Jump to content
CAllDSmith

Think I found a little bird

Recommended Posts

Quote

Marei was a cool, pale, delicate girl Tyrion had noticed once or twice. Green eyes and porcelain skin, long straight silvery hair, very lovely but too solemn by half.

Silver hair in King's Landing really means only one of three things 1. She's a foreigner 2. She's descended from the Targaryens or 3. She's descended from the Velaryons. While option three isn't that unlikely, option two should be notable due to the only person she really could conceivably be descended from being Aerys. Jaehaerys certainly wasn't whoring around with his bad health and the Longwaters don't seem the type to leave more bastards. All in all a pretty normal whore at first. Then we learn this on the next page: 

Quote

And Marei is teaching us to read,

Considering whores learning to read is what got Orwyle caught in F&B (and all the other parallels and foreshadowing in that book.) we can certainly determine that whores being able to read is an oddity. But, there is somethings about this particular brothel. First, it's owned by Chataya, not Littlefinger, one of the few in the city. Second, it has a secret passage that was used by "a previous Hand" for discrete meetings with whores. (This Hand is sometimes theorized to be Tywin). Third, Varys knows about this passage and this brothel. So I put forward this not particularly tinfoil theory: 

Marei is one of Varys spies and a little bird, which is why she knows how to read and seems to be of some influence within the brothel. She's possibly one of the ones who came over from Essos since we never hear her speak. She also might have been Tywin's lover at some point because that could be a way that Varys knew about the passage. Finally, I would also like to put forward that Dancy was possibly a spy for Littlefinger. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't you think this girl attracts too much attention?  A spy blends in and doesn't draw attention to herself.  People in Essos are more educated.  The free people are.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really. She's a whore at a brothel. Spies IRL were things like baseball stars and actresses. People talk to whores, people talk around whores. I guarantee you most people who read these books could not name another whore at Chataya's besides Chataya and Alayaya and she's even more overlooked by people in universe. Since she never actually shows up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If she's a little bird, she would have no tongue, right? So how does she teach people to read?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

1. She's a foreigner 2. She's descended from the Targaryens or 3. She's descended from the Velaryons.

4. she’s descended from Celtigars

5. She’s descended from Qoheryses

6. She’s descended from some obscure Valyrians from some small house that lives in Dragonstone, Claw Isle or Driftmarkor any of the Valyrians or any valyrian commoner that came with the Targaryens or were in DS, DM or CI before Targaryens.

7. She’s descended from some dragonseed. 

8. She’s descended from a Dayne

9. She’s descended from a Hightower

10. My favourite! She’s Ser Vardis Egen’s daughter!!!

Quote

Vardis is heavily built, with a square, plain face, and silver hair. He is humorless.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

4. she’s descended from Celtigars

 

While being descended from Valyria they have not been noted to intermarry with Houses Targaryen or Velaryon and none of the Celtigars that appear in canon works are given the description of having the silvery-blond or silver-gold hair. They are typically described as the lesser of the Valyrian houses so we cannot take for granted the idea that they still have the hair. 

 

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

5. She’s descended from Qoheryses

 

A House that has been extinct for over two hundred years is not even worth considering as a theory. 

30 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

6. She’s descended from some obscure Valyrians from some small house that lives in Dragonstone, Claw Isle or Driftmarkor any of the Valyrians or any valyrian commoner that came with the Targaryens or were in DS, DM or CI before Targaryens.

Obscure as in there is no evidence for their existence? Especially since it's explicitly stated only T,V,C and Baratheon are descended from Valyria? Also their hair and eyes are obviously recessive traits that only continued due to inbreeding. Valyrian commoners most likely don't have the hair anymore. And to counter the inevitable Black Betha argument, it's entirely possible/fairly likely she's descended from one of Bloodraven's two sisters, just based on the Law of Conservation of Detail. 

