Why “Wylla?” Meet Lyanna’s Dornish Doppelganger

[Syl of Syl]

37 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

Not sure of the timing of when Ashara could have become pregnant from Ned and Ned arriving at Starfall, and him telling her he is marrying Catelyn.

Yeh, timing is the big problem in that. We know Eddard Stark's whereabouts during the possible window of conception. He and Catelyn conceived Robb during his time in Riverrun between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident. Since Jon and Robb are basically the same age, Jon must have been conceived during this same window of opportunity. If Ashara Dayne also gives birth around this time she would have had to get pregnant around this time window as well. Right before Eddard is busy escaping the Vale, rallying his banners in the North and marching South, and right after he is busy in King's Landing. For him to impregnate Ashara Dayne she would have had to be somewhere in the vicinity of the Riverlands during the height of the war, which doesn't seem plausible.

I think Eddard showing up with an infant who he would have said is his bastard along with the news that he is now married to Catelyn Tully, on top of the news that he killed her brother seems like plenty enough to cast Ashara into depression if we believe that she and Eddard were in love.

 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, NonoNono said:

GRRM often uses conflicting rumors to reveal a hidden truth to which they all contribute.

Ashara is said to have killed herself because of a still birth, a stolen child, grief for her dead brother.

Supposedly. No body was found.
I don't think she committed suicide at all, but faked it as cover for exile with her friend Elia's babe, smuggled out of KL by Varys (or replaced by Varys).

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If she was pregnant from Ned's child, Ned arrives with Jon and news that her brother is dead. She has a miscarriage due to grief and/or Ned telling her he's marrying Cate. Now I could be wrong, but I do think Ashara, if pregnant from Ned, could have thought Ned would marry her, but his brother's death changed everything. She is going to give birth to a bastard, Ned won't marry her, her brother is dead, she miscarries. During all this time a local wetnurse named Wylla is taking care of Jon. Ned leaves with Jon. Ashara kills herself. Some think Ned stole Ashara's child and she killed herself, but it's actually a little bit of all the rumors.

Not sure of the timing of when Ashara could have become pregnant from Ned and Ned arriving at Starfall, and him telling her he is marrying Catelyn.

I think it likely that her pregnancy was much earlier - conceived at Harrenhal.

I like the idea that Allyria Dayne might be her not-stillborn-after-all daughter - claimed by her mother to avoid the stigma of bastardry. Allyria appears to be the right age for that.

14 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

Yeh, timing is the big problem in that. We know Eddard Stark's whereabouts during the possible window of conception. He and Catelyn conceived Robb during his time in Riverrun between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident. Since Jon and Robb are basically the same age, Jon must have been conceived during this same window of opportunity. If Ashara Dayne also gives birth around this time she would have had to get pregnant around this time window as well. Right before Eddard is busy escaping the Vale, rallying his banners in the North and marching South,

Indeed.

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and right after he is busy in King's Landing.

No, there's about 6 months or more between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident where we have no information and nothing important seems to happen. There is often discussion about 'why' this apparent lull. 

I think those early battles were fought with the smaller, better quality, early levies, not the full musters. Hence things like Robert's 3 battles in one day, and 3 way alliance at Stoney Sept but still not being a huge battle in the 30000-40000 men each range.
So I think the 6 month lull is because a) the full levies were still training and making their way to the campaign area, b) there were still many 'local' royalists that needed to be converted or destroyed before the Rebels had safe enough logistics to move larger bodies of men and c) KL and the Red Keep represented a formidable obstacle that the Rebels didn't really have enough men to conquer while the Royalists had armies in the field. Killing Rhaegar and scattering his army  changed all that, and even more so, Tywin's treachery.

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For him to impregnate Ashara Dayne she would have had to be somewhere in the vicinity of the Riverlands during the height of the war, which doesn't seem plausible.

Well, its not impossible. There's not much to indicate it happened though.

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I think Eddard showing up with an infant who he would have said is his bastard along with the news that he is now married to Catelyn Tully, on top of the news that he killed her brother seems like plenty enough to cast Ashara into depression if we believe that she and Eddard were in love.

There isn't anything solid to indicate that Ashara was ever into Ned anyway. Just gossip by people (including Dayne kids) who never met them and are going by other older gossip,
But then, I don;t think she committed suicide at all.

But if she was, then maybe, except the 'news' he'd married Catelyn was definitely old by then, 9 months or so old.
OTOH, not only did she miss his hand in marriage, apparently she also missed being his bit on the side! So if he mattered to her (and she wasn't already in on the ToJ thing), yes, plenty of reason for depression.

[Syl of Syl]

5 hours ago, corbon said:

They can't hold out forever at Starfall, and there will be a major cost to Starfall if they hold there openly even a little.
Hiding out at an isolated outpost is the only possible solution. Unless they get found. They got found.

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I disagree. That's not the only possible solution. By holding out where they did, they were closer to the fighting, not farther away. If they're worried about the security of Starfall, why not head to Oldtown which is just as close and can be reached by ship? Gerold Hightower is sure to find a welcome there. House Hightower stayed loyal to Aerys throughout the rebellion. And the Hightower would be even farther from the action and more impervious to assault than Starfall. Oldtown itself would be a better hiding place as well. It's not a place where Rhaegar has been known to be and is a huge city.

[Syl of Syl]

18 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, there's about 6 months or more between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident where we have no information and nothing important seems to happen.

How do you know it was 6 months? Regardless, we know plenty about what Eddard was up to in between these two battles. We know that he married Catelyn and conceived Robb during this time, so I presume he and Jon Arryn left Stoney Sept for Riverrun, got married and then were furiously at work trying to conceive heirs until they left for the Trident.

[Amris]

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

[snip]

3. But I must admit my prejudice: I think Ashara survived and that her baby is Dany via Rhaegar, so my ability to go with you on this is hampered.

[snip]

This is something I would like to see too.

I have never managed to come up with a satisfying scenario for it though. Something that connects all the dots. I suspects it's wishful thinking on my part. But yeah - if it came true I'd love it.

[Sly Wren]

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Interesting. I suppose this is possible. But I still think some of the details are a bit off.

From the dream you mention:

Ned's companions seem to have their swords drawn first. So it doesn't seem to me like there was any attempt at a parlay, at least in the dream.

Yes--I got it wrong that Arthur drew first: he donned his helm first

The KG say: "The Kingsguard do not flee"

Then Arthur: "Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Then Gerold says they swore a vow.

Then the shadow wraiths have swords.

The KG make it clear they will not kneel or yield. And Arthur puts on his helm for the fight. The KG seem to "start" this.

