Why “Wylla?” Meet Lyanna’s Dornish Doppelganger

[corbon]

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

I still don't see why there has to be a gap of 6 months between the Ned/Cat Jon/Lysa double wedding and the Battle of the Trident. I assume they left Riverrun to meet Rhaegar at the ruby ford because they had intel that he had returned to King's Landing and was marching for Riverrun. S

You assume. But the data we have points to Ned leaving Riverrun much much earlier than that.

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

ay it takes about a month and a half for the White Bull to ride to Tower of Joy and Rhaegar to ride back to King's Landing if both those guys are booking it. Cat says Ned lingered scarcely a fortnight - scarcely indicates it was more than a fortnight and after fifteen years her memory could be fuzzy, especially since she emphasizes in her head the shortness of the time spent. So add in a few days of wedding planning once they return to Riverrun and they could easily have spent close to a month at Riverrun.

While I don't agree with your analysis here - scarcely means 'only just' in this context, and this isn't an area or language use where hazy memory is going to work like that. Its a new bride recalling how short a time she had with her husband before he had to leave. However, thats already factored in for the '6 months'.

Robb is born in Riverrun while Ned is still "warring" in the south. Therefore Robb is conceived 9 months or more before Ned returns from the south. Therefore the latest Robb can be conceived is 3 months into a year long war, +1-3 months time for Ned's 'post-war "warring" in the south (ending Storms End siege, ToJ, Starfall visit, by which time he's definitely no longer 'warring'.)
So Robb is concieved around the 4-5 month mark into the war, give or take a month or so. Between the Trident and the Sack is about two weeks, so the Trident is about 2 weeks before the end of the war. Since Ned stayed in Rivverrun two weeks after his marriage, and concieved Robb during this time, he left Rverrun around 5-6months into the war, and thats being generous, it could have been earlier. Hence around 6 months between Ned leaving Riverrun, and the Battle of the Trident. You can probably cut to 5 months or so if you give a few extra weeks at either end, but key thing is that Robb was born while Ned was still warring in the south, and that places the conception, therefore wedding, therefore Ned leaving Riverrun, in the first half of the war for sure (actually in the first 1/4 really, but we give extra allowances here, there, and everywhere and call it the first half).

14 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

With a few days to gather themselves after the Battle of the Bells and the time it takes to travel from Stoney Sept to Riverrun, that could quite conceivably place the time of departure from Riverrun around the time of Rhaegar's departure from King's Landing. And the ruby ford is about halfway between Riverrun and King's Landing. I don't see why there needs to be a lull of 6 months. They are marching to meet Rhaegar's forces in the field when they leave Riverrun. That seems the most logical thing to me. Otherwise, why leave Riverrun so quickly?

As I said, there are plenty of other things that actually need doing before the Rebels can take on Kings Landing. They don't initially have the forces, and they certainly don't have the logistics. The first 3 months or so are chock full of movement and battles, more actually than we can fit in due to GRRM's admitted sloppy accounting in this area. There's certainly no time for the rebels to be dealing with more than a tiny handful (such as Marq Grafton) of the loyalists, in critical locations (like Gulltown, which Robert needed to sail from to get home), but we know that in all the rebel 'kingdoms' there were a mix where Lords had to chose to remain loyal to their local higher Lord to to their King.

The Logistics of a 300000-40000 man army mean that the rebels had to clean up their rear areas before they could move substantial armies about. 1 'loyalist' lord holding a keep can disrupt supplies etc to a massive degree, let alone dozens of them scattered about. We know there were many much smaller battles and skirmishes and sieges through the rebellion than we've heard about (from a SSM) - many of them must have occurred during this time.

We also see that the 'next big move' actually didn't come from the rebels anyway, but from Rhaegar. So its clear that they still weren't actually ready to move against Kings Landing even after 6 months or so. Only after Rhaegar came to them and they defeated and killed him, did they make a rush for KL, and even then, without Tywin's treachery it may not have been enough (so they weren't really ready).

Just so we are clear, when I say "6 months or more" in this fuzzy context, I'm entirely comfortable with 5.5 months. 6-7 months is a best guess, with some fuzziness.
The point is 1 month, or similar time frames, is not possible.