 

34 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

7. She’s descended from some dragonseed. 

This theory runs into the same issue as 6 as well as its own issues. Firstly, this would count as descended from House Targaryen would it not? So it's covered by part one. Also it inherits the same issue from that one. Daeron, Viserys, Aemon, Daemon, Baelor. All of these suspects have been cleared from suspicion. Aegon the IV definitely spread his seed far and wide, but even his Great Bastards aren't consistently Targ colored. There's just as much chance of seeing a Plumm or Penrose randomly have Targ features as for a random peasant. Daeron II wasn't the type, neither was Breakspear or his kids. Maekar wasn't the type either, Daeron, might have but he didn't look Targaryen that much. Aerion certainly could have, which is why he was kept from court and again the trait would not be likely to stick. Rhaegal was busy dancing naked through the halls of the Red Keep, Aerys was reading too many books, Aelor died too young. Duncan wasn't the type, Jaehaerys was too sick, Aerys I've already covered, and Daeron was gay. This also still wouldn't explain how she learned to read. 

 

41 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

8. She’s descended from a Dayne

Of the four Dayne's we have desciptions of one is fourteen, one was a symbol of chivalry and honor, one has black hair, and one hasn't left Dorne.  That combined with the Dornish approach to bastardry would seem to rule this route out. Also, if she's descended from Aerion she's also descended from a DAyne so that's covered.

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

9. She’s descended from a Hightower

This doesn't even make sense. 

 

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

10. My favourite! She’s Ser Vardis Egen’s daughter!!!

Apparently all old men are Targaryens now? 

 

2 hours ago, Seams said:

If she's a little bird, she would have no tongue, right? So how does she teach people to read?

I was using the term "little bird" to specifically refer to the spies Varys has trained, and not just a paid informer. GRRM has also said that the children are "provided" to Varys that way so presumably he does not cut all of their tongues out, since that would be a poor way of gathering information over all. Wex Pyke issues abound, plus a mute whore isn't going to be that good for business. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think she is Varys's little bird, but Petyr Baelish's. She is how Littlefinger finds out about Tyrion and Alayaya, and how he supplants Varys in Cersei's trust

Quote

I don’t depend on the eunuch for everything, as you do. I have my own ways of finding out things … especially things that people don’t want me to know.”

“What are you trying to say?”

“Only this—I have your little whore.”

(ACoK, Ch.54 Tyrion XII)

Varys advised Cersei to send Ned to the Wall. Littlefinger paid Slynt's goldcloaks to push him forward and put his head on the block. Littlefinger was able to put ideas into Joffrey's head about how a King should act in such circumstances. I don't think Ilyn Payne needed any convincing or bribing - he loves his job. Still, if Varys had held sway, Ned would still be alive.

I'm not sure if Varys regards Littlefinger as an existential threat, or a colleague. Most of the time that he is 'telling' Tyrion things, he is actually sounding out Tyrion for what he believes.

Quote

It was my sister. That was what the oh-so-loyal Lord Janos refused to say. Cersei sent the gold cloaks to that brothel.”
Varys tittered nervously. So he had known all along.
“You left that part out,” Tyrion said accusingly.
“Your own sweet sister,” Varys said, so grief-stricken he looked close to tears. “It is a hard thing to tell a man, my lord. I was fearful how you might take it. Can you forgive me?”

(ACoK, Ch.08 Tyrion II)

Varys knows it was Petyr Baelish that paid Slynt and Slynt's underlings to raid Chataya's and kill Barra. And sent two goldcloaks with a commission sealed with Cersei's seal, and an understanding that the message within was that they were to kill Gendry. Yet he lets Tyrion believe it was Cersei, who has known about Gendry's existence for years, and never attempted to have him or his mother removed from the King's Landing (where they live in the very shadow of the Red Keep), or prevented Robert from providing for him, through Varys. I'm guessing Varys paid Chataya to keep Barra's mother in the brothel and off the market, too ... it doesn't make financial sense for Chataya to do that in the unlikely event that Robert might return to the girl he had used and moved on from.

