Inheritance rights to the North in the show

[Mladen]

30 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Nowhere on their conversation do they say "disinherit" or "annul all claims" for Sansa though. That would be overkill.

Nowhere did Ned speak about Jon as Lyanna's son and yet he is. The crux of their conversation is that they have to cut off Sansa to make sure the Lannisters don't get the hold in North. It really makes sense. It would be foolish NOT to disinherit her in those situations.

32 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The will is based on so many wrong assumptions anyway. 1) consummated marriage, 2) Bran/Rickon being dead, 3) Jon being Ned's son....since he is not, that pushes him down the inheritance order, at the last position. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell and the most powerful piece on the board right now because she is unmarried, holds the key to the North, and she knows how to play the game.

It remains to be seen how things will move on. Sansa is not Lady of the Winterfell, she is currently Alayne. Not ti mention that Book Sansa and TV Sansa are on the different stages of progress, so we have to be careful about making assumptions regarding her power.

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 minutes ago, Risto said:

so we have to be careful about making assumptions regarding her power.

You're right, I'm so irresponsible and reckless, talking about Sansa as Lady of Winterfell as a possibility in the books! What a crazy fan I must be, thinking she'll gain power like in the show. I guess I should put forward more sensible theories like Daario is Euron or Sansa is Littlefinger's legitimate daughter - not wild crackhead theories like, "Sansa becomes heir to WF." Lets discuss how she's stuck under Littlefinger forever while a non-POV Stark who is barely out of his toddler years takes center stage. FASCINATING

[Mystical]

42 minutes ago, Risto said:

Not ti mention that Book Sansa and TV Sansa are on the different stages of progress, so we have to be careful about making assumptions regarding her power.

That I agree with but only because the books are so much more complex. And there is so much going on that it's hard to predict where the story might actually go. So much is happening in the Vale, and really Westeros, that the story could go anywhere. Will the mountain clans ruin everybody's plans? Will the Targs/fTargs? What's going to happen with Harry the Heir/SR? Or will Sansa get abducted? How will things shake out with LittleFinger? The different factions in the North. What will happen with the will/Howland Reed? And then there are the age problems of almost all the Stark kids. GRRM IMO will need several time jumps if he wants to get any of them in positions of power where they aren't under the thumb of anyone. We don't want a situation like with Rickon because lets face it, Manderly is not just going after him because he loves Starks.

And GRRM might also just change his mind on several character arcs for whatever reason.

However where the show is concerned, the situation is so much easier because there are so few characters within every family which made it easy to wipe out several houses. D&D completely miss the point of the system the characters live in and just do things because 'they made sense creatively'. I don't think the show will match up with the books as far as every character is concerned. They might end up in similar positions, just not like the in the show.

[Kajjo]

On 3/30/2019 at 6:22 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon is no longer king. Furthermore, Winterfell wasn't his to give since it wasn't his seat.

Well, Jon was made king by acclamation, not because of his birth rights to begin with. 

So he is king as long as the people accept him to be king. 

By inheritance there is no "King in the North" anyway. The title, too, was created by acclamation.

Furthermore, even his claim to the Iron Throne is just by birth right as heir of Targaryen. However, the Targaryens acquired this right by war and they lost it by war to Robert Baratheon. All this babble about "true heir" of Daenerys is just an illusion of the past. You want a throne, you have to conquer it. If you conquer it, it doesn't matter whether you have the birth right. If you don't conquer it, it doesn't matter anyway.

[Mystical]

5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Well, Jon was made king by acclamation, not because of his birth rights to begin with. 

So he is king as long as the people accept him to be king.

Doesn't change the fact that neither Jon nor Team Dany see him as the King anymore. Furthermore Sansa greeted Dany with 'your grace' which means that at least on the surface, no one in the North sees Jon as King anymore. If the North had any smarts they would have voted a new person into the position before Dany got there. But this show is written by morons so the characters are morons too.