 

Also worth noting, Rob is officially older than Jon (whether thats true or not is not certain). This means that Robb cannot be younger than Jon in truth by more than 1-3 months (or when they are first together at 3 months or so when Cat gets to Winterfell after being apart from Ned for a year and finds Ned and Jon already there) it would be completely obvious that Jon is older (babies have massive developmental changes in their first 6 months and its nearly impossible for anyone in regular close contact with them not to notice if one is significantly ahead of the other).
We know from GRRM that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. We know Dany was born around 8-9 months after the sack. So Jon was born at most within a month or so of the sack (which ties with Ned taking several weeks to get to Storms End and then ToJ, and Lyanna dying from puerperal fever (fever, bed of blood) when he arrived, which kills up to 10 days or more after a birth). So Robb was born around the same time - around the sack or a couple of months after or so. Therefore, again, Robb was conceived from 3-5 months or so into the year long war and we have now arrived at this range by two independent means. 
First, from Catelyns' comment that Robb was born while Ned was still away in the south, second by comparing the relative ages and conception ranges of Dany, Jon and Robb.

[Syl of Syl]

52 minutes ago, corbon said:

Robb is born in Riverrun while Ned is still "warring" in the south.

Ok... the war didn't end at the Trident tho - not for Eddard at least. He went from there to King's Landing where he remained at least until after Robert arrived. He then continued to the Storm's End and eventually to the Tower of Joy and Starfall where he remained for an unspecified amount of time. Do you think it's possible that during all this time, Catelyn thought of Ned as warring to the south, since he was to the south and not yet returned from war?

I realize that there are a number of events that occur between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident, and that other than the double wedding most of them occur on the loyalist side. However, I still don't understand why that time has to be 6 months at least as you say. And for the rebels, some of this time can be filled before the wedding what with regrouping at Stoney Sept and then traveling to Riverrun and planning the nuptials.

I just don't see why they would leave Riverrun unless they had news of Rhaegar marching from King's Landing and they head out to meet him at the ruby ford. Otherwise, why leaves so quickly? Why not hang out and continue trying to convince Tywin to join you. But that's just me. I am interested if you have a link to this SSM you mentioned.

2 hours ago, corbon said:

We know there were many much smaller battles and skirmishes and sieges through the rebellion than we've heard about (from a SSM) - many of them must have occurred during this time.

 

[corbon]

58 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

Ok... the war didn't end at the Trident tho - not for Eddard at least. He went from there to King's Landing where he remained at least until after Robert arrived. He then continued to the Storm's End and eventually to the Tower of Joy and Starfall where he remained for an unspecified amount of time. Do you think it's possible that during all this time, Catelyn thought of Ned as warring to the south, since he was to the south and not yet returned from war?

Much of it certainly. Thats included in the calcs as I mentioned, time for Ned to go to Storms End and ToJ, even travel to Starfall. 

58 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

I realize that there are a number of events that occur between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident, and that other than the double wedding most of them occur on the loyalist side. However, I still don't understand why that time has to be 6 months at least as you say. And for the rebels, some of this time can be filled before the wedding what with regrouping at Stoney Sept and then traveling to Riverrun and planning the nuptials.

No, most of it can't. The defining factor is Robb being born while Ned is still in the south. And Robb is conceived after Ned's wedding (Catelyn had never seen Ned before the wedding). Plus you have Catelyns explicit memory that Ned had only been with her two weeks before he left Riverrun. You can stretch that out a few extra days maybe, but not 6 months extra.
So the sum of it is that even if you give Ned 3 months in the South "warring" (and by Starfall the warring is definitely done), Robb is still conceived in the first half of the war. And Ned leaves Riverrun within 2 weeks at most of Robb's conception.

58 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

I just don't see why they would leave Riverrun unless they had news of Rhaegar marching from King's Landing and they head out to meet him at the ruby ford. Otherwise, why leaves so quickly? Why not hang out and continue trying to convince Tywin to join you. 

I have explained that twice already.

Whatever the reason was, Catelyn explicitly tells us they did. Find another reason you prefer rather than the ones I gave if you like, but the relevant thing is that Ned did leave Riverrun and ride off back to war scarcely two weeks after his wedding.

58 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

But that's just me. I am interested if you have a link to this SSM you mentioned.

The SSM search engine isn't working for me at the moment, so sorry, no.

