Robert's Kingsguard

[Impbread]

On 4/5/2019 at 5:23 PM, nyser1 said:

People speak of them as if they are incompetent peasants armed with weapons. They are not the great knights that they should be but I doubt that even the weakest of them is purely arrow fodder.

This. Someone made a good point it's hard to choose five kingsguard at once usually you only have to replace one at a time it would be extremely difficult to find five worthy King's Guard members at once that are willing to take the job. In my opinion the most important part of a King's Guard member is if he will die for his king or not. It does not matter how good you are with a sword if you run away when it's time to lay down your life.

[HexMachina]

8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Barristan was present at Robert's death. If he could have stopped it he would have.

Well, that's your call I guess. It's a judgement call. But there's no surprise that a guy who fought against you doesn't end up as your bodyguard? Surely?

 

It would be a fair point if Robert hadnt kept Barristan and Jaime in the Kingsguard. Ome fought against him until the very end, the other murdered the last King he was supposed to protect. 

[Lord Varys]

On 4/6/2019 at 1:56 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Most of these are spot on, but we know Blount's reputation to the letter.

The man is craven, and a good thing. Though fat, aging, and never more than ordinary, Ser Boros could still hack him into bloody pieces. But Boros does not know that, and neither must the rest they feared the man I was; the man I am they'd pity.

When Jaime - who is a rather arrogant prick - dismisses somebody doesn't mean he is, say, as bad as I am at the chivalric arts. It certainly doesn't do Blount much credit that he supposedly was never more than ordinary, but ordinary in Jaime's eyes can still be reasonably good.#

But in the end it is really only Blount that is really bad. Trant is growing old but was/is reasonably good. Greenfield should have been good or else Tywin would have likely never suggested him (assuming he was a Lannister suggestion), Oakheart isn't that bad either, and Moore was actually very good. He is the second deadliest man in Robert's KG after Jaime himself - at least according to him - which makes him actually both a very competent and dangerous fighter. And Selmy and Jaime were never that bad.

In the end one has to say only Blount and Jaime (for reasons that have nothing to do with his prowess at arms) are bad choices for KG. The others are pretty good to at least adequate.

And we have to keep in mind that even the great Seven of Jaehaerys I would have grown old. Even Ryam Redwyne and Duncan the Tall would have started to suck at their jobs when their hair and teeth started to fall out...

[Chris Mormont]

On 4/5/2019 at 2:48 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Knights are chosen. It's obviously up to the knight to accept the appointment or not (in theory anyway), but the king wouldn't just advertise the vacancy and see who applies. A space would come up, the king, his Hand and SC would discuss the viable candidates, and pick who they consider would be the best for the job.

Jaime wasn't "drafted" as such. He and Cersei discussed in between shags getting him the job. How Cersei managed to plant that seed is unknown, but Aerys got it into his head, offered it, and Jaime accepted. Tywin was furious, but Tywin wasn't asked.

I didn't think Knights had the option of refusing the King. 

As for Jamie, I thought Aerys chose him to spite Tywin and deprive him of his heir.

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

I didn't think Knights had the option of refusing the King. 

As for Jamie, I thought Aerys chose him to spite Tywin and deprive him of his heir.

They likely did have the option, theoretically at least, of refusing the King, just as Ned could have refused to be Hand. The repercussions of refusing would of course depend on the King in question. Robert might be a bit hurt but thats probably about it. Aerys might arrest you as a traitor and burn you. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

When Jaime - who is a rather arrogant prick - dismisses somebody doesn't mean he is, say, as bad as I am at the chivalric arts. It certainly doesn't do Blount much credit that he supposedly was never more than ordinary, but ordinary in Jaime's eyes can still be reasonably good.#

But in the end it is really only Blount that is really bad.

Well before his maiming, sure. After, no that doesn't fix the text at all. Jaime is literally in the process of re-evaluating his fighting ability. He's actually lamenting how far he has to go to even reach Blount's level. He does the same thing later with Ilyn Payne. In ASoS, AFFC, and ADWD he's pretty spot on with his judgments and isn't exactly shy about handing out praise either, in both his internal monologue and verbally to other characters. That he thinks Blount never should have been given his white cloak back just underscores how bad Blount's appointment was in the first place.

Everything we know about Blount is that he's a drunk, coward who isn't a very good fighter. It's not like Jaime is alone in his judgment either. Whichever Kettleblack clearly doesn't think Blount can fight either.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

They likely did have the option, theoretically at least, of refusing the King, just as Ned could have refused to be Hand. The repercussions of refusing would of course depend on the King in question. Robert might be a bit hurt but thats probably about it. Aerys might arrest you as a traitor and burn you. 

I don't think that being chosen to the Kingsguard is something you have to accept. This is a commitment that makes only sense - as Aerys II realized after he had made Jaime his KG - if the monarch can trust into the loyalty and devotion of his Kingsguard. If that isn't a guaranteed you should not exactly hand such a person sharp blades and the right to use them in your presence...