[teej6]

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You're right, I'm so irresponsible and reckless, talking about Sansa as Lady of Winterfell as a possibility in the books! What a crazy fan I must be, thinking she'll gain power like in the show. I guess I should put forward more sensible theories like Daario is Euron or Sansa is Littlefinger's legitimate daughter - not wild crackhead theories like, "Sansa becomes heir to WF." Lets discuss how she's stuck under Littlefinger forever while a non-POV Stark who is barely out of his toddler years takes center stage. FASCINATING

@Risto is right in stating that we don’t know definitively how Book Sansa’s arc will progress and all we can do is speculate. And might I add he has been a staunch Sansa supporter on this Board for a long time. The theories you mentioned (in bold) are just that, theories and most posters I’ve seen discount them. You on the other hand, keep insisting that Sansa’s arc will turn out in the books the same way as it does in the show. The books can have a different ending for Sansa than the show — she can be regent to Rickon or be Lady of the Vale, or just be happy to live an unassuming life with Sandor. There are several possibilities for Sansa apart from Lady of Winterfell or marrying Jon, which you seem to see as impossible because of the show. Besides the show hasn’t ended Sansa’s arc. We still have one full season to go.

As for Rickon’s importance or lack thereof, if you’ve read the books you’ll know that Davos has been send to find Rickon by probably the second most powerful Lord in the North. I doubt GRRM wrote the whole Manderly/Glover discovery of Rickon to just have him die in the next chapter or two. GRRM, unlike D&D, doesn’t write just for shock and awe. He weaves (or should I say plants) a good story, which has a logical progression.

[Rose of Red Lake]

So what I've learned on this thread: Calling Sansa Lady of Winterfell provokes REACTIONS. Any time I've mentioned the power that Sansa has with that position, I'm corrected for some strange reason.

It sounds like people are struggling to handle this advancement in Sansa's storyline and would rather she not be anywhere near Winterfell at all. This is strange because there are plenty of book hints that she will be Lady of Winterfell and even Queen of Westeros so it's really not that big of a deal. It just sounds like people had really low expectations for her and overestimated Robb's will. 

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

The books can have a different ending for Sansa than the show — she can be regent to Rickon or be Lady of the Vale, or just be happy to live an unassuming life with Sandor.

Regent: ruling through another wild/unruly child king.  

Lady of the Vale: ruling through a wild/unruly child king. 

That's the best you can come up with, as a "Sansa fan"?? Those are awful endgames and offer no narrative closure or catharsis. It sounds like underestimation and also rather mean. She can only rule through kid? A co-equal partnership like Jaehaerys/Alysanne is impossible for her?

Oh, excuse me - I'm reaching to far for this character - I must now discuss the finer details of how her illegal and unconsummated marriage to Tyrion has soiled her forever.

Her arc is about learning how to play her most valuable piece on the board, the key to the North. If she plays it right, she can get everything she wants - family, romantic love, safety, a good political match, Northern rights - with that play. It's great character growth if she can achieve that. She'd do what Robb couldn't.

As for Sandor. The author has mentioned in interviews that he never intended the Hound to be a dashing romantic figure and was surprised by the "SanSan kind of thing." It's not happening. Take a hint from the show. Or just re-read those scenes again and observe how its not romantic. 

[Kajjo]

On 4/1/2019 at 9:29 PM, Mystical said:

If the North had any smarts they would have voted a new person into the position before Dany got there.

This is just nonsense. The great war is directly ahead. Daenerys comes with two dragons. 

There is no sense in all to oppose Daenerys by proclaiming a new King in the North just before her arrival. Do you really think that would promote the cause and join forces against the "only war that matters"?

The North ist smarter than you. 

[Juligen]

I am always amazed when I see people still hoping Rickon to have any relevance in the final books. It was Sansa and Arya who saw it their father been beheaded. It was Sansa and Arya who were made prisoners. It was Sansa and Arya who were beaten, tortured, abused, forced to see the dark side of war, it was Sansa who was sold into marriage like a animal; it was Arya who had to watch with ehr own eyes the Red Wedding.

 

Did you notice that all the main villains of this story; Joffrey, Ramsey Bolton; Littlefinger, Walder Frey were all murdered by the girls or with their help??? Whay else has the show to do for the audience to understand that it will be Sansa and Arya who will save House Stark? 