I don't really understand what your issue is to be honest. Why must Ned hang around at Riverrun doing nothing for months (he can treat with Tywin etc just as well on campaign as from Riverrun, as Robb proved), against Catelyn's explicit recall, just so that he can go from there to the Trident? And then he has to hang around at Starfall for as many months, doing literally nothing except avoid his responsibilities (Ned?) and family (Ned?) after the war to match the timings. And then the Dany/Jon/Robb age comparisons fail.
You seem to be hung up on the 6 months number. Don't be, its not critical in itself, its just the number that roughly works out when we tie all we know together. A bit more or less (more likely more, but could be less) is fine.

 

[Syl of Syl]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I don't really understand what your issue is to be honest. Why must Ned hang around at Riverrun doing nothing for months (he can treat with Tywin etc just as well on campaign as from Riverrun, as Robb proved), against Catelyn's explicit recall, just so that he can go from there to the Trident? And then he has to hang around at Starfall for as many months, doing literally nothing except avoid his responsibilities (Ned?) and family (Ned?) after the war to match the timings. And then the Dany/Jon/Robb age comparisons fail.

I don't think he did hang around Riverrun for months. I don't think I said anything of that sort and certainly didn't mean to give the impression that that I is what I thought. I agree that the fortnight bit from Catelyn is quite explicit as to their Riverrun stay.

My issue is that I don't understand why this means that the Battle of the Trident had to be 6 months after they left Riverrun. I fully acknowledged that you could be correct, and if there is an SSM stating such then I believe you. I just was curious what the reason was since you seemed so confident in that specific timeline of events. The logic wasn't making sense to me and still doesn't really to be honest, but that's neither here nor there. I'll figure it out sometime when I feel up to wading through all the Robert's Rebellion timelines again.

[Ser Leftwich]

50 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

I don't think he did hang around Riverrun for months. I don't think I said anything of that sort and certainly didn't mean to give the impression that that I is what I thought. I agree that the fortnight bit from Catelyn is quite explicit as to their Riverrun stay.

My issue is that I don't understand why this means that the Battle of the Trident had to be 6 months after they left Riverrun. I fully acknowledged that you could be correct, and if there is an SSM stating such then I believe you. I just was curious what the reason was since you seemed so confident in that specific timeline of events. The logic wasn't making sense to me and still doesn't really to be honest, but that's neither here nor there. I'll figure it out sometime when I feel up to wading through all the Robert's Rebellion timelines again.

Pretty sure there is an SSM, but searches are not working.

That being said, I just threw together a thread about this.

 

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

I don't think he did hang around Riverrun for months. I don't think I said anything of that sort and certainly didn't mean to give the impression that that I is what I thought. I agree that the fortnight bit from Catelyn is quite explicit as to their Riverrun stay.

My issue is that I don't understand why this means that the Battle of the Trident had to be 6 months after they left Riverrun. I fully acknowledged that you could be correct, and if there is an SSM stating such then I believe you.

The SSM's I'm thinking of merely indicate that there are many small battles, skirmishes and sieges that are not mentioned in the books. I'm not aware of anything that specifically says there was X amount of time between Bells and Trident

5 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

I just was curious what the reason was since you seemed so confident in that specific timeline of events. The logic wasn't making sense to me and still doesn't really to be honest, but that's neither here nor there. I'll figure it out sometime when I feel up to wading through all the Robert's Rebellion timelines again.

I'm very confident because its backed up by the Dany/Jon/Robb age analysis. Dany's birth is fairly well nailed down. She was born 9 moons/months (GRRM uses the terms more or less interchangeably) after Rhaella and Viserys fled to Dragonstone, which happened after Aerys got news of the Trident. GRRM has also said that Dany is about 8-9 months older than Jon. So Jon is born roughly around the end of the war, maybe a month or so after (say, at ToJ up to 10 days before Ned arrives). Robb must therefore be born roughly around the end of the war (or earlier), not more than a month or two after Jon, else it would be obvious when 3 month old Robb met 6+month old Jon that Jon was older.
Adding the fuzziness into this, we can say that Robb is born around month 13-15 max after the war started, and therefore was conceived month 4-6 into the war. Which means Ned left Riverrun at least 5 months, probably 6, maybe up to 7 or 8 before end of the war (we start to get squeezed at the top end only by trying to fit everything in that happened in the early part of the war).