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

And then at the end, he can hear Lyanna screaming as the fight begins, which is some indication that Lyanna was there in the tower.

Or that Ned associates the fight with her. He hears her in his crypt dream, too. 

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

I guess he could be remembering incorrectly or conflating two distinct memories, but I don't think the dream supports your theory that the KG trio used trickery to whittle the odds so they could take out Eddard. In addition to the dream, this doesn't fit with the characterization of those three men who were pretty universally respected for their honor.

Of course they were respected--though Ned only singles out Arthur. But they are also cornered and trying to fulfill a vow.

We see Jon, very honorable and a true believer in honor (despite his faults), cornered by Thorne to go out, pretend to parlay, and instead kill Mance as a Hail Mary effort to stop to attack on the Wall. 

The KG have a mission. They have little chance to fulfill it if Ned's gotten wind of where they are. They do what they can.

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

And logically, why would they even have a desire to kill Eddard? I see standing guard over Lyanna and protecting Rhaegar's unborn child from any who would come there, but anticipating a threat from Lyanna's own brother and then setting up a meeting to waylay him far from Starfall seems overly convoluted.

Unless Ned heard and contacted them. If Ned has found them, they are in trouble. Letting Ned come with his whole army to Starfall . . . .possibly getting Robert and his fleet in on the game . . . Starfall will fall. No good options. Hail Mary parlay.

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Why not stay at Starfall and have the backing of the entire castle garrison to protect Lyanna and the babe when Eddard arrives? They can certainly hold out against Eddard and his six inside Starfall and plan to take a ship once Lyanna and the babe are able to travel.

Unless the fleet comes and blocks them. Or unless Starfall says, "forget ti! You will not risk my people for this!"

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

I get that GRRM's plots may seem convoluted at times, but they usually adhere to an internal logic.

Yes--and precedents. And GRRM has shown us repeatedly how to hide a stolen/fugitive Stark Maid: in plain sight under disguises and aliases. Even in crowded castles. Not holed up in isolated towers.

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Characters tend to act in a way that is consistent with who they are. What would be the logic that Dayne and Hightower and Whent were following when they set up this parlay? Why would they see that as more likely to succeed in their goal of protecting Lyanna and Rhaegar's unborn child over the simpler more straightforward plan of staying holed up in Starfall?

Because they are sunk and have no good options--any more that the Watch have good options when it's clear Mance is winning--so they send out Jon as a Hail Mary.

17 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Also, while they travel to the Tower of Joy and wait there for Eddard, how can they be sure he or some other threat doesn't bypass them and arrive in Starfall while they are gone. Isn't it safer to stay close to the one they are charged with protecting?

We see this in Dunk (full of Dayne imagery)--he leaves the place he's protecting and goes to a neutral location to face a smaller force, since he cannot win against his opponent's full force.

They may be counting on Ned's willingness to believe they must yield--his force is vastly superior, after all. 

But GRRM has given us precedent on this. And shows repeatedly that you don't hide Stark Maids in isolated towers for more than a very short time. Gotta be a reason for that. . . . 

[Sly Wren]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not a lie, to them.

Right--it's Ned's lie for certain. Whether or not Starfall is lying has yet to be shown. But something is up. And Wylla is going along with it.

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There is no evidence that Ned "named Wylla (as Jon's mother) at Starfall".

If Ned merely rode in to Starfall with Wylla nursing Jon, and refused to discuss them, the natural assumption is that Wylla is Jon's mother, Ned's 'bit on the side'.
If thats the 'gossip', and its not directed to Wylla's face, she doesn't even necessarily get the opportunity to deny it - if she felt she had to. Heck, as long as she's not promulgating it it probably adds to her status in a way, so why even refute it.

But we see how Ned responds to gossip about Jon's birth at Winterfell--shuts it down right quick. And we see how he responds to Robert--NO details.

If Wylla was assumed to be Jon's mother and Ned knew (as he really seems to given that convo with Robert) and if Ned wants discussion of Jon's birth shut down, why not shut it down at Starfall?

And why on earth leave Wylla there? A living trace who knows the truth. Take her back to wherever she came from. Starfall can then gossip all they like--as the Sistermen do. It would just be gossip.

But Ned leaves the "mother" at Starfall with her story intact. Leaves a trace/witness. Given what we've seen of how Ned reacts to any talk of Jon's mother, that seems very bad.

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This is simply bad logic. 
Do the Sistermen need to lie? Does Cersei need to lie (about this)? Do the Winterfell staff/Catelyn need to lie? They all have stories, more or less.

The Sistermen and Cersei don't have a living, breathing person identified by the noble family as Jon's mother. The Sistermen don't even have a name. 

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Starfall has a story because its interesting and they know some facts. So they have a story that fits their facts.

And if Ned didn't repeat the name and if Martin didn't throw in Wylla Manderly and if this were real life and not a novel, I'd be right there with you.

But Ned did and Martin did and it's not. Something is up.

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But even then, its not so much that they have a "story", its that Edric Dayne "knows" something. Its not necessarily a promulgated story that is official at Starfall. For all we know it is just a random fact that he "knows" because he's heard it from somewhere and never doubted it.

Ned repeats it. Martin brings in Wylla's name again with Wylla Manderly when he absolutely did not have to. It's a novel, not real life, shaped by GRRM for a reason. Something's up.

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Its possible Edric has talked to Wylla directly about Jon. But I can very easily see him asking her if Jon was his milk brother, and her confirming that. Thats of interest to a small boy. Why he would ask her if she was Jon Snow's mother, makes no sense at all. What would a small boy care about who the mother is of some other small boy he's never met who's not related and a bastard to boot?

Something is off with Ned Dayne's name and thinking that it's cool that the Lord of Starfall is milk brothers with the bastard of Winterfell.

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Starfall does not need the story, any more than Cersei, the Sistermen or Winterfell staff need a story.

The Sistermen, Cersei, and Winterfell go on rumor. Starfall has a living, breathing cast member that Ned left behind. Something is up. 

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But you did nail it here, IMO. Ned arrived at Starfall with Wylla and Jon, and didn't name a mother. Wylla has not, as far as we know, put herself forward as Jon's mother. And so Edric has a gossip-story that he has never questioned, but he's not heard it from Wylla's lips (that she was Jon's mother).

There is no indication that Ned did claim Wylla as Jon's mother at Starfall.

He didn't quash it (as he does at Winterfell) or clam up (as with Cersei). He repeats the name.

