Angel Eyes Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 21 hours ago, T and A said: Thank god, I am not the only one Because I see this theory everywhere on the internet. And I thought to myself, I am clearly missing something, because I don't see any romantic chemistry at all. USA Today seems to think there's romantic chemistry. See here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 It's called wish fulfillment fandom or something. I guess? It's like certain girls in h.s. who were deluded that the most popular boy in the school really really really loved them, when he'd never even spoken a word to them. They stared at their phones every night expecting him to call. (He never did, and continued to have a series of steady girlfriends, and never ever spoke to such girls or even noticed they existed. And after grad, they never saw him again -- unless at a reunion, where he still never saw them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Ren Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Articles started coming out in season 6, after Jon and Sansa reunited and most of their scenes seemed to have romantic undertone. Regardless of whether or not there is "chemistry", which is entirely subjective, the writing seems to point in this direction. When season 6 ended, they played up the look exchanged between Littlefinger and Sansa saying that she would steal Jon's kingship under Littlefingers tutelage. Instead Sansa had Littlefinger killed. Jon gave up his kingship all on his own. Following season 7, they played up Sansa's "undermining" Jon, saying that she wants the North for herself. I firmly believe that season 8 will continue to show Sansa as being in full support of Jon. The parentage reveal will change little in that regard. When she finds out he is the heir to the Iron Throne, she will make sure his ass sits on it. They keep deflecting from the true source of tension and want us to be blindsided by what actually happens. D&D are all about the moments. And they are very clearly working towards a big moment with Jon and Sansa. And again, I'm not talking chemistry here, I'm talking content and writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Sansa eyes Jon when he's not looking - when he hugs Bran. Then she eyes Dany as she's hugging him, like a jealous wife. Jon looks to Sansa as soon as they hear about Dany's dead dragon (why not look to the woman you love whose loss apparently affected you so?). Then at the table, there is more framing. Jon and Sansa are framed by the camera so that Dany and Jon never get a solo shot of them together. The main prediction from S8 hype was that there would be a Tyrion/Dany/Jon triangle. That does not appear to be the case. However, if there is a romantic plot it will always be a triangle in GRRM's work (one time I attempted to count them all, book and show, and came up with 101). So there has to be something else going on. Even in an episode where they didnt have any dialogue together, they still had Sansa talking about Jon. They again framed them together at points in the war room. In S7, he came up in her conversations even when he was away at Dragonstone. I dont know about you but my brother doesn't come up that often when I talk to his girlfriend. Dany at least senses that the source of the tension is Jon and even says that Dany loving Jon bothers Sansa. Again why would a sister care that much - Arya sure doesn't. Newsweek put them on the list as one of the most popular fandom pairings, along with Gendry/Arya and Jaime/Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wik Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 On 3/30/2019 at 2:27 AM, Juligen said: Maybe there is some foreshadow in the books about this pairing. Let me check... YOU WILL MARRY A KING.............. “You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”Arya screwed up her face. “No,” she said, “that’s Sansa." (Eddard V- A Game of Thrones) ------------------------------------------------------------- For me this quote is one of the most important quotes from the entire series because it pretty much sets up for the audience both Sansa and Arya story arc. Sansa will be the sister who will marry and have children and fulfill her childhood dreams of a happy family, which is why Love, marriage and children will be a constant theme in Sansa’s arc story. She will be treated as an object, passed around by the powerful players of the story, all interested in her claim of Winterfell and the North; she will be forced into marriage alliances and her future children will be desired for their claim in the North. Sansa will try to survive as much as she can, keeping still a slim hope to find love and happiness and maybe one day fulfill that sweet dream of a rebuilding her destroyed family. Arya will follow another path; she will be a warrior and ruler on her own. Arya always wanted to be the keeper of her own holdfast, she wanted to be a knight and fight in battle and most important, I believe Arya wanted to feel the independence that most women in Westeros could never feel. Not that love and marriage is not impossible for her, but I feel George wants Arya to be a Queen regent on her own. George is trying to tells us in this passage of the books that women should be able to choose their own paths and if its love, marriage and children what they wish for they should have it, but if its not, they