So even though Varys has acted for a long while in a way that is clearly the opposite of Littlefinger, and very probably has a grievance of his own in the matter, he refrains from shunting the blame Tyrion heaps onto Cersei, to where it rightly belongs.  It's hard to tell if Varys is so circumspect because he fears Baelish, or because he is complicit. In the same chapter, he regains control of the City Watch via Tyrion and Ser Jacelyn, and has the masters of the White Hart and the Moonrunner forestalled, which seem to me more like an attack on Baelish's power base than a friendly move.

I think Baelish has something to do with the Antler men - that his dinners with Lady Tanda were about that. Varys also attempts to interest Tyrion in Lady Tanda's treasons when he sends Janos Slynt to the wall. Tyrion doesn't, but not long after, Varys produces the list of Antler men traders/merchants/craftsmen for Tyrion to arrest. Again, this seems like a direct attack on Baelish's powerbase.

I'm pretty sure that Bronn is also one of Petyr Baelish's little birds

Quote

"it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King’s Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords."

(ASoS, Ch.68 Sansa VI)

Certainly, it wasn't Tyrion that brought him to the notice of Lord Tywin, or reccommended him for a knighthood.

Quote

Bronn grinned. “Now it’s Alayaya and Marei in the same featherbed, with Ser Bronn in the middle.”

(ASoS, Ch.12 Tyrion II)

And I bet, if we ever see Marei again, her platinum hair and green eyes will be set off beautifully by the silver and jade jewellery Tyrion sent via Bronn, supposedly to Alayaya.

When Lords Varys and Baelish are around, there is a lot of slippage between a command being given and it's execution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Walda said:

I don't think she is Varys's little bird, but Petyr Baelish's. She is how Littlefinger finds out about Tyrion and Alayaya, and how he supplants Varys in Cersei's trust

You make a lot of good points and I don't disagree with most of them (especially since most of all this is speculation.) 

But it's the reading that makes me think Marei is Varys's and Dancy is Littlefinger's. Littlefinger doesn't seem the type to train simple whores to read when they aren't often in positions where they will need that skill. (Similar to the brothel situation in Black Sails if you've seen that show.) While I totally agree with you a whore tipped Cersei off to Alayaya I think it is Dancy not Marei for a couple reasons. 1. That set of pearls she lost over the girl 2. Littlefinger obviously has clientele who like scarred backs (or possibly he had down that himself.), but in general it's not seen as an attractive situation. By hurting Chataya's daughter who presumably brings in a good bit of money he is also lowering the value of his biggest competition on the brothel scene. 3. Everything we've said about Littlefinger ingratiating himself to Cersei. 

 

As for the connections between Littleginer, Illyrio, and Varys I think that the tvtropes page for House Baelish actually hits on a few interesting points. 

Picture a lopsided trapezoid if you will with corners at the Fingers (where have I seen it called Midlor's Point by the way?), Braavos, Volantis and King's Landing. You've essentially got the entire economy of half the world within that one space. As tvtropes points out, Hedge-Knight-Baelish had to have basically picked the land closest to Braavos when he purchased/received it and the family can't have been as poor as everyone seems to think because Lord Baelish and Littlefinger both had enough money to pay for their various skills and connections. Meaning they probably have a good line of credit from the Iron Bank and a solid investment portfolio. There's also Dreamfyre's dragon eggs (the ones that almost certainly become Dany's.) to take into account. Jorah and Illyrio are fairly clear about how much they are worth and Illyrio just gives them away on a whim. As World tells us, Pentos is essentially a tribute-state to Braavos at this point. Yet Illyrio has enough wealth to give away dragon eggs and bribe the leaders of Volantis. The question is what economically Illyrio could have done to get the Sealord/Iron Bank who were holding those eggs (most likely a not inconsiderable amount of their capital for building credit.) to transfer them to him. And then there's his lie/retcon of their origin. I personally think that the Iron Bank is running some kind of long con based on Aerys threatening to attack them way back when. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/30/2019 at 9:14 PM, CAllDSmith said:

While being descended from Valyria they have not been noted to intermarry with Houses Targaryen or Velaryon and none of the Celtigars that appear in canon works are given the description of having the silvery-blond or silver-gold hair. They are typically described as the lesser of the Valyrian houses so we cannot take for granted the idea that they still have the hair. 