 

Bran storyline is completely involved with the NK and the army of the dead. Politics will still matter in season 8 and the Stark girls, after everything they went through  aint gonna bend the knee to Daenerys I am actually not the heir of any shit in Westeros Targaryen. 

 

Its the Stark girls who are the heroines of this story and I would be surprised if they are the one who finally take down Daenerys.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

On 4/1/2019 at 2:27 PM, Kajjo said:

Well, Jon was made king by acclamation, not because of his birth rights to begin with. 

So he is king as long as the people accept him to be king. 

By inheritance there is no "King in the North" anyway. The title, too, was created by acclamation.

Furthermore, even his claim to the Iron Throne is just by birth right as heir of Targaryen. However, the Targaryens acquired this right by war and they lost it by war to Robert Baratheon. All this babble about "true heir" of Daenerys is just an illusion of the past. You want a throne, you have to conquer it. If you conquer it, it doesn't matter whether you have the birth right. If you don't conquer it, it doesn't matter anyway.

Robb wasn't voted King in the North. He was Torrhen's heir and so King when the North broke away from the seven Kingdoms.  Torrhen knelt, Robb rose. 

Electing Jon by passing over his trueborn sister is unprecedented. The Ironborn vote leaders, the North do not. This seems to have happened in the show because there is no will from Robb and its nonsense.

Jon was a King without a castle. Given power by his Lords and now they've opened the door to those Lords just choosing another monarch at any point. Succession stability has been undermined. The writers do not care about this however. The way I see it, they will ignore all this, bring out Jon's true heritage and they'll think that has fixed it. 

[Kajjo]

23 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Electing Jon by passing over his trueborn sister is unprecedented

Is there any precedence for a Queen in the North in history? I don't think so. The North always had a male Stark as leader in Winterfell.

24 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The Ironborn vote leaders, the North do not. This seems to have happened in the show because

This happened in the show because there are no living male Starks besides Jon Snow and Bran Stark. Bran waived his offered right because he is now the three-eyed raven and Jon Snow is the last male with Stark blood in his veins -- no matter whether with Eddard Stark as his thought-to-be father as well as with Lyanna Stark as his real mother. Jon Snow is a Stark after all. He is the last male with Stark blood.

I believe this to be highly consistent and it can work out this way in the books, too. No reason to be so negative about Jon Snow becoming the Kind in the North. There is no other Stark.

28 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Jon was a King without a castle.

A castle doesn't make you king. People accepting you as king makes you king. And his blood line of course. But yes, he agreed on Sansa Stark being Lady of Winterfell for the time being, because there are more urgents matters to deal with.

 

29 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

bring out Jon's true heritage

He's a Stark and a Targaryen. Do you argue with that?

[Rose of Red Lake]

Lyanna specifically said Ned Stark when she elected him. Rhaegar instead of Ned as the father is a huge liability. "A Targaryen cannot be trusted." And now Jon consorts with one!

Jon would never usurp his siblings so this is consistent with his book character. The king without a castle makes sense. Its also hilarious because he gave Dany something by giving her nothing. 

I think Jon is kept at arm's length from WF for plot reasons.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Is there any precedence for a Queen in the North in history? I don't think so. The North always had a male Stark as leader in Winterfell.

This happened in the show because there are no living male Starks besides Jon Snow and Bran Stark. Bran waived his offered right because he is now the three-eyed raven and Jon Snow is the last male with Stark blood in his veins -- no matter whether with Eddard Stark as his thought-to-be father as well as with Lyanna Stark as his real mother. Jon Snow is a Stark after all. He is the last male with Stark blood.

I believe this to be highly consistent and it can work out this way in the books, too. No reason to be so negative about Jon Snow becoming the Kind in the North. There is no other Stark.

A castle doesn't make you king. People accepting you as king makes you king. And his blood line of course. But yes, he agreed on Sansa Stark being Lady of Winterfell for the time being, because there are more urgents matters to deal with.

 

He's a Stark and a Targaryen. Do you argue with that?

As of yet no Queen in the North but the show Lords don't seem opposed to it. Your position is that Jon was chosen for male preference but his biggest supporter is Lyanna Mormont. That is not it. Why they chose Jon instead of Sansa is never stated. Especially when Sansa brought the Vale and has a blood link to the Riverlands. None of which Jon has.