The standard procedure seems to be - if there are no tourneys or other great events to decide who joined the KG (Robert certainly could have used such an event to fill the five empty spots after the Rebellion) - that a list of worthy candidates is drawn up by the Lord Commander (in his absence by other court officials) which is then presented to the king who chooses a new White Sword from the list, more than just one, or ignores the list and suggestions to make his own calls.

One also expect that the men honored by being on such a list are asked whether they want to serve on the KG if the king were to choose them before he actually chooses them.

Usually, one assumes, that the men from great houses who are considered to join the KG are younger sons or (distant) cousins of the main branch, rather than heirs or the presumptive heirs of heirs, since chances are pretty low that the heir of a great house would join the KG under any circumstances. That is highly unusual - Barristan Selmy, for instance, changed the career path laid out for him when he decided to become a Kingsguard.

In that sense, one assumes, that people have checked whether a promising candidate actually wants to become a KG when the offer is made. Not to mention that part of being on the list of becoming a KG is likely telling people at court that you want to be a KG. The Lord Commander or other court officials would not just draw up a list of great knights and then arbitrarily ask them whether they want to become KG - they would only draw up such a list from the great knights who they expect/know to want to be KG.

One can certainly imagine a guy fooled by only learning that the king wants him as a KG when he publicly asks him to swear his vows, but that is not something that would happen due to the king's later dependence on the KG. Also, the idea that the king would be deeply hurt if a man who is sworn to marry his betrothed and/or inherit his father's lands and titles rejects the offer to become a KG doesn't sound very convincing to me. Joining the KG is a personal commitment comparable to taking the black, becoming a knight, septon, or maester. It is not something somebody can demand of another person under normal circumstances.

The Jaime case is very odd for a number of reasons:

First, it strikes us as very odd that Cersei would actually come up with the idea to make her brother a KG to be close to him. She clearly didn't think about what this would do to her father, meaning it is not very likely she came up with the idea herself.

Second, it is also very strange that Aerys II didn't think the thing through, since he realized too late that Lord Tywin's son would now protect him day and night. This implies that Aerys II didn't come up with the idea, either.

Third, it is very odd that Jaime as a minor could join the KG at all and/or without his father's permission. To accomplish this and to prevent Tywin from learning what was going on in time to stop it implies that a lot of work was done behind the scenes.

One can see Varys feeding the idea both to Cersei and to Aerys II to break Tywin's hold on the court, but we'll have to wait and see whether that's the case. I'm pretty sure we don't even remotely know everything there is to know about Jaime joining the KG.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That he thinks Blount never should have been given his white cloak back just underscores how bad Blount's appointment was in the first place.

Sure, Blount is really the worst of Robert's KG by far, but he is still a Kingsguard which implies he cannot have been a complete fuck-up. Those men must meet some minimum standards. Osmund Kettleblack isn't the greatest knight in the world, either, but he is more than just adequate, one imagines. And Balon Swann might actually be pretty good.

7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Everything we know about Blount is that he's a drunk, coward who isn't a very good fighter. It's not like Jaime is alone in his judgment either. Whichever Kettleblack clearly doesn't think Blount can fight either.

Yeah, but Blount certainly worsened over the years. One imagines he was at least adequate during the Rebellion. I think the idea was tossed around that he may have been one of the champions the mystery knight faced at Harrenhal. That could mean he was a pretty competent jouster, at least back then and/or possibly only at that day.

Jorah Mormont is not a very renowned or great knight, either, but he got his day in the sun, too. And if one such day can win you a Hightower bride then it also can win you the white cloak of a Kingsguard - under the right circumstances.

And one has to keep in mind that things have a tendency to look better or worse with hindsight in mind. Boros Blount is really a disgrace when Jaime meets him again in ASoS, and this may color his thoughts on the man. Sort of like Pycelle's infirmity and cadaverous looks cause both Cersei and Kevan view him as a done and incompetent man, being too focused on the past, etc. when this is not necessarily true.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:08 PM, Igziabeher said:

Stupid question maybe, but outside of Barristan and Jaime(who are holdovers from Aerys' Kingsguard, why are any of these guys worthy of being Kingsguard in the first place?  It seemed like when the Targaryens were in charge the Kingsguard are a proud and esteemed honor filled with great knights, but Robert's Kingsguard seem to be mediocre warriors at best and cravens at their worst.  All you have to do is look through the Stornlands, Westerlands, Reach and Vale and you could probably find a dozen knights at least who are better fit for Robert's Kingsguard and knowing his wife is a Lannister and his hand is an Arryn, he should've had his pick of the best of those 3 Kingdoms alone(counting his own).  Is there any more insight into who was put in charge of picking out Robert's KG or why the men who made it up are there in the first place?  Comparing Whent, Hightower and Dayne to Trant, Blount and Moore is not even a competition.  Maybe Arys Oakhart is a step above those guys, but still it just seems to be lacking completely.  And being a usurper who may not have fully trusted some of his people, he probably should have made sure his KG was far above and beyond knowing he could be crossed at anytime.