I won’t even answer the rest after having read this...

Have you read the entiret series?

Have you noticed that most, if not all the Valyrians, even the commoners, share those eyes and hair, so much so that it has been told several times that in Lys, even the commonfolk have those traits, well, commonly. It’s the staple Valyrian look.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I won’t even answer the rest after having read this...

Have you read the entiret series?

Have you noticed that most, if not all the Valyrians, even the commoners, share those eyes and hair, so much so that it has been told several times that in Lys, even the commonfolk have those traits, well, commonly. It’s the staple Valyrian look.

Have you noticed that I specifically said being foreign born was one of the possibilities? And the reason they have the Valyrian look is because there are Valyrians to interbreed with, and few non-Valyrians. Not a single person on modern day Dragonstone has been described with Valyrian features. And by your logic Baelor Breakspear must not have been Valyrian descended because he did not have that look, nor did at least 2/5's of Aegon the Unlikely's children going by the art. And House Baratheon must not be Valyrian descended either. 

Yes I've re"read the entiret series" 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/29/2019 at 5:02 PM, CAllDSmith said:

Silver hair in King's Landing really means only one of three things 1. She's a foreigner 2. She's descended from the Targaryens or 3. She's descended from the Velaryons. While option three isn't that unlikely, option two should be notable due to the only person she really could conceivably be descended from being Aerys. Jaehaerys certainly wasn't whoring around with his bad health and the Longwaters don't seem the type to leave more bastards. All in all a pretty normal whore at first. Then we learn this on the next page: 

Considering whores learning to read is what got Orwyle caught in F&B (and all the other parallels and foreshadowing in that book.) we can certainly determine that whores being able to read is an oddity. But, there is somethings about this particular brothel. First, it's owned by Chataya, not Littlefinger, one of the few in the city. Second, it has a secret passage that was used by "a previous Hand" for discrete meetings with whores. (This Hand is sometimes theorized to be Tywin). Third, Varys knows about this passage and this brothel. So I put forward this not particularly tinfoil theory: 

Marei is one of Varys spies and a little bird, which is why she knows how to read and seems to be of some influence within the brothel. She's possibly one of the ones who came over from Essos since we never hear her speak. She also might have been Tywin's lover at some point because that could be a way that Varys knew about the passage. Finally, I would also like to put forward that Dancy was possibly a spy for Littlefinger. 

If she is working for Varys, I don't know if she would technically be a little bird. Little birds sneak through the secret passages of the Red Keep and listen to conversations. Shunted off to a brothel on the other side of town, Marei would not need to sneak anywhere, just report back on the pillow talk she gets from the high and mighty. To my mind, this has Littlefinger's MO all over it, and I could easily see LF having a motive to plant an agent in the only other brothel in town that caters to the high and mighty.

Marei is also about 20 years old, so she could not have been Tywin's lover if he was the "previous Hand" who installed the secret passage. And since Varys knows about this passage before Tywin returns as Hand, there is no real way to connect Marei, Tywin and Varys' knowledge of the passage.

Interestingly, though, at Kevan's death, the little bird who opens the door to Pycelle's chambers and who later takes part in his murder is described as "solemn" as well. It's kind of an unusual trait for young girls.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If she is working for Varys, I don't know if she would technically be a little bird. Little birds sneak through the secret passages of the Red Keep and listen to conversations. Shunted off to a brothel on the other side of town, Marei would not need to sneak anywhere, just report back on the pillow talk she gets from the high and mighty. To my mind, this has Littlefinger's MO all over it, and I could easily see LF having a motive to plant an agent in the only other brothel in town that caters to the high and mighty.

Marei is also about 20 years old, so she could not have been Tywin's lover if he was the "previous Hand" who installed the secret passage. And since Varys knows about this passage before Tywin returns as Hand, there is no real way to connect Marei, Tywin and Varys' knowledge of the passage.