should be free to figure out her own destiny. The tragedy of Lyanna Stark was that she never had a choice and was forced into marry someone she never cared for, and I believe George wants to show with both Sansa and Arya that girls should be free to choose their own dreams., because BOTH dreams are equality valid. A CLOAK STAINED IN FIRE AND BLOOD...................... When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. (A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII) --------------------------------------------------------- Sansa cloaked herself with a cloak stained in "Fire and Blood" the words of House Targaryen. For me this has always been one of the biggest foreshadows on the book and its interesting to notice how George used the character of Sandor Cleagane as a redherring for this scene in order to not make so obvious the connection with Jon. It was only when we make the connection of this particular scene with one that happened a few chapters before In the book A CLASH OF KINGS that it became pretty obvious this quote was about Jon Snow. ---------------------------------------------------------------- “I’ve never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I’ve been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?” Catelyn took a step backwards. “Brienne.” “No, that wasn’t it.” Jaime Lannister upended the flagon. A trickled ran down onto his face, bright as blood. “Snow, that was the one. Such a white name … like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths.” A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained with blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII ----------------------------------------------------------- THE ORDER OF THE CHAPTERS OF THE BOOKS.... Every time Sansa’s marriage proposals are being discussed in the books, the next chapter usually its followed by a JON chapter. Once you put the two quotes together is that you really get it, what George was once again, very delicately trying to tells us. In the first book A GAME OF THRONES, chapter 4 Eddard I, we have King Robert arriving at Winterfell and asking to visit Lyanna tomb in the crypts of the castle. While there King Robert decides to ask for Sansa’s hand in marriage for his son prince Joffrey. This is the chapter where Sansa and Joffrey become officially betrothed to each other and their Royal engagement its made official. The very next chapter? JON. This is also the chapter where Jon Snow will get drunk in the Feats for the king and ask uncle Ben to join the NightsWatch. In a CLASH OF KINGS chapter 52, SANSA IV, Sansa will get her period and be finally “fit to bear children to the king”. Cersei then tries, as best as she can, to be a mother figure to Sansa in this very special moment and gives her a womanly advice. She tells her that love is a dangerous feeling that makes us all weaker and it should wiser for her to love only her children. Once again we have a chapter discussing Sansa future marriage to a king and the following chapter is JON VII. Finally on A STORM OF SWORDS, we have the famous chapter 68, Sansa VI, where she laments that no one will ever marry her for love, its only her name and Winterfell they all want. The very next chapter of the book? JON. Again, thats not a coincidence, George does this, he said that he takes a lot of planning and caring about the way he writes and structures his books. ------------------------------------------------------------------- A CLASH OF KINGS - THE WINTER ROSE In A CLASH OF KINGS we will have George very quietly making the connection with Jon, Sansa and the tale of Bael the Bard. While was I re reading the books I noticed that George was playing with the chapters orders and trying to tells us some hints of the story by putting characters chpaters next to each other. The first time Jon meets Ygritte on “A CLASH OF KINGS”, chapter 51, she tells him a story of Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose: "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak. "North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.' "Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain." (A Clash of Kings – Jon VI) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Right next in the following chapter 52, Sansa has her first flowering. This is the chapter where Sansa gets her first period and its now “fit to bear children to the King.” "The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You've had your first flowering, no more." Sansa had never felt less flowery. "My lady mother told me, but I... I thought it would be different.""Different how?""I don't know. Less... less messy, and more magical.” Queen Cersei laughed. "Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman's life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you'll learn that soon enough... and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all." She took a sip of milk. "So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?" "It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded," said Sansa, "and to bear children for the king." ……. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?" "Everyone wants to be loved." "I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same." (A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV) --------------------------------------------------------- In the chapter 52, Sansa gets her period for the first time. She is taken to see Cersei who uses the moment to give Sansa womanly advice about love. She warns Sansa that love is dangerous and make us weaker. The following chapter of the book is JON VII. ------------------------------------------------------------------- “Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?” “Everyone wants to be loved.” “I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.” (A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the end of chapter Cersei warns Sansa about love and how dangerous it can be. The following chapter of the book is also JON VII. George really wanted us to picture Jon, Sansa and the Blue Winter Rose tale all together. For me this is one of the biggest clues that not only Jon and Sansa will marry but also, its their child that will continue House Stark. ---------------------------------------------------------------- A STORM OF SWORDS - THE FALLING SNOW In A storm of Swords, George used the prologue of the book to foreshadow Jon and Sansa romance, using the snow to symbolize Jon Snow. In the two paragraphs under, Chett will lament that heavy snow has ruined his plans for desertion and that Jon Snow and Sam stole his comfortable position as Maester Aemon’s steward: and that Jon Snow stole his position. “He could feel tears freezing to his cheeks. It isn’t fair, he wanted to scream. Snow would ruin everything he’d worked for, all his careful plans. It was a heavy fall, thick white flakes coming down all about him. How would they find their food caches in the snow, or the game trail they meant to follow east? They won’t need Dywen nor Bannen to hunt us down neither, not if we’re tracking through fresh snow. And snow hid the shape of the ground, especially by night. A horse could stumble over a root, break a leg on a stone. We’re done, he realized. Done before we began. We’re lost. There’d be no lord’s life for the leechman’s son, no keep to call his own, no wives nor crowns. Only a wildling’s sword in his belly, and then an unmarked grave. The snow’s taken it all from me … the bloody snow …” “Snow had ruined him once before. Snow and his pet pig.” (ASOS Prologue) -------------------------------------------- And later we have Jon Snow introducing himself as “the snow”…… “The singer rose to his feet. "I’m Mance Rayder,” he said as he put aside the lute. “And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell.” ( A Storm of Swords – Jon I) --------------------------------------------------------------- Then comes Sansa’s chapter at the end of the book, where she will feel snow falling down her lips and touching her almost like a lover…….. Snow was falling on the Eyrie. Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams. (A Storm of Swords - Sansa VIII) ------------------------------------------------- A FEAST FOR CROWS - SANSA FIRST LOVE In A FEAST FOR CROWS, chapter 23, we have Sansa playing the role of Alayne Stone, Littlefinger bastard daughter. In this chapter Sansa remembers Lord Yohn Royce son, Ser Wayman Royce and how she fell madly in love with him when he visited Winterfell on his way to take the black on the Nights Watch. If we go back to the prologue of the first book, we will find out that surprising, Ser Waymar physical description is identical of Jon Snow. George is trying to tell us that Sansa will probably be physical attracted to Jon Snow once she is reunited with him later in the story. "Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw . . . he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney." - A FEAST FOR CROWS, Alayne I ------------------------------------------------------------ Waymar Royce is described as follows. Notice how similar this description is to Jon. Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather. A GAME OF THRONES, Prologue --------------------------------------------------------------- Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. - A GAME OF THRONES, Bran I ---------------------------------------------------------------- JON SNOW BECOMING SANSA'S HERO “Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. **That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”** - ( A Game of Thrones – Sansa III) She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once, but none of them came. She called for the heroes from the songs, **for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, but no one heard.** (A Clash of Kings – Sansa IV) They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”** A Storm of Swords – Jon II Notice how Sansa's heros match with with the ones Jon's used to pretend to be as a child. “Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. A game of Thrones – Sansa VI "I will not hang him," said Jon. "Bring him here." "Oh, Seven save us," he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw. A dance of Dragons – Jon II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THEIR DREAMS COMPLETING EACH OTHERS Dreams of home and family “She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. "If I give him Sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as Valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.” A STORM OF SWORDS, Sansa II “I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decide to live his life on the wall. I could name him Robb”..