 

Jaime and Barristan are the only two holdovers.  The other 5 died in the rebellion.  Darry & Lewyn Martell died at the Trident, and Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, & Arthur Dayne died at the Tower of Joy.  As for what the members of Robert's KG did to earn it the answer is nothing.  They were just another example of Robert being an idiot.  For someone who hated Cersei, he tended to listen to her quite a bit, or at the least let her have her way. While Mandon Moore is perhaps deserving (Jaime considers him to be deadly in TCOK), the rest (possibly excluding Oakheart) are merely stooges loyal to Cersei.  On one occasion Robert even successfully allowed Cersei to argue against a knight from the Stormlands.  There's also that I cant fathom Jon Arryn offering posts to anyone who fought as a loyalist immediately after the war.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

On 4/8/2019 at 6:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that being chosen to the Kingsguard is something you have to accept. This is a commitment that makes only sense - as Aerys II realized after he had made Jaime his KG - if the monarch can trust into the loyalty and devotion of his Kingsguard. If that isn't a guaranteed you should not exactly hand such a person sharp blades and the right to use them in your presence...

The standard procedure seems to be - if there are no tourneys or other great events to decide who joined the KG (Robert certainly could have used such an event to fill the five empty spots after the Rebellion) - that a list of worthy candidates is drawn up by the Lord Commander (in his absence by other court officials) which is then presented to the king who chooses a new White Sword from the list, more than just one, or ignores the list and suggestions to make his own calls.

One also expect that the men honored by being on such a list are asked whether they want to serve on the KG if the king were to choose them before he actually chooses them.

Usually, one assumes, that the men from great houses who are considered to join the KG are younger sons or (distant) cousins of the main branch, rather than heirs or the presumptive heirs of heirs, since chances are pretty low that the heir of a great house would join the KG under any circumstances. That is highly unusual - Barristan Selmy, for instance, changed the career path laid out for him when he decided to become a Kingsguard.

In that sense, one assumes, that people have checked whether a promising candidate actually wants to become a KG when the offer is made. Not to mention that part of being on the list of becoming a KG is likely telling people at court that you want to be a KG. The Lord Commander or other court officials would not just draw up a list of great knights and then arbitrarily ask them whether they want to become KG - they would only draw up such a list from the great knights who they expect/know to want to be KG.

One can certainly imagine a guy fooled by only learning that the king wants him as a KG when he publicly asks him to swear his vows, but that is not something that would happen due to the king's later dependence on the KG. Also, the idea that the king would be deeply hurt if a man who is sworn to marry his betrothed and/or inherit his father's lands and titles rejects the offer to become a KG doesn't sound very convincing to me. Joining the KG is a personal commitment comparable to taking the black, becoming a knight, septon, or maester. It is not something somebody can demand of another person under normal circumstances.

The Jaime case is very odd for a number of reasons:

First, it strikes us as very odd that Cersei would actually come up with the idea to make her brother a KG to be close to him. She clearly didn't think about what this would do to her father, meaning it is not very likely she came up with the idea herself.

Second, it is also very strange that Aerys II didn't think the thing through, since he realized too late that Lord Tywin's son would now protect him day and night. This implies that Aerys II didn't come up with the idea, either.

Third, it is very odd that Jaime as a minor could join the KG at all and/or without his father's permission. To accomplish this and to prevent Tywin from learning what was going on in time to stop it implies that a lot of work was done behind the scenes.

One can see Varys feeding the idea both to Cersei and to Aerys II to break Tywin's hold on the court, but we'll have to wait and see whether that's the case. I'm pretty sure we don't even remotely know everything there is to know about Jaime joining the KG.

While a minor by our standards, in Westerosi  culture Jaime was 16 and as such had reached his age of majority aka adulthood.  Cersei came up with the ploy for him to join because at this point she was still operating under the assertion that Tywin would find a way to make her queen (which he ultimately did but not the way she thought) & therefore they'd be in close proximity.  AS for her not thinking about her father, she was....just not in the way of him being hurt by the situation.  Allegedly Tywin (or maybe it was mostly Hoster) was trying to orchestrate a match between Jaime and Lysa Tully that was the whole reason Jaime needed the ploy in the first place. So while Cersei may not have considered how Tywin would feel about loosing Jaime as his heir, she was certainly aware that taking Jaime off the board disrupted Tywins plans & she didnt care.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, AvengerofWinterfell said:

While a minor by our standards, in Westerosi  culture Jaime was 16 and as such had reached his age of majority aka adulthood.  Cersei came up with the ploy for him to join because at this point she was still operating under the assertion that Tywin would find a way to make her queen (which he ultimately did but not the way she thought) & therefore they'd be in close proximity.  AS for her not thinking about her father, she was....just not in the way of him being hurt by the situation.  Allegedly Tywin (or maybe it was mostly Hoster) was trying to orchestrate a match between Jaime and Lysa Tully that was the whole reason Jaime needed the ploy in the first place. So while Cersei may not have considered how Tywin would feel about loosing Jaime as his heir, she was certainly aware that taking Jaime off the board disrupted Tywins plans & she didnt care.

Jaime was still 15 when he joined the KG.