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The only way I can see that we can maintain consistency between all the various stories and the attitude, actions, character and words of Ned Stark, is that when Ned and Robert met to reconcile after Lyanna's death, Robert the King had already had a report about Ned riding in to Starfall with Jon being nursed by Wylla. So Robert brought up the subject (Ned wouldn't) and Robert had already made the same assumption that Starfall did about Wylla being the mum, and just as we saw in the second conversation he made statements that Ned did not answer. He did ask the wetnurse's name, and Ned accurately gave him the name Wylla.

Or--Ned told him. Because it was a needed story. And then never, ever wanted to tell it again.

Not too unlike how he never, ever wants to tell of how he killed Arthur.

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So, just as in the conversation we saw, Ned has never actually claimed Wylla is Jon's mum. But he has lived the lie, even if he didn't tell it, by allowing Robert to believe it.

He says the name without any need--he could just clam up and refuse to talk. He's telling and living the lie. And not quashing it--as he does with Cat and Winterfell about Ashara.

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Who said he left her there? I believe its likely she traveled on to Winterfell with him (why would he change wetnurses?) and after Jon was weaned Ned returned her to Starfall. Winterfell would not be a welcoming place for a southron unpopular with Catelyn, would it?

She could have come to Winterfell, yes. But why on earth return her to Starfall to be a living witness? Sending her some place without any story, sending her "home"--would leave Starfall with only rumors like Cersei and the Sistermen.

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I think Starfall owes Ned enough for the return of Dawn that they'd hold a place for her in their household forever if he asked it.

Given Ned Dayne's name and behavior, and Ned Stark's reverence for Arthur above all . . . something else is up. We've seen Westerosi reaction to those who kill family members. Arthur is the literal chosen son. Something is up.

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I think the answer to this is that Ned could eliminate that trace only by killing Wylla, a faithful servant. And he couldn't do that and be Ned.

Or send her back to where she came from and have her live a different lie. One way or another, Wylla's being asked to live a lie.

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I don't believe in the parallels that you see in these having any more meaning than names being relatively common and repeated often. Wylla Manderley and Rhaegar Frey are in their own story for other reasons, nothing to do with Wylla-the-wetnurse and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Of course they have their own stories. But they are not necessary characters--unless a character named "Rhaegar" and only "Rhaegar" was necessary for the pies. 

GRRM could have named them anything else. He chose those names knowing full well what the fandom thought about Jon's origins and the meaning of those names. Something's up.

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No, Ned is not going along with the Starfall story. 

On Ashara? No. On Wylla? yes.

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There is no reason she has to be 'going along with it' (though its possible she has, certainly).

There is no indication in fact that its even been put in front of her!

Unless she's deaf and dumb, she's going along with it.

The story has been there too long.

ETA: And we see from the start that wet-nurses tell their children tales--Royce make that clear in the Game Prologue. Wylla's had years to refute the rumor. Ned Dayne believes it like gospel. 

Willa's going along with it, if not flat out telling it--perhaps even with the boldness of Wylla Manderly. 

[Syl of Syl]

12 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Starfall will fall. No good options.

What about going to Oldtown then? That's at least as good an option as leaving Lyanna alone in Starfall while the they try to trick Ned into meeting them at the tower of joy - and by the way, if it's a trick to get Ned somewhere isolated and kill him, why not bring a few more men (maybe an archer or two) along?

Also, isn't the whole point of Lyanna being at tower of joy the whole time that they wanted to keep her pregnancy secret? If she gave birth at Starfall, they run the risk of someone like Varys finding out eventually.

[Sly Wren]

13 hours ago, NonoNono said:

GRRM often uses conflicting rumors to reveal a hidden truth to which they all contribute.

Yup! It's one of the reasons I think Dany is Rhaegar and Ashara's--and that Lyanna was little more to Rhaegar than a useful hostage.

13 hours ago, NonoNono said:

. Now I could be wrong, but I do think Ashara, if pregnant from Ned, could have thought Ned would marry her, but his brother's death changed everything.

But. . .  .he'd already married Cat a while earlier. Quite a while. And the North aligning with the Riverlands against the Iron Throne was a big deal, sealed with a marriage.

Really seems like Ashara had to know this. Unless you are thinking Ashara thought Ned would set Cat aside? That seems like fanciful thinking on Ashara's part. . . 

[Sly Wren]

29 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

What about going to Oldtown then?

Can the person they are guarding be moved? Is putting said person on a ship safe? And why Oldtown? Are you thinking of a specific reason why they'd be safer there?

29 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

That's at least as good an option as leaving Lyanna alone in Starfall while the they try to trick Ned into meeting them at the tower of joy

Unless Starfall is refusing to help or doesn't have enough resources. And it may not be Lyanna who they are guarding: Arya is held by the brotherhood without banners, but never their primary mission. Lyanna really may not be their mission.

29 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

and by the way, if it's a trick to get Ned somewhere isolated and kill him, why not bring a few more men (maybe an archer or two) along?

A good point--unless Starfall is refusing to send men. Holding onto their fighters in case the plan goes badly.

And the KG may also be focusing on the "honor" bit--if they are going to do this, do it themselves.

29 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

Also, isn't the whole point of Lyanna being at tower of joy the whole time that they wanted to keep her pregnancy secret? If she gave birth at Starfall, they run the risk of someone like Varys finding out eventually.

Unless she's under an alias, as the OP theorizes.

Arya and Sansa are hidden under aliases and disguises in plain sight. It works. If Lyanna was disguised as someone else, even if pregnant, the majority of Starfall might not know who she is.

Sansa is wanted for regicide. A price is on her head. She's been seen a LOT at court and was front and center during Joffrey's death. She's very recognizable.

And yet Baelish keeps her effectively hidden in plain sight under hair dye and an alias. In the Eyrie and then at the Gates. 

That's how you hide a Stark maid in Martinlandia. Really seems like GRRM is showing us how to hide Lyanna.

[Syl of Syl]

40 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

A good point--unless Starfall is refusing to send men. Holding onto their fighters in case the plan goes badly.

And the KG may also be focusing on the "honor" bit--if they are going to do this, do it themselves.

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Surely they can spare one or two. And surely Arthur Dayne has an old friend or two in the area that would be willing to join them. If they were asking for help, they would have had it. And if they're focusing on the honor bit as you say, doesn't that contradict the whole plan. Lying to Eddard to trap him and kill him doesn't seem honorable to me.

35 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Can the person they are guarding be moved? Is putting said person on a ship safe? And why Oldtown? Are you thinking of a specific reason why they'd be safer there?