- A STORM OF SWORDS, Jon XII Rebuilding Winterfell…… The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. A Storm of Swords - Jon XII -------------------------------------------------- There is so much foreshadow for this relationship that I always shake my head when people say there is nothing in the books about this romance. I know this is old and I apologize for dredging up old stuff but I hadn't been around much the past couple months and saw this. Obviously right now there are so many debates on who/what/where etc stuff will happen, I was going through everything yesterday and just couldn't figure out WHO would marry Jon, if he becomes king. I had a thought of Sansa but after some quick mental tossing and turning with it I decided no. But who? I legit can't come up with anyone else. I think it's safe to say, we are low on females that would qualify for such a position. After reading all the specific highlighted info, I feel like this is REALLY solid. I think you won me over lol....such a great and detailed post. Good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Jon will not marry anyone. In the best case, he lives and stays in the North; in the more likely case, he dies sacrificing himself for the greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wik Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 29 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Jon will not marry anyone. In the best case, he lives and stays in the North; in the more likely case, he dies sacrificing himself for the greater good. I'm no "care bear" in the sense that I have illusions of fairy tell endings, I know, I get it. That being said, I am, and for some time have been in the camp of Jon having been the main hidden protagonist of the series and while I can't/won't rule out something like you said happening, I think of it more as an Aragorn type of thing...alot of horrible things happen to alot of people and even Jon has had a rough go in many aspects, but in my mind he IS The Song of Ice and Fire. The ONLY character who embodies both. So I always have a hard time with him being some sacrificial lamb (even though we all know it is 100% in his personality) at the end. I feel like the blood letting of the Starks early on has everyone SO ready for everything bad that it's almost contrary now to expect or think something might actually end well (not rainbows and sunshine by any means but not Vlad the Impaler, either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 34 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Jon will not marry anyone. In the best case, he lives and stays in the North; in the more likely case, he dies sacrificing himself for the greater good. Agree. And won’t even elaborate further on Jonsa, just wait for ep 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wik Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 37 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Agree. And won’t even elaborate further on Jonsa, just wait for ep 8. Why not?! That is the whole point of the conversation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Wik said: Why not?! That is the whole point of the conversation..... Most convos, yes. But when it comes to certain topics, most are very keen on whatever they’re defending/proposing. And it just turns into an endless back and forth, “it will happen” vs “no it won’t”. And Jonsa is one such. I (and others) don’t see anything there. Like, not at all. All the quotes from the books are being misinterpreted or deliberately twisted, and the same goes for the bits of scenes from the show. IMO. But the pro-Jonsa crew are certain we’re wrong. And back and forth we go. So, waiting for ep 8 makes sense. And then we will all know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 57 minutes ago, Wik said: I'm no "care bear" in the sense that I have illusions of fairy tell endings, I know, I get it. That being said, I am, and for some time have been in the camp of Jon having been the main hidden protagonist of the series and while I can't/won't rule out something like you said happening, I think of it more as an Aragorn type of thing...alot of horrible things happen to alot of people and even Jon has had a rough go in many aspects, but in my mind he IS The Song of Ice and Fire. The ONLY character who embodies both. So I always have a hard time with him being some sacrificial lamb (even though we all know it is 100% in his personality) at the end. I feel like the blood letting of the Starks early on has everyone SO ready for everything bad that it's almost contrary now to expect or think something might actually end well (not rainbows and sunshine by any means but not Vlad the Impaler, either). I used to believe that, that the story is 'about' Jon Snow and he would live to the end, but I've come to really question what GRRM's idea of 'bittersweet' is, and whether it comports with a normal person's idea of bittersweet or whether it isn't really much darker. But, whatever he does do, it will not involve a romance with his least favorite sister/cousin Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowy Tends Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Theon's cock will have grown back before Sansa marries Jon… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wik Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Most convos, yes. But when it comes to certain topics, most are very keen on whatever they’re defending/proposing. And it just turns into an endless back and