I'm thinking that Marei was a 'little bird' grown up. I don't think it ever actually says her age, just Dancy's. I also wouldn't put ephebophilia passed Tywin, with all his other issues. I honestly think Dancy is the Littlefinger spy here though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CAllDSmith said:

I'm thinking that Marei was a 'little bird' grown up. I don't think it ever actually says her age, just Dancy's. I also wouldn't put ephebophilia passed Tywin, with all his other issues. I honestly think Dancy is the Littlefinger spy here though. 

Marei is in her early 20s. So she was born in the late 270s, possibly as late as 281. Tywin resigned as Hand in 281. So unless we want to entertain the idea that just before he resigned Tywin created the secret passage into Chataya's in order to get it on with an infant Marei, then I think we can safely dismiss the idea that there is a connection here. Tywin may very well have created the passage, but it was not for Marei.

But here is a possibility: notice the spelling of her name? As far as I can tell, the only people who end their names in "ei" are women from the westerlands: Cersei, Janei Lannister, Kevan's youngest daughter, Amerei Crakehall. . . Mayhaps Marei is the result of whatever tryst Tywin was having with the secret passage? Lannister hair is not usually white-gold, except for Tyrion, whose hair is "so blond it seemed white." So given the possibility that Tyrion may be a Lannister-Targ, might Marei be one as well? Might we even consider the possibility that she is the daughter of Tywin Lannister and Rhaella Targaryen?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Marei is in her early 20s. So she was born in the late 270s, possibly as late as 281. Tywin resigned as Hand in 281. So unless we want to entertain the idea that just before he resigned Tywin created the secret passage into Chataya's in order to get it on with an infant Marei, then I think we can safely dismiss the idea that there is a connection here. Tywin may very well have created the passage, but it was not for Marei.

I'm guessing you're getting that number from the wiki calculation based on her being older than Shae? Because she never actually appears on screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Interestingly, though, at Kevan's death, the little bird who opens the door to Pycelle's chambers and who later takes part in his murder is described as "solemn" as well. It's kind of an unusual trait for young girls.

I think "solemn" is a "lemons" clue. Associated with Targaryens, imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 4/1/2019 at 3:02 AM, CAllDSmith said:

Littlefinger doesn't seem the type to train simple whores to read

I don't think Littlefinger taught Marei to read. That is more a Varys thing.

But I don't think Marei is that simple. I suspect she is another of Lord Velaryon's by-blows, as she has the silver hair and green eyes. She is older than the other girls, and solemn, which makes me think she has come to the game (or at least, to King's Landing) after enjoying a better life, or at least, a life that she had preferred. Maybe one where she was better provided for, and educated. Dancy strikes me more as being a simple common girl on her way up in the world, pleased to have made it to the classiest brothel in the capital.

We know it was Marei that persuaded Dancy to hit on Tyrion.

Quote

“Poor Dancy. She has a fortnight to get my lord to choose her. Elsewise she loses her black pearls to Marei.”

(ACoK, Ch.29 Tyrion VII)

Noticing Alayaya's gains in literacy compared to the other girls (because she was more rested and had more leisure for reading than the other girls while Tyrion was spending his time with Shae) is a tip to Marei that Alayaya isn't hard at work in the secluded turret room. 

But my main reason for suspecting that Marei isn't spying for Varys is:

Quote

 Well below street level, the shaft opened onto a slanting earthen tunnel, where he found Varys waiting with candle in hand.

(ACoK,Ch.15 Tyrion III)

Varys already knows about this. Varys directed Tyrion to Chataya's. He knew Tyrion's need, he knows who Tyrion's whore really is, he knows the secret tunnel, he knows Chataya. He doesn't need Marei to spy on Dancy and Alayaya. He has Chataya, and through her, any other girl in the brothel, on Chataya's recommendation. And of course Chataya would have the most confidence in the discretion of her own daughter, whom she personally has trained from birth. Varys didn't need Marei to turn Alayaya over to Cersei, and if ordered to fetch Tyrion's whore to the Red Keep (as I suspect Tywin did) he would have known they were after Shae.