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The reason for Starfall as a loyal location in the first place is because of Arthur Dayne has family there - which is also why I assume he could have found at least one or two willing volunteers to join their party if they wanted it, or found a ship to take them to Oldtown alternatively. Likewise, Gerold Hightower's brother or nephew would be the Lord of Hightower at this time. This along with the fact that Hightower remained loyal to Aerys to the very end of the rebellion makes it a place for safe refuge. That and the fact that it is a huge city. If we are going to hide in plain sight, what better way to achieve that end than in a huge city? And why can't we move this person? She is pregnant, not crippled.

[Ser Leftwich]

The reason they are not in Starfall or Oldtown is because, as Areo Hotah so aptly put, "Someone always tells."

We know someone told, because Ned found out. The more people know a thing, the more will tell a thing.

[corbon]

16 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

I disagree. That's not the only possible solution. By holding out where they did, they were closer to the fighting, not farther away. If they're worried about the security of Starfall, why not head to Oldtown which is just as close and can be reached by ship? Gerold Hightower is sure to find a welcome there. House Hightower stayed loyal to Aerys throughout the rebellion. And the Hightower would be even farther from the action and more impervious to assault than Starfall. Oldtown itself would be a better hiding place as well. It's not a place where Rhaegar has been known to be and is a huge city.

Starfall, Oldtown, it matters not. The war has already been lost and they indicate in their answers to Ned that they know it, though they remain defiant themselves.
But although they have not given up, they must understand that even (especially?) their own family strongholds cannot publicly support them now. Not against the combined might of the North, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, the Crownlands and the Westlands. The Hightowers will not risk seeing Oldtown destroyed...

15 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

How do you know it was 6 months? Regardless, we know plenty about what Eddard was up to in between these two battles. We know that he married Catelyn and conceived Robb during this time, so I presume he and Jon Arryn left Stoney Sept for Riverrun, got married and then were furiously at work trying to conceive heirs until they left for the Trident.

Not exactly 6 months, but something like 4-8ish (its actually more according to Cat, but there are limits on how fast some things could have happened early on and wit the vagaries of casual language...)

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Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

So the war lasted about a year. Cat married Ned early enough that Rob was born while Ned was still away in the south - she says 'still warred', but there is too much to happen (long distances traveled by individuals and armies) in the first few months to fit it all within 3 months, so its likely that Rob was born technically after the war ended (the Sack) and during the time Ned rode south to stop the siege of Storms End, ride to ToJ and then Starfall etc). Either way, this puts Cat and Ned's marriage at around the 3-4 month mark into the war. Then they are together just two weeks before Ned rides off again. 
At this stage we don't know what Ned is doing - as I indicated presumably taking holdout castles locally, sorting out the fuller levies, securing logistics, trying to treat with other rulers like Tywin and the Greyjoys, etc etc, for about 6 months or more (maybe 7-8), before Rhaegar makes a move toward the Trident and the Rebels meet him there. 

Basically, lots happens in the first 3 months, then a long break that we don;t know much of, but Ned is not with Cat any more, then a lot happens again in a short time starting with the Trident.

We can 'adjust' the timings we are given a little bit  to allow for flexible language and imperfect memories - and it seems we need to a little to physically fit things in to the time-frames (GRRM has always warned against trying to calculate out exact times and distances etc, because he's consciously sloppy in this area) but even doing that still gives us a lull of around 6 months during which Ned and Cat are apart and we don;t know exactly what he is doing or where.

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Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun

So Ned and Cat were apart a year or so - therefore together again about 3-4 months after the war ended - which fits with Ned doing his things in the South and getting back to Winterfell with Jon before Cat got there with Robb. And Cat learned about Jon within the first year of her marriage, which can't have happened until after Ned turned up at Starfall.

[dialt]

20 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Yeh, timing is the big problem in that. We know Eddard Stark's whereabouts during the possible window of conception. He and Catelyn conceived Robb during his time in Riverrun between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident. Since Jon and Robb are basically the same age, Jon must have been conceived during this same window of opportunity. If Ashara Dayne also gives birth around this time she would have had to get pregnant around this time window as well. Right before Eddard is busy escaping the Vale, rallying his banners in the North and marching South, and right after he is busy in King's Landing. For him to impregnate Ashara Dayne she would have had to be somewhere in the vicinity of the Riverlands during the height of the war, which doesn't seem plausible.

In addition, it looks like she was "disonored" at Harrenal...  way too long before.

Jon, Robb and Mera Reed are all a bit too younger - Dany even more - than an Ashara's child conceived there and then.

If that's the case. But any other case (the case of an Ashara’s child conceived  later on) is way too much complicated and with no textual evindences. So, possible on cards, but entirely speculative.

The only child of approximately the same age as Ashara's one (if conceived at Harrenal)... is Aegon. By the time of the tourney Elia was in the early stage of her pregnancy, or her child was conceived shortly after.

And given the relationship between the 2 women, if Ashara's child was really switched with another one... Then I bet on Aegon. Prior or -most likely - after the sack.

But beside that, Wylla is surely an interesting case.

I believe that the woman that Ned took to WF was not Jon’s mother. If she was, Ned had no reasons to not leave the child with his mother.

That would have been the best choice for mother and child for hundred of reasons. He only needed to send some money to them.. so to speak.

And I don’t think that woman - later on living at Starfall - was  someone of importance. She wasn’t...hiding. 

But, is there any chance that Lyanna was at Starfall under another name? That’s something worth to be discussed. And yeah... that exchange between Rhaegar Frey and Wylla Manderly is intriguing... but there could be another parallel (and an inverse one) at play.

I don’t have a precise idea, but I’ll think about it.

 

 

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But we see how Ned responds to gossip about Jon's birth at Winterfell--shuts it down right quick. And we see how he responds to Robert--NO details.

Indeed, thats one of my points.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If Wylla was assumed to be Jon's mother and Ned knew (as he really seems to given that convo with Robert) and if Ned wants discussion of Jon's birth shut down, why not shut it down at Starfall?

First its an assumption that Ned knows what Starfall says. Its likely that such rumours were not put to his face during his visit, giving no opportunity for him to shut them down.

Second, even if they were how the heck could he shut them down even if he wanted to? He holds no power or authority over these people. He's not around to hear it repeated after he leaves. Even if it was thrown in his face and he tried to shut it down while he was there, that would only make it stronger once he leaves. He can shut it down in Winterfell because he's the Lord with total and unquestioned authority over every person there, so his will is impose-able - there are dire potential consequences for any who are caught talking about it after he's tried to shut it down. He can;t do the same in Starfall even if he's there, and he's not there.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And why on earth leave Wylla there? A living trace who knows the truth. Take her back to wherever she came from. Starfall can then gossip all they like--as the Sistermen do. It would just be gossip.

