that aren't there.  They were expecting a whole subplot around "Talisa's" letters, but there was nothing.  They were expecting something something something with Arya and the Waif, but nothing.  Just like people have seen many, many things in the books that aren't there either, Mance isn't Rhaegar, Euron isn't Daario, so and so and so and so aren't secret Targaryens.

What I don't see at all, nor even the attempt, is sexual tension between these two characters. In all probability Jon Snow is going to die anyway, so he won't be alive to marry anyone, let alone his least favorite half sibling/cousin.

Forehead kisses are also not sexual, this is why multiple people not sexually attracted to each other are getting and receiving kisses on the forehead. Snow in a show where dozens of people are snowed on, is not sexual either.  But, like I said, you've got a few more weeks to indulge in this ship before reality sets in. 

[Itchyscratch]

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

  Being snowed on isn't a sign unless you think that Jon is going to marry every person in the North. 

I just snorted hot chocolate out through my nose. Thank you for that!

Imaginary love stories are the best, aren't they!

Jaime had a good reason to kill Aerys whereas Daenerys didn't have to kill Sam's father and brother. I expect she is thinking about that when she is judging Jaime.

As for Bran, I am guessing he knows the part that Jaime will play in all this and that there will be a reason for him to ensure that he is saved for the big fight.

[Lady Ren]

Claiming that there is no sexual tensiom because you don't perceive it is problematic because if you don't want too see it you won't.

There is a reason Jon's father is Rheagar and not Ned. There is a reason Jon and Sansa took back Winterfell together. 

And there is a reason why someone who knows how to keep her mouth shut (Sansa) finds herself unable to around Dany.

Subtext. 

 

[Zorral]

GOT, neither the books nor the television series, are within the romance genre, and are not written with those tropes.  They are quite close to the horror genre though, including the horror tropes of hacked off limbs and other atrocities presented as deliberately created images and patterns.

[Lady Ren]

Didnt GRRM say love and sex are one the main motivators of human behaviour? And that his one criticism of lord of the rings is that hobbits are made to seem almost sexless? 

A Song of Ice and Fire is an epic fantasy series. Epic means everything, including romance.

Hell, the hero of the story was born of a forbidden romance.