This fits perfectly with everything we know about the war.
1. There is an early rush, the war officially starts IIRC at Gulltown and Robert and Ned head home to call their banners (clearly having actually called said banners by raven while still in the vale).
2. Robert has a bunch of early battles, including the famous 3 in one day (which are clearly fairly small scale) during his 'raising his banners first month or so'. Ned's a bit behind I guess because he (and his bannermen) have much greater distances to traverse, both to get home, and to get south again.
3. Robert advances to meet the Tyrells and loses, retreats north to his allies. This is still very early, maybe a couple of months in or so, maybe 3, because from here the Tyrells siege Storms End and the siege supposedly lasts 'almost a year', yet the whole war (Gulltown to Sack) only lasted about a year.
4. Connington spends some time chasing wounded Robert around the Riverlands and catches him at Stoney Sept, but Ned and Hoster (and the Arryns, since Jon's heir Ser Denys was killed) arrive with their army and put Connington to flight.
This is the first arrival on the scene of the Northmen and Vale forces, and is the next major thing to happen after Robert's defeat at Ashford. Its likely to be about 3 months or so into the war, maybe 4, give or take a bit, since that fits Robert's heading north after Ashford as well as Ned and Jon Arryn arriving as fast as possible with their first (best, probably mostly mounted) levies.
5. Then the alliance is hastly sealed with the two weddings. Call it month 5 maybe, probably a bit earlier.
6. two weeks later Ned heads off again to war. Call it 6 months, probably a bit earlier, perhaps as early as 4 months.
...

Most of the Northern levies are still on their way south or gathering at this point. Probably some in the vale as well. Plus you've still got the Lords that stayed loyal to the Targaryens to deal with. There's plenty to do during 'the lull' o the rebel side, and on the Targ side you've got Hightower finding Rhaegar and Rahegar returning, while Selmy and Darry reconstitute the royal army and the Dornish arrive. There's no indication that Rhaegar rushed off to the Trident immediately after getting back either.

...
7. The Trident happens only 2 weeks or so before the end of the war, as Ned left immediately after and raced to KL, where the Sack is the official end of the war.
8. After the Sack, Ned leaves rather quickly, angry with Robert. He heads straight to Storms End as lives are on the line and ends the siege there. Then he disappears with a few picked men, does the TJ thing and goes to Starfall. He then heads back to Winterfell, via Kl to reconcile with Robert (but Robert doesn't meet Wylla). 

 

[norwaywolf123]

Were the 'tower of joy' guarded by the kingsguards as some kind of decoy? The kingsguard and Ned's companions beside Howland did die?

[FictionIsntReal]

On 4/1/2019 at 4:37 PM, corbon said:

But even then, its not so much that they have a "story", its that Edric Dayne "knows" something. Its not necessarily a promulgated story that is official at Starfall. For all we know it is just a random fact that he "knows" because he's heard it from somewhere and never doubted it.

Where would he hear it? Well, his other attributed source is his Aunt Allyria. Its likely she's the source for this too. Its possible Wylla is the source, but its not necessary, not indicated, and not likely when you assess the context.

Edric gives Allyria as his source for the story about Ashara & Ned being in love. He also says Wylla has served his family for years, including by nursing him. Neither Ned nor Ashara were around to confirm Allyria's story about them, but surely Wylla herself would be capable of recounting her own purported history. You noted how odd it is to have both Ashara as Ned's lover & Wylla as the mother of his child, so it's slightly less odd if the two stories came from different people.

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Its possible Edric has talked to Wylla directly about Jon. But I can very easily see him asking her if Jon was his milk brother, and her confirming that. Thats of interest to a small boy. Why he would ask her if she was Jon Snow's mother, makes no sense at all. What would a small boy care about who the mother is of some other small boy he's never met who's not related and a bastard to boot?

Noble children are expected to know family trees, it's a big part of their education. It's considered impolite to ask about a nobleman's bastard offspring, but Edric knew Wylla at a young enough age not to have learned such social graces and he'd be asking a wetnurse rather than a noble.