Answered already.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But Ned leaves the "mother" at Starfall with her story intact. Leaves a trace/witness. Given what we've seen of how Ned reacts to any talk of Jon's mother, that seems very bad.

Answered already.
Pointing out also, that this is presuming, again, she has a "story". If she has no story, just silence on ToJ (is she knows that much), then this is much less of a problem for Ned.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The Sistermen and Cersei don't have a living, breathing person identified by the noble family as Jon's mother. The Sistermen don't even have a name. 

So? having a supposed witness doesn't create a need to lie. Period. 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Something is off with Ned Dayne's name and thinking that it's cool that the Lord of Starfall is milk brothers with the bastard of Winterfell.

Why is it off? His name is Edric, not Eddard. And even then, whats not to be expected? Ned Stark has probably done more for their House than any non-Dayne man in history, considering he returned Dawn to them when he had no need to. Without that sword their House is nothing. Their whole history, their Sigil, their honour, their uniqueness, everything they are is tied to that sword. There are no more 'Swords of the Morning' without that Sword.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

He didn't quash it (as he does at Winterfell) or clam up (as with Cersei). He repeats the name.

Yes, because Robert asked him a direct question so he had to answer. And since he'd told that name before, it made no difference to tell it again.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Or--Ned told him. Because it was a needed story. And then never, ever wanted to tell it again.

But its not a needed story on Ned's part. And we know Ned doesn't like telling stories. He won't even tell it again to someone he's already told it, according to you. Thats totally inconsistent. If he told Robert before, then he should be open about it with Robert if needed again, to avoid suspicion. Instead he nearly starts an argument with Robert because he refuses to talk about something hes already talked about. 

In summary, your argument here is that it was a needed story (without any demonstrable need and demonstrably not-willing) so he told it once. But once its been told, he refuses to tell it again, because... he does. 
Not good enough. 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Not too unlike how he never, ever wants to tell of how he killed Arthur.

He says the name without any need--he could just clam up and refuse to talk. He's telling and living the lie. And not quashing it--as he does with Cat and Winterfell about Ashara.

No, he has need to tell the name the second time for sure. Robert asked him a direct question that is rather innocent (what was the name of that rare wench, the one that made you lose your honour that one time?) and a refusal to answer at all would be suspicious and invite Robert to wonder why. All the more so since he'd already told Robert the name before.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

She could have come to Winterfell, yes. But why on earth return her to Starfall to be a living witness? Sending her some place without any story, sending her "home"--would leave Starfall with only rumors like Cersei and the Sistermen.

Already explained. Because she was likely miserable at Winterfell. Ned can kill her, imprison her, or send her back south where she fits in. He'd not be Ned if he killed her or imprisoned her when she's done nothing wrong but helped him. At least at Starfall he knows she's safe and with a house that is unlikely to offer active support to finding her secrets.

And Starfall will always have more than rumours like Cersei and the Sistermen. He actually rode in there with Jon and Wylla. Lots of people saw that. Cersei and the Sisters are going on gossip. Starfall gossips founded on facts they witnessed.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Given Ned Dayne's name and behavior, and Ned Stark's reverence for Arthur above all . . . something else is up. We've seen Westerosi reaction to those who kill family members. Arthur is the literal chosen son. Something is up.

We've seen varied Westerosi reactions to those who killed family members, and the more extreme ones are not well received by their peers (Karstark for example). Ned killed Arthur, yes, but it was honourably done, and Arthur was a Kingsguard Knight, whose duty and honour was to die if needed. Although you say Arthur is the literal chosen son, he's chosen as a representation of their honour, not their House. As a member of the Kingsguard he's not really even a House member any more in many ways, and expected to die in the service of his King, not live in the service of his House.
Far more importantly, Ned returned Dawn. Which demonstrates his honourable conduct to the Daynes infinitely more than any other action for or against them, including killing Arthur.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Or send her back to where she came from and have her live a different lie. One way or another, Wylla's being asked to live a lie.

Only by your suppositions. As I pointed out, Wylla is not being asked for anything - except perhaps to stay silent if she knows about the ToJ - which would be in her own best interest anyway. 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

On Ashara? No. On Wylla? yes.

All he's gone along with on Wylla is that Robert thinks she's the woman that Ned lost his honour over. He doesn't 'go along' with Robert on her being Jon;s mum, he lets that slide. Its not the same thing. Holding your peace is not the same as agreeing.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Unless she's deaf and dumb, she's going along with it.

Not true. You assume she's heard, even spread, the tale. I've pointed out, thats only an assumption. All we know is that Edric believes it. Not "Starfall in general", not "Wylla in particular". Just Edric, that we know of. Obviously he's been told it by someone, but we don't know for sure who (we do know his other information came from Allyria) or how many other people believe it. We have no reason to assume Wylla has heard the tale.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The story has been there too long.

ETA: And we see from the start that wet-nurses tell their children tales--Royce make that clear in the Game Prologue. Wylla's had years to refute the rumor. Ned Dayne believes it like gospel. 

Edric believing it only shows that he hasn't questioned it. He "knows" it because he's had no reason to disbelieve it and it fits with other facts he knows, like Jon Snow being his milk brother.
That doesn't make it a tale told him by his wetnurse. Not all wetnurses are the same, and most of the tales they tell are old tales, not personal ones. And this is a tale about his wetnurse, and not one that paints her in a positive light to him when you think about it. Although he's too young to understand it, his tale points to Wylla as a major cause in his Aunts misery and suicide. Ashara's 'great love' not only had to marry another for politics, which is more or less par for the course for nobles, but also was fucking another woman on the side. I'm sure thats not a story Wylla is telling the young Daynes...

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Willa's going along with it, if not flat out telling it--perhaps even with the boldness of Wylla Manderly. 

There is no evidence of this.

Your entire argument seems to me to be circular (not an accusation, just trying to understand what I am missing). Wylla is telling the story because Edric "knows" it. Edric "knows" it because Wylla is telling it. Am I misunderstanding something?
Is it just the Manderley/Frey angle? I don't agree in any way with your ideas on that, so its utterly unconvincing to me to use it in arguments.