Sansa is Lady of Winterfell, not for the time being. Until she dies. Its her castle. And a king without a castle is a big deal, it means you have no lands upon which to draw direct taxation, it means you have no army directly under your control, you also don't have a fortress to rule from.

I don't argue he has Stark and Targaryen blood. I'm arguing that the writers will sidestep this nonsensical inheritance by revealing it when its clear he would otherwise have no influence.

[Kajjo]

45 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Your position is that Jon was chosen for male preference but his biggest supporter is Lyanna Mormont.

Well, my focus is not on male primogeniture but yes, he is the only male Stark there. But he is the only Stark able to fight a war, to lead men. 

Sansa has mellowed somehow, but she is no king material so far. Lady Lyanna Mormont told her quite bluntly  what she thinks about her and her petty past (when joining the battle against Ramsay). 

51 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Why they chose Jon instead of Sansa is never stated.

They want a King of the North whose name is Stark. That simple. He is the only one available. And he has shown balls, he won the battle of the bastards, he recaptured Winterfell. Yes, he had help by the Knight of the Vale, but Jon Snow was the leader and the winner.

52 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

And a king without a castle is a big deal, it means you have no lands upon which to draw direct taxation, it means you have no army directly under your control, you also don't have a fortress to rule from.

This is about "the only war that matters", not about everyday considerations of taxes. Gosh. Get a grip of priorities here. And surely he could rule from Winterfell, if he wished so. Sansa would not prevent him from doing so. She accepted him as king.

[Mystical]

8 hours ago, Kajjo said:

This is just nonsense. The great war is directly ahead. Daenerys comes with two dragons. 

There is no sense in all to oppose Daenerys by proclaiming a new King in the North just before her arrival. Do you really think that would promote the cause and join forces against the "only war that matters"?

The North ist smarter than you.

How is it nonsense? If Jon had inherited the King title, lets say via a will from Robb like in the books, the the North's hands would be tied. But that's not how Jon came to be KitN. He was voted into office which is very different from Robb for example (as the heir if the last King who was a Stark). So Jon only got his position via a vote, as nonsensical as a 10 year old shaming everybody into it might be. Jon decided to give said position up. That's fie for him to do, no doubt. But it also means that the North is well within it's rights to elect a new leader.

The North isn't smarter than me. I'm just not biased like some Dany/Jon stans who can't see the forest for the trees.

3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Is there any precedence for a Queen in the North in history? I don't think so. The North always had a male Stark as leader in Winterfell.

What the hell does it matter when there are female rulers ALL OVER the show even though they have no right to it? Cersei, Ellaria, Dany and Oleanna. The only reason Sansa is an exception, is that Jon Snowflake is tied up in her storyline and D&D are all about Jonny. It has nothing to do with how the North normally runs or history or anything like that. If Jon wasn't in that storyline, Sansa would have been Queen. Doesn't take a genius to realize that.

 

 

[Mystical]

5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

They want a King of the North whose name is Stark.

But his name is SNOW, not STARK. Jesus. You do know Jon's full name, don't you? Rickon was the rightful STARK and no one, including the little girl whose fave saying is the above quoted, gave a shit about him. As soon as Bran showed up the Northern Lords should have been all over him becoming King because his name is STARK. And nothing again.

[Kajjo]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So Jon only got his position via a vote, as nonsensical as a 10 year old shaming everybody into it might be.

There was no vote. He was made King by acclamation.

5 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Jon decided to give said position up.

Sort of, yes. Jon never really wanted to be king, he wants to deal with the biggest threat to mankind. "The great war is all that matters now".

7 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The North isn't smarter than me. I'm just not biased

You are full of hate and extremely negative towards the storyline. I often wonder why you watch the show if you despise it so much. This is the greatest TV show ever and you continuously point out the worst. I would advise you to enjoy it or let it go.

And yes, the North understands about "the great war is all that matters" and you talk about taxes and castles. My goodness. You don't see the forest for all the trees. You moan about every little tree not perfectly pictured in the show instead of seeing the broader picture of a great, great TV show and the depth of the storyline and its multiple phantastic threads.