Chataya's brothel seems to me to be under attack from someone who does need spies to find out who Tyrion is seeing - it has recently been raided by Goldcloaks, a child murdered in it, it's mother too, half a dozen gentlemen retainers killed on it's doorstep. Chataya's supplies of good wine dried up in the King's Landing siege, and after, a whore in it publicly revealed to be the favourite of the Hand and flogged ... Many gentlemen might prefer to visit quieter premises with less public exposure and better booze after these events.

Petyr Baelish is a competing brothel owner with a certain ruthlessness and a purse that pays the Goldcloaks. It's easy to see why he might not lose by Chataya's brothel becoming the public face of King's Landing brothels and wearing the whip for their collective sins. It is easy for me to see that taking a child from it's mother to be threatened with death (killed, in Barra's case) and severely beaten (her own child), would be Petyr Baelish's way of letting Chataya know there is a new master of whispers in town, that she must sell out (her secrets to) or get out (of King's Landing). It is harder for me to understand why Varys would suddenly turn on Chataya this way, or how he would use Marei in these circumstances.

ETA:

6 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

I'm guessing you're getting that number from the wiki calculation based on her being older than Shae? Because she never actually appears on screen.

John might also have deduced Marei's age from the text of the book

Quote

Tyrion stood in the door and drank in the sight of her. Younger than Marei, sweeter than Dancy, more beautiful than Alayaya, she’s all I need and more.

(ACoK,Ch.29 Tyrion VII)

At least in Tyrion's perception, Marei is older than Shae. And no other point of view makes reference to Shae's age, or Marei's, that I know of. Although Marei could of course be much older than Tyrion believes she is - brothels don't attract customers by advertising they have the oldest girls in town.

 

Edited by Walda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But here is a possibility: notice the spelling of her name? As far as I can tell, the only people who end their names in "ei" are women from the westerlands: Cersei, Janei Lannister, Kevan's youngest daughter, Amerei Crakehall. . . Mayhaps Marei is the result of whatever tryst Tywin was having with the secret passage? Lannister hair is not usually white-gold, except for Tyrion, whose hair is "so blond it seemed white." So given the possibility that Tyrion may be a Lannister-Targ, might Marei be one as well? Might we even consider the possibility that she is the daughter of Tywin Lannister and Rhaella Targaryen?

Nice catch on the name. I do lean towards her being Tywin's bastard, but more so with an unnamed whore especially if Tywin was the Hand who created the passage. The red and gold glass windows make me lean that way. 

ACOK Tyrion VII

As the black-skinned girl led him up the stairs, she said, "Poor Dancy. She has a fortnight to get my lord to choose her. Elsewise she loses her black pearls to Marei." 

Marei was a cool, pale, delicate girl Tyrion had noticed once or twice. Green eyes and porcelain skin, long straight silvery hair, very lovely, but too solemn by half. "I'd hate to have the poor child lose her pearls on account of me." 

 

Marei has green eyes, and like Tywin who never smiles, is too solemn. Here, we see she's also ambitious and competitive (pearls) and (Lann the) clever as she's teaching others to read. Tywin is often described as cool or cold. We also have Tyrion and Marei placed in competition with each other which is a very Lannister thing.

Also, if Tywin had an affair with a Targ-looking woman, that would play into his weird Targ fascination and wish for their houses to be joined. 

 

 

Adding because I forgot:
Lannisters tend to have dual/twin natures. Tywin never smiled but Joanna was his smile. When Tywin died (reunited with Joanna again), he smiled. We were introduced to Jaime (laughing joking) and Cersei (dour, taking everything seriously) as two halves. There was Joff (violent, cruel) and Myrcella/Tommen (opposite Joff in about every way). Tyrion has two eye colors, hair colors and is twisted/mashed together, two people in himself. With Marei, we have Dancy in competition for the pearls making them a pair of sorts. 

"Next time, perhaps." Tyrion had no doubt that Dancy would be a lively handful. She was pug-nosed and bouncy, with freckles and a mane of thick red hair that tumbled down past her waist. But he had Shae waiting for him at the manse. 