I'm pointing out that we get an even better fitting narrative, one that doesn't have Ned Stark being irrational and inconsistent with Robert and on Jon's origins in general, if Wylla is not telling the story at all. And that there is nothing that actually indicates she is telling any story. Nothing that attributes her as a source. If anything, given that Robert believes she is the mother as well as Edric, that indicates the source is not her. She's definitely not told Robert, hes' never met her. If the source of Robert's Wylla rumour is someone else, then reasonably the source of Edric's Wylla rumour can be the same someone else. My argument is that the 'source' is an event, not a person. The event being Ned riding in to Starfall with Dawn, and Wylla nursing Jon.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Wylla can't be spreading the rumour, telling the story.
I'm pointing out two (3) things.
1. The narrative is more consistent and better served if Wylla is not telling the story.
2. Her not telling the story gets us the exact same results with Edric and with Robert. And with Ned, except now his behaviour is more consistent.
(3). Nothing in the text actually indicates Wylla, specifically, is telling anything. 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

But in the case the mother is Ashara Dayne and not Lyanna Stark.

[LynnS]

Yes, I've thought Wylla was a personna that Lyanna adopted for some time.  Wylla is also a common name.  I imagine many girls were named after Wylla of Wyl, that warrior maid.  So it's also not out of the question that Eddard Dayne had a wet nurse also named Wylla.  

[Syl of Syl]

8 hours ago, corbon said:

So the war lasted about a year. Cat married Ned early enough that Rob was born while Ned was still away in the south - she says 'still warred', but there is too much to happen (long distances traveled by individuals and armies) in the first few months to fit it all within 3 months, so its likely that Rob was born technically after the war ended (the Sack) and during the time Ned rode south to stop the siege of Storms End, ride to ToJ and then Starfall etc). Either way, this puts Cat and Ned's marriage at around the 3-4 month mark into the war. Then they are together just two weeks before Ned rides off again. 
At this stage we don't know what Ned is doing - as I indicated presumably taking holdout castles locally, sorting out the fuller levies, securing logistics, trying to treat with other rulers like Tywin and the Greyjoys, etc etc, for about 6 months or more (maybe 7-8), before Rhaegar makes a move toward the Trident and the Rebels meet him there.

I still don't see why there has to be a gap of 6 months between the Ned/Cat Jon/Lysa double wedding and the Battle of the Trident. I assume they left Riverrun to meet Rhaegar at the ruby ford because they had intel that he had returned to King's Landing and was marching for Riverrun. Say it takes about a month and a half for the White Bull to ride to Tower of Joy and Rhaegar to ride back to King's Landing if both those guys are booking it. Cat says Ned lingered scarcely a fortnight - scarcely indicates it was more than a fortnight and after fifteen years her memory could be fuzzy, especially since she emphasizes in her head the shortness of the time spent. So add in a few days of wedding planning once they return to Riverrun and they could easily have spent close to a month at Riverrun. With a few days to gather themselves after the Battle of the Bells and the time it takes to travel from Stoney Sept to Riverrun, that could quite conceivably place the time of departure from Riverrun around the time of Rhaegar's departure from King's Landing. And the ruby ford is about halfway between Riverrun and King's Landing. I don't see why there needs to be a lull of 6 months. They are marching to meet Rhaegar's forces in the field when they leave Riverrun. That seems the most logical thing to me. Otherwise, why leave Riverrun so quickly?

[Ygrain]

An interesting theory, though I still believe that your approach of looking for parallel situations and then applying them 100% is inherently flawed.

However, the doppelganger does NOT work:

On 4/1/2019 at 12:17 AM, Sly Wren said:

8. Wouldn’t the locals know? Not if we go by precedent.

• Jeyne returns to a place that somewhat knows both her and the “lost” girl she impersonates—and it works.

No. The one person left in Winterfell who knew both Arya and Jeyne is Theon and only Theon, who is broken into submission. That's the only reason why the plan works - because there is no-one bold enough to uncover the lie that gives the Boltons the rule over the North. 

 

On 4/1/2019 at 12:17 AM, Sly Wren said:

• Plus, when Arya confronts Harwin, he doesn’t recognize her, though he’s known and seen her almost every day since she was born.

And he hadn't seen her for a couple of months, during which Arya had her hair cut close to the head, starved, wore rags and lacked hygiene, plus he meets her in a situation where he would never have expected her. 

 

On 4/1/2019 at 12:17 AM, Sly Wren said:

• Like Jeyne, “Wylla” could claim the previous “Wylla’s” (Lyanna) story as her own.
• Some locals might suspect—Myranda suspects “Alayne.” But Sansa has a price on her head—“Wylla” doesn’t. And Starfall seems even more isolated than the Eyrie.

Er... Lyanna would have lived at Starfall for months. Unless the doppleganger looked totally like her, there is no way people who had seen her daily would be taken in.

Plus, where would they get Lyanna's double in Dorne? A girl with the right colouring, the Stark long face, AND the knowledge of what Lyanna had done and talked about the last couple of months? 

On 4/1/2019 at 12:17 AM, Sly Wren said:

• As for Rosamund, if Doran scars her face like Myrcella’s is supposed to be, perhaps no one will look too close. Could still work.

You mean, no-one like Cersei? Not a single moment.

Besides, Myrcella got the wound at the side of her face, that doesn't change the appearance so drastically. Take Sandor - even with his terrible burns, the unburnt part of his face still looks like Sandor.

Rosamund poising as Myrcella can only work until she reaches KL. If the charade continues even after that, it would be solely for political reasons, just like the fArya situation, e.g.because it would be inconvenient to start an open conflict with Dorne then and there.

 

Unless I've skipped it somewhere in the thread, you have missed an explanation of Wylla as Jon's mother, which ties in with Ran's theory that Jon was moved to Starfall: that Wylla came to Starfall with Jon as her baby, and Ned turned up to return the sword and pick up his "son". In this situation, the Daynes wouldn't deny him. It would also be an explanation why Ned considered it necessary to return Dawn in person, instead of just arranging for it to be sent to Starfall.

 

As for Wylla and Rhaegar namesakes: I think this is for the same reason why we have the young and defiant Lyanna Mormont. At this point of the story, we don't have a PoV that could relay, or at least hint at, what happened in the South, so we get proxies to remind the reader of the relevant names and a potential connection without being too blunt about it - the real Wylla and the real Rhaegar are part of the same story but the connection between the two, Lyanna (and Jon) is not mentioned in the scene which puts the two proxies together. (BTW, "Rhaegar" isn't there to marry Wylla/Lyanna but her sister, and the real Lyanna had no sister, so the parallel is not a 100%, anyway, and if it's not a100% in one aspect, it is not obliged to be a 100% in other aspects, either.)

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Not directly related to the OP, but some food for thought on the subject of Ned, Ashara, Jon, and Wylla.

 

The Case of the Fisherman's Daughter:

Davos and Godric Borrell:

Quote

"Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty."