forth, “it will happen” vs “no it won’t”. And Jonsa is one such. I (and others) don’t see anything there. Like, not at all. All the quotes from the books are being misinterpreted or deliberately twisted, and the same goes for the bits of scenes from the show. IMO. But the pro-Jonsa crew are certain we’re wrong. And back and forth we go. So, waiting for ep 8 makes sense. And then we will all know for sure. I can respect that, but it is sad. I wasn't sold on this theory, but the post made showcasing all the chapters and what they said IS interesting to me. I thought of this possibility not from any want or excitement but just trying to look at it from the perspective of GRRM isn't going to be introducing a ton of female characters between now and the end that would qualify for being a queen. With such a short list, by default, I felt like the Jonsa theory at least has SOME merit. But I get your point....I remember discovering R+L=J on my own on one of my re-reads and being SO HYPED. I scoured the internet for SOMEWHERE I could share this AMAZING revelation. That is when I found this place, back in like 2007 or something lol.....I was making my post to share to the world of Ice and Fire the amazing apparent secret I was going to enlighten the world with. I was then promptly referred over to current R+L=J thread at the time lol And that was much the same....several of us SURE, beyond certain of it and just as many or more who said we were nuts. Only time will tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinscS2 Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Cas Stark said: But, whatever he does do, it will not involve a romance with his least favorite sister/cousin Sansa. Especially not since there's more sexual tension and romantic understones between Tormund and The Hound than there is between Jon and Sansa... No disrespect to the Jonsa-shippers, by all means keep dreaming and hoping, but prepare to get disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wik Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Cas Stark said: I used to believe that, that the story is 'about' Jon Snow and he would live to the end, but I've come to really question what GRRM's idea of 'bittersweet' is, and whether it comports with a normal person's idea of bittersweet or whether it isn't really much darker. But, whatever he does do, it will not involve a romance with his least favorite sister/cousin Sansa. I think alot of people cling to this and I used to as well. I won't dispute it either way, obviously I have no idea, but he was quoted saying that back in 1993 or somewhere around there. What was contrarian/dark and gritty in 1993 is mostly care bear stuff now (or at least there is a larger volume of "bittersweet" and gritty/dark endings in novels now than there have been, IMO). So, I feel inclined to think this is less "crazy" now than it would have been even back in the late 90s and early 2000s. Again, just my opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Wik said: I can respect that, but it is sad. I wasn't sold on this theory, but the post made showcasing all the chapters and what they said IS interesting to me. Fair enough. I really, really don’t see it. As I’ve said, all the arguments I’ve seen can be summed up as either wishful thinking or deliberately twisting the text into a pretzel so that it “fits”. 3 hours ago, Wik said: I thought of this possibility not from any want or excitement That’s good to know. 3 hours ago, Wik said: but just trying to look at it from the perspective of GRRM isn't going to be introducing a ton of female characters between now and the end that would qualify for being a queen. I agree. But why do we need a character who is fit to be a queen? Not only that, but why would Jon need a queen, and why can’t Sansa be a queen w/o Jon? I mean, there’s lots of possibilities for both characters. Side note: Val is Jon’s true queen. It’s happened already, the moment when he “stole” her... and there are a few iterations of this thread (book side of the forum). 3 hours ago, Wik said: With such a short list, by default, I felt like the Jonsa theory at least has SOME merit. It doesn’t though. IMO, of course. They grew up believing they’re half-siblings. And half-siblings who don’t even like each other that much. Jon has a more loving bond w/ Arya, Robb, Bran, and Rickon than he does w/ Sansa. Not only that, but they have both believed all their lives they’re half-siblings. At some point they’re gonna find out they’re only cousins, true. But how does that work? We have two characters who rarely think about one another, and who think they’re half-siblings. Then, they learn they’re cousins and... what? “Oh cool, we’re not siblings, let’s make babies!” Yeah, don’t see it. And especially don’t see it w/ Jon and Sansa. What people put forth as foreshadowing isn’t foreshadowing at all. Again, IMO. 3 hours ago, Wik said: But I get your point....I remember discovering R+L=J on my own on one of my re-reads and being SO HYPED. I scoured the internet for SOMEWHERE I could share this AMAZING revelation. That is when I found this place, back in like 2007 or something lol.....I was making my post to share to the world of Ice and Fire the amazing apparent secret I was going to enlighten the world with. I was then promptly referred over to current R+L=J thread at the time lol I know the feeling! When I first read the books (only the 1st 3 had been published at that point), I was certain Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon’s parents. But I was working insane 95 hrs/week at the time and I just let it go. When AFfC was finally published, I reread the first 3 books before reading the new one, and again felt sooo sure of it, I just had to look it up online. And the first hit I got to my “ Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are Jon Snow’s parents” was this board. Well, it’s predecessor. And I lurked forever, and swore I would NEVER join until all the books had been published. I changed my mind after reading Dance, because I was itching to join the discussion. 