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Igziabeher

Robert's Kingsguard

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18 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

We know that Lyn Corbray was one such. Maybe he would have been just as poor a choice given how corruptible he is by the time we see him in the Vale, but there must have been others in this vein.

Corbray also fought for Aerys at Gulltown, then changed sides. That illustrates one of the problems Robert faced - half the decent knights in the Kingdoms fought against him in the Rebellion.

 

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16 minutes ago, Mordant Jester said:

Can we think of any candidates from the source material?

We know of Sir Richard Horpe  (one of my favorite minor characters):

Quote

"Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it, but it is battle he lusts for. As a squire he dreamed of a white cloak, but Cersei Lannister spoke against him and Robert passed him over. Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing."

I am not sure at the time how many potential candidates would be of age, or would they accept if being needed to inherit their lands, but Blackfish, Rolland Storm, Beric Dondarrion come to mind as good choices.

Edited by Eltharion21

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14 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Blackfish

Oddly overlooked wasn't he? Plot reasons probably.

16 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Beric Dondarrion

Beric's what, 22 in GOT? Would have been too young. Plus, he was heir/lord of a major House.

 

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Possible candidates:

 

Lyn Corbray

Addam Marbrand- heir apparent to Ashemark, so probably not.

Benjen Stark- second son(at the time of Robert's crowning)

Bonifer Hasty- Stormlander

Brynden Tully- brother of LP of Riverlands

Cortnay Penrose- Stormlander

Emmon Cuy- one of Renly's rainbow guard

Lyle Crakehall- Westerlands

Nestor Royce- Vale

Robar Royce- Vale

Waymar Royce- Vale, joins NW

Take your pick of anyone from the Hightower, Redwyne or Florent families.

Beric Dondarrion- lord of a house, so doubtful

Jorah Mormont- see above

 

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1 minute ago, Igziabeher said:

Lyn Corbray

Fought against Robert in the Rebellion

 

1 minute ago, Igziabeher said:

Benjen Stark- second son(at the time of Robert's crowning)

Not a knight (and too young I think?)

2 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

Emmon Cuy

Too young at the time?

4 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

Robar Royce- Vale

Waymar Royce- Vale, joins NW

Don't know if either of them were even born. Certainly too young.

4 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

Take your pick of anyone from the Hightower, Redwyne or Florent families.

All fought for Aerys.

4 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

Beric Dondarrion- lord of a house, so doubtful

Too young.

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The Rebellion is over.  Why not bring a Reach knight in if their lord has bent the knee already?

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2 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

The Rebellion is over.  Why not bring a Reach knight in if their lord has bent the knee already?

Fair enough, but I think they would have to weigh the reliability of the individual. The person having fought against them in the rebellion would be a check in the No column.

2 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

That same argument could be used to eliminate Barriston Selmy, yet he's still there.

A fair point, but I think that they would know that Barristan, if he accepted the pardon and agreed to continue serving, would do so honourably. It would all depend on the individual suggested.

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15 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

Jorah Mormont- see above

Also (just thought of this), Jorah wasn't a knight at that point. He was knighted following Balon's rebellion.

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People speak of them as if they are incompetent peasants armed with weapons. They are not the great knights that they should be but I doubt that even the weakest of them is purely arrow fodder.

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2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Corbray also fought for Aerys at Gulltown, then changed sides. That illustrates one of the problems Robert faced - half the decent knights in the Kingdoms fought against him in the Rebellion.

Is this a disqualification? I assume part of the idea was to stitch the realm back together. Corbray ended up on Robert's side and that should count for something. Barristan Selmy fought for Aerys and he was accepted back into the Kingsguard. Boros Blount is from the Crownlands, so I assume his house would have been on Aerys's side. Also, Preston Greenfield is from the Westerlands, and while they "fought" for Robert, the loyalty of House Lannister and their lieges is quite suspect. Disqualifying the knights of the realm who were loyal to throne would only serve to fracture the realm further. Maybe that's what did indeed happen, but that doesn't make it a smart move.

The Blackfish is an interesting one. Considering what he's been doing since the rebellion as the Knight of the Bloody Gate, it seems like it would have made a lot of sense for Jon Arryn to recommend him. I wonder if Hoster Tully had a hand in him not being chosen.

I also agree that Bonifer Hasty although he doesn't seem like a man with a lot of friends, so who would have recommended him.