Notice where Marei is clever, cool, solemn, Dancy is fiery, lively, playful, and doesn't seem as smart.

 

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

Have you noticed that I specifically said being foreign born was one of the possibilities? And the reason they have the Valyrian look is because there are Valyrians to interbreed with, and few non-Valyrians. Not a single person on modern day Dragonstone has been described with Valyrian features. And by your logic Baelor Breakspear must not have been Valyrian descended because he did not have that look, nor did at least 2/5's of Aegon the Unlikely's children going by the art. And House Baratheon must not be Valyrian descended either. 

And yet you’ve said this

 

On 3/30/2019 at 9:14 PM, CAllDSmith said:

They are typically described as the lesser of the Valyrian houses so we cannot take for granted the idea that they still have the hair. 

So being lesser Valyrians, in your mind, could prevent them from retaining the feature. Who are the “higher” Valyrians anyway? Incest was practiced throughout the Valyrian realms, Celtigars may have kept that. If not, do you think Celtigars and Velaryons and Targaryens came to those islands alone? Perhaps they rowed from Valyria to Westeros? A feat Gendry would be envious of! No Targaryens came with their household and since DS was already Valyrian land, there would at least be some Valyrian officials and soldiers there, perhaps even some smaller houses. Claw Isle and Driftmark was held by the Valyrians for a long time as well, so smaller land holders, Valyrian descended household and even commonfolk should be found there.

 

18 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

Yes I've re"read the entiret series" 

Wow, stoop even lower, will you?  Entire. There, happy? Attacking typos...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So being lesser Valyrians, in your mind, could prevent them from retaining the feature. Who are the “higher” Valyrians anyway? Incest was practiced throughout the Valyrian realms, Celtigars may have kept that. If not, do you think Celtigars and Velaryons and Targaryens came to those islands alone? Perhaps they rowed from Valyria to Westeros? A feat Gendry would be envious of! No Targaryens came with their household and since DS was already Valyrian land, there would at least be some Valyrian officials and soldiers there, perhaps even some smaller houses. Claw Isle and Driftmark was held by the Valyrians for a long time as well, so smaller land holders, Valyrian descended household and even commonfolk should be found there.

It is explicitly stated that Velaryon and Targaryen kept the incest, it is also clear by their positions of power that Celtigar is 'lesser' than either House. Especially since one had dragonlords. You say "perhaps", but there is no evidence. Certainly all three houses came over with some amount of slaves, but there is no guarantee that these slaves were Valyrian, or have kept their Valyrian looks consistently through four hundred years of interbreeding with the people of Westeros. Not one person on Dragonstone ,save the Velaryons, are described as having silver-hair in Davos's chapters, and non of the locals are described that way during the series. The Celtigars are never described as having silver-hair in the series so we cannot make the statement that they are currently silver haired. They were more connected to the mainland than any other narrow sea house before the Conquest, claiming dominion over Crackclaw Point. There are plenty of people of Valyrian descent who do not have the Valyrian look (Baelor Breakspear, the Princes Velaryon, Rhaenys Targaryen, House Baratheon, House Plumm, House Penrose, some branches of House Hightower, House Martell, Daeron the Drunken, Rhaenys Targaryen etc.) Simply being of Valyrian descent is not enough proof to say that they display the Valyrian hair color or even carry it. 

 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wow, stoop even lower, will you?  Entire. There, happy? Attacking typos...

I mean if you're going to blatantly refuse to respond/read beyond a point and accuse me of having not read the books, when there  is nothing in the books to support the position that the Celtigars have practiced incest since the Conquest or display the Valyrian hair color I'm gonna respond in kind. You started the mud slinging here. But we both should end it from here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

I'm guessing you're getting that number from the wiki calculation based on her being older than Shae? Because she never actually appears on screen.

That's the best information we have. She can't be much older than Shae because a) the shelf-life of a whore is not that long, and mid-20s was considered fairly old in a feudal society, and b) if she was significantly older than Shae then Tyrion would not make that comparison -- it would be like him saying Septa Lemore is older than Shae as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×