12 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The only reason Sansa is an exception

The main reason is that Sansa is no leadership material so far. Remember what Lyanna Mormont told her. No one believes in Sansa winning a battle. 

11 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Rickon was the rightful STARK and no one, including the little girl whose fave saying is the above quoted, gave s hit about him.

Rickon is dead. If here had gron up to a at least a boy with balls comparable to Lyanna Mormont, Jon surely would not opposed him to become Lord of Winterfell or maybe even King in the North. But you have to have the balls to be Kings. Lyanna Mormont has, Sansa doesn't. At least so far.

12 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But his name is SNOW, not STARK.

Obviously they accept a bastard son with the right blood. I like this notion that despite all the talk about bastards, when a great war threatens to eliminate mankind, the lords of the North pick him. He is the best option they have. 

[Zorral]

On 3/30/2019 at 2:05 PM, Mystical said:

Jon is a bastard, no one in their right mind gives a bastard a title unless under dire circumstances like no living heirs.

European history is littered with titled bastards.  For just one very damned famous instance, Duke William the Bastard, a/k/a William the Conqueror.  The Plantagenets had dozens and dozens and dozens of titled bastards.  Henry I alone had 21 - 25 bastards.

[Error-504]

On 4/2/2019 at 12:58 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

So what I've learned on this thread: Calling Sansa Lady of Winterfell provokes REACTIONS. Any time I've mentioned the power that Sansa has with that position, I'm corrected for some strange reason.

It sounds like people are struggling to handle this advancement in Sansa's storyline and would rather she not be anywhere near Winterfell at all. This is strange because there are plenty of book hints that she will be Lady of Winterfell and even Queen of Westeros so it's really not that big of a deal. It just sounds like people had really low expectations for her and overestimated Robb's will. 

Regent: ruling through another wild/unruly child king.  

Lady of the Vale: ruling through a wild/unruly child king. 

That's the best you can come up with, as a "Sansa fan"?? Those are awful endgames and offer no narrative closure or catharsis. It sounds like underestimation and also rather mean. She can only rule through kid? A co-equal partnership like Jaehaerys/Alysanne is impossible for her?

Oh, excuse me - I'm reaching to far for this character - I must now discuss the finer details of how her illegal and unconsummated marriage to Tyrion has soiled her forever.

Her arc is about learning how to play her most valuable piece on the board, the key to the North. If she plays it right, she can get everything she wants - family, romantic love, safety, a good political match, Northern rights - with that play. It's great character growth if she can achieve that. She'd do what Robb couldn't.

As for Sandor. The author has mentioned in interviews that he never intended the Hound to be a dashing romantic figure and was surprised by the "SanSan kind of thing." It's not happening. Take a hint from the show. Or just re-read those scenes again and observe how its not romantic. 

I've never had a problem with her being the Lady of WF, it's a role Jon clearly can't take, now can he? She is not however the KotN, nor will she ever marry Jon. 

[Error-504]

6 hours ago, Juligen said:

I am always amazed when I see people still hoping Rickon to have any relevance in the final books. It was Sansa and Arya who saw it their father been beheaded. It was Sansa and Arya who were made prisoners. It was Sansa and Arya who were beaten, tortured, abused, forced to see the dark side of war, it was Sansa who was sold into marriage like a animal; it was Arya who had to watch with ehr own eyes the Red Wedding.

 

Did you notice that all the main villains of this story; Joffrey, Ramsey Bolton; Littlefinger, Walder Frey were all murdered by the girls or with their help??? Whay else has the show to do for the audience to understand that it will be Sansa and Arya who will save House Stark? 

 

Bran storyline is completely involved with the NK and the army of the dead. Politics will still matter in season 8 and the Stark girls, after everything they went through  aint gonna bend the knee to Daenerys I am actually not the heir of any shit in Westeros Targaryen. 

 

Its the Stark girls who are the heroines of this story and I would be surprised if they are the one who finally take down Daenerys.

What?

Sansa had no part in Joffrey's killing, not knowingly. Sansa's marriage to Ramsey is a show only thing, and she wasn't sold, she was willing. Arya didn't witness the Red Wedding, only the aftermath.