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

We know of Sir Richard Horpe  (one of my favorite minor characters):

Quote

"Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it, but it is battle he lusts for. As a squire he dreamed of a white cloak, but Cersei Lannister spoke against him and Robert passed him over. Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing."

 

Horpe's another interesting one. And the fact that Cersei spoke out against him gives us a clue as to how the selections were made. However, Stannis' opinion that he is too fond of killing makes me wonder if there would have been much difference between him and the likes of Mandon Moore.

 

33 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

People speak of them as if they are incompetent peasants armed with weapons. They are not the great knights that they should be but I doubt that even the weakest of them is purely arrow fodder.

Other than Boros Blount who seemed like a pretty sorry excuse for a knight, the biggest problem with the other three was that they seemed a bit more corruptible than a Kingsguard ought to be. Competence as a fighter is important for sure, but I think loyalty is perhaps even more important for a Kingsguard.

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On 3/29/2019 at 11:59 PM, CAllDSmith said:

We know that the Baratheon Kingsguard has had eight total members since he took the throne including Oakheart's predecessor. 

Of the Eight 

1. Barristan oldie and a goldie 

2. Jaime, no one's making him take the black so he has to stay. 

3. Boros Blount, fat and overweight when we see him, but it's been implied in some places around here that he might have actually been pretty good when he was thirty and is now worn out. 

4. Mandon Moore, second deadliest man on the KG, and Varys notes he has no other life than his duty. Solid pick. 

5. Meryn Trant, survived a fight with the First Sword of Braavos (seriously there were a lot of weapons for Syrio to roll and grab there living is an achievement.) But also from one of the principal houses of the Stormlands. Not terrible, but after almost a year of war you're probably short a few heroes. 

6. Preston Greenfield, probably a political appointment. Never really gets in a fight. Does have the sense of chivalry to go back for the High Septon and decent jouster. Seriously naming five other guys is pretty hard. 

7. Oakheart's predecessor, we know nothing about him, (I personally guess Silveraxe.) 

9. Arys, getting beat by Areo aside he seems to be a pretty good knight. Considering his jousting prowess the Areo fight is probably a fluke case of Suicide by axe. 

Most of these are spot on, but we know Blount's reputation to the letter.

The man is craven, and a good thing. Though fat, aging, and never more than ordinary, Ser Boros could still hack him into bloody pieces. But Boros does not know that, and neither must the rest they feared the man I was; the man I am they'd pity.

 

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14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Is this a disqualification?

I don't think it's an instant disqualification, but it's surely a factor? The Kingsgard are *meant* to be devoted to the King's safety. Obviously someone who has been trying to kill him for a year may have a question mark written on his application form. Does it instantly disqualify him? No. But he needs other qualities to qualify him (like Barristan did).

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Corbray ended up on Robert's side and that should count for something.

It probably did. On the other hand, he's a nasty piece of work. That probably counted for something too.

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Boros Blount is from the Crownlands, so I assume his house would have been on Aerys's side.

Odds are yes, but who knows? People didn't simply follow their LPs in the Rebellion. Many did, some didn't.

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Also, Preston Greenfield is from the Westerlands, and while they "fought" for Robert, the loyalty of House Lannister and their lieges is quite suspect.

True. But in the case of a KG candidate, I imagine it's less about their LP's attitude, and more about theirs. Is Tywin's refusal to pick sides in the rehbellion until the very end a good indicator of how Greenfield will react if the King is threatened? I doubt it. He also showed his worth in giving his life in the defence of the High Septon. There's something to that man.

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Disqualifying the knights of the realm who were loyal to throne would only serve to fracture the realm further. Maybe that's what did indeed happen, but that doesn't make it a smart move.

You have to weigh it. Yeah, appointing a knight from a house who fought for the other side would give a signal that by-gones are by-gones. But pardoning Barristan and Jaime does that anyway. Appointing people you know will be loyal is surely also a major factor? Yes, sometimes KG appointments will be political considerations, but not solely that. They also need people who can be trusted to do the job.

 

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

The Blackfish is an interesting one. Considering what he's been doing since the rebellion as the Knight of the Bloody Gate, it seems like it would have made a lot of sense for Jon Arryn to recommend him. I wonder if Hoster Tully had a hand in him not being chosen.

It's plot reasons mate. The Blackfish is Robb's right hand man. He's set up to be so.