One source (The Order of the Green Hand) claims that the author's annotations for this passage from the ibook edition say:

"This particular account reveals Borrell's ignorance.  Jon Snow was born some time around or shortly after the sack of King's Landing.  Catelyn believes he was conceived only after Ned had married her--while Lord Borrell's account would place his birth far earlier."

I don't have the ibook, and I could not cross check to verify this passage.  Does anybody here have that?

 

More of Davos and Borrell's conversation:

Quote

The lords of the Three Sisters had a black repute, and none more so than Godric Borrell,  . . . Keeper of the Night Lamp"

"I have no love for northmen,"  . . .

"The sea's a treacherous cruel thing."

"Not as treacherous as men, thought Davos. Lord Godric's forebears had been pirate kings until the Starks came down on them with fire and sword. These days the Sistermen left open piracy to Salladhor Saan and his ilk and confined themselves to wrecking. The beacons that burned along the shores of the Three Sisters were supposed to warn of shoals and reefs and rocks and lead the way to safety, but on stormy nights and foggy ones, some Sistermen would use false lights to draw unwary captains to their doom."

"The storms did you a kindness, blowing you to my door," Lord Godric said. "You'd have found a cold welcome in White Harbor.  You come too late, ser. Lord Wyman means to bend his knee, and not to Stannis." He took a swallow of his beer. "The Manderlys are no northmen, not down deep."

"[Stannis] went so far as to threaten to hang me if it should happen that some ship went aground because the Night Lamp had gone black."

From this conversation we learn that the fish people are treacherous, Borrell has a terrible reputation, and they have a grudge against the Starks, and they use false lights to lure unwary captains to their doom, Borrell is in charge of the Night Lamp and brought up using it to sink ships.  Fish guy Borrell is totally wrong about the Manderly's loyalty to the Starks.  Later Davos thinks "Sisterton had undermined those hopes.  If Lord Borrell told it true," what if he did not tell the Tale of the Fisherman's Daughter true, and this was a false light?

 The word "borrel" can mean "ignorant, or unlearned"

(Later, Wyman sends Davos to Skagos to find Rickon, the last male Stark heir, the World Book mentions that Skagos also uses "false lights" to lure ships to their doom--Rickon really is a shaggydog story?)

 

I think we need to be very suspicious of the information and the timeline provided by Borrell. 

 

Davos moves on to WhiteHarbor:

Davos is a smuggler who sneaks into WhiteHarbor on the Merry Midwife, coincidentally the boat is named after a happy person who delivers a baby.

Quote

The Merry Midwife stole into WhiteHarbor on the evening tide, her patched sail rippling with every gust of wind.

She was an old cog, and even in her youth no one had ever called her pretty. Her figurehead showed a laughing woman holding an infant by one foot, but the woman's cheeks and the babe's bottom were both pocked by wormholes. Uncounted layers of drab brown paint covered her hull; her sails were grey and tattered. She was not a ship to draw a second glance, unless it was to wonder how she stayed afloat. The Merry Midwife was known in WhiteHarbor too. For years she had plied a humble trade between there and Sisterton.

Merry/Laughing woman (recall "Ashara's laughing eyes") holding an infant.  The boat is very old, won't draw attention, many layers of paint--language suggesting going incognito.  This is possibly the same boat Ned used.

 

The captain of the Merry Midwife is Casso Mogat, mogate means "Varnish, glazing which covers anything." and  Mogat backwards is "tagom", an indigo dye.  casso means "fruitless, deprived, erased, fired" or "abdomen" or "I begin to fall" 

A name that means to cover something up, the color purple, who was fired from a position, deprived of something, related to abdomens, is fruitless, and begins to fall?  Ashara was allegedly got her heart broken by Ned breaking up with her, lost a baby, and jumped off a tower. 

 

The longest words you can form with "casso mogat" is "scotoma" which is a synonym for "blindspot." and "scatoma" which is impacted feces mistaken for a tumor.   Blindspots and feces mistaken for something important?  That's weird.

 

Davos remembers the last time he came to WhiteHarbor with his old captain the Blind Bastard.

He sees Storm Dancer, the same ship Cat took to King's Landing.

"They came here for refuge, to a city untouched by the fighting,"

"a young girl was selling cups of fresh milk from her nanny goat."

 

Bastards, WhiteHarbor is a safe refuge, young girls and nanny goats (milk maid wet nurse) . . .

 

Quote

Marble mermaids lit the way as Davos climbed, bowls of burning whale oil cradled in their arms.

Lady Ashara "threw herself into the sea"--symbolic mermaid?  She had fair skin, and a baby cradled in her arms.

 

The Wolf's Den is comfy, and may have been a lordling's bedchamber:

Quote

Davos rose and paced his cell. As cells went, it was large and queerly comfortable. He suspected it might once have been some lordling's bedchamber. It was thrice the size of his captain's cabin on Black Bessa, and even larger than the cabin Salladhor Saan enjoyed on his Valyrian. Though its only window had been bricked in years before, one wall still boasted a hearth big enough to hold a kettle, and there was an actual privy built into a corner nook. The floor was made of warped planks full of splinters, and his sleeping pallet smelled of mildew, but those discomforts were mild compared to what Davos had expected.

The food had come as a surprise as well. In place of gruel and stale bread and rotten meat, the usual dungeon fare, his keepers brought him fresh-caught fish, bread still warm from the oven, spiced mutton, turnips, carrots, even crabs. Garth was none too pleased by that. "The dead should not eat better than the living," he complained, more than once. Davos had furs to keep him warm by night, wood to feed his fire, clean clothing, a greasy tallow candle. When he asked for paper, quill, and ink, Therry brought them the next day. When he asked for a book, so he might keep at his reading, Therry turned up with The Seven-Pointed Star.

For all its comforts, though, his cell remained a cell.

A Wolf's Den is where you would expect to find a wolf pup.

It was built by Jon Stark: 

Quote

"It had been raised by King Jon Stark to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders from the sea. Many a younger son of the King in the North had made his seat there, many a brother, many an uncle, many a cousin. Some passed the castle to their own sons and grandsons, and offshoot branches of House Stark had arisen; the Greystarks had lasted the longest,"

Many a younger son, many a brother, stayed there.  Jon is the younger brother.

Jon is the only remaining male Stark with grey eyes, and this Greystark family line appears here for the first time,--it was invented for this passage.

Jon's "eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black,"

Edric Dayne "had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple."

Eddard's eyes: "dark grey"

Ashara's: "haunting violet eyes" 

The grey stark eyes appear to be recessive, as Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon have blue eyes, and only Arya and Jon have grey. 