3 hours ago, Wik said: And that was much the same....several of us SURE, beyond certain of it and just as many or more who said we were nuts. Only time will tell! Indeed! And until then, there’s loads to dissect and discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllOfTheHours Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 7 On 3/30/2019 at 2:27 AM, Juligen said: THEIR DREAMS COMPLETING EACH OTHERS Dreams of home and family “She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. "If I give him Sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as Valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.” A STORM OF SWORDS, Sansa II “I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decide to live his life on the wall. I could name him Robb”..- A STORM OF SWORDS, Jon XII Rebuilding Winterfell…… The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. A Storm of Swords - Jon XII -------------------------------------------------- There is so much foreshadow for this relationship that I always shake my head when people say there is nothing in the books about this romance. For me this is the most compelling evidence. GRRM wrote their goals to match. Over the past five books, he made their dreams lead to the same place. Jon and Sansa both want to rebuild Winterfell and birth more Starks (named after Ned, Robb, Bran, and Rickon). Further, they both preface their interest in children as leading to/being part of a loving marriage. I remember first talking about this in 2015 and people said there was absolutely no way Sansa was ever going to return to Winterfell, that she would die in the South like Lady, and how she and Jon could never get along because they hated each other. Then a few months later, in the show, Sansa returned to Winterfell. Now, she is still alive and she and Jon are good co-leaders. The show is not the books, but the show is taking the same broad strokes towards GRRM's ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Jon is absolutely Aragorn but with more ruling and battle experience before his parentage is revealed. Aragorn hadn't done much when he found out he was king at age 20. Aragorn meets Arwen who is the daughter (Sansa) of his adoptive uncle Elrond (Ned) who raised him. By "uncle" I mean sixty generations removed. Aragorn is only able to marry a woman of such high status like Arwen because of his parentage reveal. I dont want Jon to fall for his favorite sister. Thats Targaryen/Jaime/Cersei shit. I want them to reunite having a minimal sibling relationship as Cogman describes: “..THEY WEREN’T CLOSE as siblings. THEY WEREN’T CLOSE when they were kids. They had NO REAL RELATIONSHIP. Sansa DIDN’T PARTICULARLY LIKE Jon. They had NOTHING TO SAY TO EACH OTHER. They had NO WAY TO RELATE TO EACH OTHER… So it was fun to explore the fact that the first Stark siblings that we reunite WEREN’T EVEN PARTICULARLY CLOSE…” (x) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xemi Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 20 hours ago, Cas Stark said: Jon will not marry anyone. In the best case, he lives and stays in the North; in the more likely case, he dies sacrificing himself for the greater good. Nope, Jon will rule Westeros after defeating the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Mercia Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Jon at the moment is focussed on Dany, as much as he's focussed on anything but the WW. But I think if Dany dies, Sansa will be his Queen. Their scenes together are usually very angsty, arguing like a married couple, giving deep sighs and answering in soft tones. Plus the hand-holding which the camera focuses on for some reason. From their very first speaking scene (after the hug, where Sansa eats soup) Jon seems transfixed by her - at first I thought he was just mesmerised by the sight of a family member. But Sophie looked beautiful in that shot, and it's almost like Jon can't take his eyes off her, then gives her a goofy half-smile when she speaks to him. (A lot like the one Edd gives her later when they're all eating together, and she says something about there being more important things than the food. You can tell he's smitten.) They also tend to shoot their scenes so that Sophie doesn't always tower over Kit (not very successfully), which of course might have nothing to do with romance, and just be giving the King a little boost in stature. Or maybe this is all in my head and I just think they look cute together. I'm almost embarrassed at the level of fanfic I've written above, but whatever. I mean I'm not saying it's likely, but if it happens I won't be surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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