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Other than Boros Blount who seemed like a pretty sorry excuse for a knight, the biggest problem with the other three was that they seemed a bit more corruptible than a Kingsguard ought to be. Competence as a fighter is important for sure, but I think loyalty is perhaps even more important for a Kingsguard.

And who knows how people will turn out? I'm willing to believe that the likes of Trant and Blount weren't scum before they took the white cloak. They were corrupted in time.

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20 hours ago, nyser1 said:

People speak of them as if they are incompetent peasants armed with weapons. They are not the great knights that they should be but I doubt that even the weakest of them is purely arrow fodder.

I wouldn't say they are completely incompetent.  I would just say most of them are less than morally fit to fulfill the roles of a Kingsguard member.  Things like the Hand of the King getting attacked at the Blackwater or even Robert's death may have been avoidable if they had less corrupt KG members.

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11 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't think it's an instant disqualification, but it's surely a factor? The Kingsgard are *meant* to be devoted to the King's safety. Obviously someone who has been trying to kill him for a year may have a question mark written on his application form. Does it instantly disqualify him? No. But he needs other qualities to qualify him (like Barristan did).

It probably did. On the other hand, he's a nasty piece of work. That probably counted for something too.

Odds are yes, but who knows? People didn't simply follow their LPs in the Rebellion. Many did, some didn't.

True. But in the case of a KG candidate, I imagine it's less about their LP's attitude, and more about theirs. Is Tywin's refusal to pick sides in the rehbellion until the very end a good indicator of how Greenfield will react if the King is threatened? I doubt it. He also showed his worth in giving his life in the defence of the High Septon. There's something to that man.

You have to weigh it. Yeah, appointing a knight from a house who fought for the other side would give a signal that by-gones are by-gones. But pardoning Barristan and Jaime does that anyway. Appointing people you know will be loyal is surely also a major factor? Yes, sometimes KG appointments will be political considerations, but not solely that. They also need people who can be trusted to do the job.

 

It's plot reasons mate. The Blackfish is Robb's right hand man. He's set up to be so.

And who knows how people will turn out? I'm willing to believe that the likes of Trant and Blount weren't scum before they took the white cloak. They were corrupted in time.

He did lead the charge and break the Dornish and defeat Lewyn Martell. He clearly went all in for Robert after Gulltown and his pardon by Jon so i dont see this as a disqualifier at all

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8 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

He did lead the charge and break the Dornish and defeat Lewyn Martell. He clearly went all in for Robert after Gulltown and his pardon by Jon so i dont see this as a disqualifier at all

I don't think Ser Lyn was all-in for Robert. It's more like he was a bloodthirsty sonofabitch and just wanted to throw down, kill as many people as possible, and secure personal glory and/or wealth.  He simply happened to be on Bobby B's side at that moment.

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20 hours ago, Igziabeher said:

Things like the Hand of the King getting attacked at the Blackwater or even Robert's death may have been avoidable if they had less corrupt KG members.

Barristan was present at Robert's death. If he could have stopped it he would have.

15 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

He did lead the charge and break the Dornish and defeat Lewyn Martell. He clearly went all in for Robert after Gulltown and his pardon by Jon so i dont see this as a disqualifier at all

Well, that's your call I guess. It's a judgement call. But there's no surprise that a guy who fought against you doesn't end up as your bodyguard? Surely?

 

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Let's not forget though that the best fighter and KG that was the most true to his vows was the one guarding hij when he died.

 

 

Yes I know he was drunk and ordered Barristan to stand aside but the others protected as well enough  as needed until the end.

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The make up of the guards was a reflection of the moral decay during Robert's reign.  Robert is more sane than Aerys but the kingdom was much poorer.  A bad king whose content to stay in the background and let others manage his kingdom is better than a meddler who doesn't know what he's doing.  

Fighting ability is important but less than complete loyalty.  A bodyguard must be loyal at all times to the person they guard.  Oakheart and Jaime were not.  Jaime was sleeping with the queen behind Robert's back.  The character of the people getting the job were poor.  Barristan should have never taken that pardon from Robert.  But his story is one of redemption and it's never too late to make things right.  Joffrey opened his eyes and at the tender age of 61 realized his mistake in serving Robert.  Hightower, Whent, Darry, and Dayne died in the service of Aerys.  It is poetic if Barristan dies in the service of his queen, Daenerys Stormborn.   He will have died doing the right thing.    

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