 

Edric Snowbeard is mentioned, reminding us that Edric is a Stark name.

 

Davos talking with sailors:

The Sloe-Eyed Maid, traveled around the world, brought back precious cargo but sunk during a storm due to the Sisterton false lights when it was almost home.   Borrell mentions taking precious cargo off of a sloe-eyed maid, saffron, the most valuable spice in all the world, is the product of the Crocus--a purple and white flower.  The color sloe is dark, purple-blue (plum), and it refers to a plant with white flowers and fruit like small plums.  Ashara had white skin and purple/violet eyes, she is the sloe-eyed maid/crocus, the precious cargo taken off her was her baby (but at WhiteHarbor, not Sisterton). 

 

The sailors bring up the possibility of false history and children being alive who were thought dead:

Quote

"So they tell us," said the old fellow. "Might be they're lying, though. He died half a world away, if he died at all. Who's to say? If a king wanted me dead, might be I'd oblige him and pretend to be a corpse. None of us has ever seen his body."

"I never saw Joffrey's corpse, nor Robert's," growled the Eel's proprietor. "Maybe they're all alive as well. Maybe Baelor the Blessed's just been having him a little nap all these years."

"The old fellow made a face. "Prince Viserys weren't the only dragon, were he? Are we sure they killed Prince Rhaegar's son? A babe, he was."

"Wasn't there some princess too?" asked a whore. She was the same one who'd said the meat was grey.

"Two," said the old fellow. "One was Rhaegar's daughter, t'other was his sister."

Ashara had a child believed dead.  And they bring up Dany (a Targ) and her purple eyes, trying to get on the sloe-eyed maid, but being denied.  The sloe-eyed maid is not a Targ, but a Dayne.

 

 WhiteHarbor's church is called the Sept of the Snows.

 

The Manderly's are fiercely loyal to the Starks. "debt that can never be repaid"  Wyman has a granddaughter named Wylla, (also Wyllis, and Wynafred).   I think Wylla the wet nurse was from WhiteHarbor, someone Wyman could trust.  Wyman knows Ned's secrets.

Wylla is 15.  Her hair is dyed, as if to indicate a disguise.  She is brave and fiercely defends the Starks

Quote

"They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb," she said. "He was our king! He was brave and good, and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis." . . .

"I know about the promise," insisted the girl. "Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"

They say to Wylla, "You know nothing." After book 2 that phrase is used 33 times for Jon Snow and once here for Wylla.  24 times straight for Jon, then once for Wylla, then 9 more times for Jon.  Jon's catch phrase is being applied to Wylla.  Seems like George interrupted his pattern to draw attention to Wylla. 

 

Also, the phrase "You know nothing." is immediately followed by "I know about the promise."

Is this a reference to "Promise me Ned"?   

 

The word "willa" is a synonym for "desire, wish, pleasure, delight"--Jon's mother was lust.

 

Wyman and Wylla talk about a bastard named Snow, being legitimized and becoming Lord of Winterfell:

Quote

As to the Starks, that House is extinguished only in the male line. Lord Eddard's sons are dead, but his daughters live, and the younger girl is coming north to wed brave Ramsay Bolton."

"Ramsay Snow," Wylla Manderly threw back.

"Have it as you will. By any name, he shall soon be wed to Arya Stark. If you would keep faith with your promise, give him your allegiance, for he shall be your Lord of Winterfell."

There was also a Wylla Fenn of the Neck, who had a bastard boy with Brandon Stark named Lon Snow (Lonnel, Lonny).  "fen" means "marsh or swamp"

 

There was also a "warrior maid Wylla of Wyl in the Battle by the Bloody Pool" of House Wyl in Dorne.  The sigil of House Wyl is a snake coiled around a foot, recall that the figurehead of the Merry Maid was a woman holding an infant by the foot.  This is Achilles symbolism, as a baby he was dipped into the river Styx by his mother, and the water granted him protection, but she held him by the foot to dunk him and his heel was left vulnerable.  And Achilles died from a poisoned arrow hitting his heel.  Jon has an Achilles Heel.

 

While in conversation with Wyman, Davos thinks "Did Manderly have a Stark heir hidden away in his castle?"--(he was talking about modern events not Robert's Rebellion, though.)

 

 

Ashara is the "fisherman's daughter" seen at the Sisters, but Borrel's timeline is wrong.  She has an extended stay at WhiteHarbor and gives birth at the Wolf's Den.  That is where baby wolves should be born.

She fakes her death and joins the church in White Harbor (the Sept of the Snows), she is Septa Lemore, "Lemure" means "ghost" in Latin, Ashara faked her death.  (Also a reference to the lost love Lenore from the Raven?)  The word lemur comes from lemures, Little Valyrian lemurs have purple eyes.  Ashara had "haunting violet eyes" and she is a ghost.  fyi, ashara means the number "10" in Arabic.

There is a guy named Locke at Manderly's court, "a stocky man in white and purple, whose cloak was fastened with a pair of crossed bronze keys."  Purple and white are Ashara's colors, and crossed keys are on the papal emblems of the Catholic church. 

stretch marks, " She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye"

"Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?"

"Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Lemore is hiding because she's supposed to be dead.

 

 

Possible course of events:

Ned and Ashara fall in love at Harrenhal, have courtship, no sex.

War starts, Ned is at Vale, Ashara is at Dragonstone with Elia, Ned takes her to WhiteHarbor to keep her safe.  Goes to raise the bannerman.

Brandon dies, Ned does the strategic political maneuver and marries Cat to bring the Riverlands into the alliance and gets her pregnant, Ned is going to do the right thing and break it off with Ashara next time he sees her.

Next time he sees her he breaks his vows and they conceive Jon--don't know when he makes it to WhiteHarbor to do this. 

1) Ashara gives birth at Wolf's Den, never returns to Starfall, Ned picks up baby on way home, breaks it off with Ashara, she fakes her death and joins the church

2) Ashara gives birth at Wolf's Den, returns to Starfall at war's end, with baby, Ned swaps baby for sword, she fakes her death joins the church.

 

Ned does the "honorable" thing and leaves Ashara to return to his new wife.  That is the shame, he loved Ashara and she was soo nice, and he barely knew Cat, but to keep the alliance and hold the kingdom together he returned to Cat.  Ashara understood that Ned had to do this.

Ned did what Robb could not, and kept the alliance.

 

"I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

He dishonored Cat after the wedding.

 

Ned did break his vows and he is deeply ashamed of it, but he chose duty over love, and went back to Cat.

And has been trying to make up for it ever since.