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The only way I can see that we can maintain consistency between all the various stories and the attitude, actions, character and words of Ned Stark, is that when Ned and Robert met to reconcile after Lyanna's death, Robert the King had already had a report about Ned riding in to Starfall with Jon being nursed by Wylla. So Robert brought up the subject (Ned wouldn't) and Robert had already made the same assumption that Starfall did about Wylla being the mum, and just as we saw in the second conversation he made statements that Ned did not answer. He did ask the wetnurse's name, and Ned accurately gave him the name Wylla.

So, just as in the conversation we saw, Ned has never actually claimed Wylla is Jon's mum. But he has lived the lie, even if he didn't tell it, by allowing Robert to believe it.

Ned definitely tells Robert that his bastard's mother is Wylla.

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what was her name, that common girl of yours? [...] Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

You see Robert asking about Ned's bastard's mother, and Ned responds that her name was Wylla. Ned isn't some rules-lawyer willing to be as misleading as possible but never actually lie. When necessary, he will outright lie, as he does here, and later when he "confesses" on the steps of Baelor.

 

On 4/2/2019 at 6:20 PM, corbon said:

All he's gone along with on Wylla is that Robert thinks she's the woman that Ned lost his honour over. He doesn't 'go along' with Robert on her being Jon;s mum, he lets that slide. Its not the same thing. Holding your peace is not the same as agreeing.

No, as I quoted above, Ned gives the name Wylla specifically in response to Robert asking about Ned's bastard's mother. The only possible way one could spin that as not being about Jon Snow is if you thought Ned Stark had a different bastard. There's no distinction in Robert's question between "the woman that Ned Stark lost his honor over" and "bastard's mother". There's no basis for saying Ned is responding to one part of the question over another.

[corbon]

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Edric gives Allyria as his source for the story about Ashara & Ned being in love. He also says Wylla has served his family for years, including by nursing him. Neither Ned nor Ashara were around to confirm Allyria's story about them, but surely Wylla herself would be capable of recounting her own purported history.

And why would anyone ask? And why would she be presenting herself as the lover who helped destroy Ashara Dayne?

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You noted how odd it is to have both Ashara as Ned's lover & Wylla as the mother of his child, so it's slightly less odd if the two stories came from different people.

Fair enough. Its still utterly incongruous and indicates just how little the Dayne children actually know (or understand) about the past.

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Noble children are expected to know family trees, it's a big part of their education. It's considered impolite to ask about a nobleman's bastard offspring, but Edric knew Wylla at a young enough age not to have learned such social graces and he'd be asking a wetnurse rather than a noble.

Their own family tree, yes. But not every family tree in the seven Kingdoms. We see an older (than Edric's 6 when he left home) Bran know House sigils, when Robb's bannermen are gathering. We see squire Pod impressing Tyrion just by knowing the banners/sigils of the Dornish contingent coming to KL in aSoS. I don't see any indication that a 6 yr old boy is expected to learn family trees of nobles at the far end of westeros - and especially not bastards.

For me, this answer is completely insufficient.

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Ned definitely tells Robert that his bastard's mother is Wylla.

You see Robert asking about Ned's bastard's mother, and Ned responds that her name was Wylla. Ned isn't some rules-lawyer willing to be as misleading as possible but never actually lie. When necessary, he will outright lie, as he does here, and later when he "confesses" on the steps of Baelor.

Please see the breakdown I made here.

Ned was not playing "rules-lawyer" or "word-gamer" (though GRRM might be accused of such on his behalf). He answered the simple truth as it was the only answer he could possible give and get away with. He was fortunate that GRRM made Robert ask his question in such a way that Ned didn't need to lie. And maybe he would have lied if he'd needed to. But he didn't.

Ned did not tell Robert that his bastard's mother was named Wylla. Robert told Ned that the woman he was thinking of, whose name he couldn't remember, was Ned's bastard's mother. Ned ignored that and answered exactly what Robert asked - "What was her name, that common girl of yours?" <the "that one time" girl, that super duper wench that I never got a look at who made you forget your precious honour one time, you know, your bastard's mother>.

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, as I quoted above, Ned gives the name Wylla specifically in response to Robert asking about Ned's bastard's mother. The only possible way one could spin that as not being about Jon Snow is if you thought Ned Stark had a different bastard. There's no distinction in Robert's question between "the woman that Ned Stark lost his honor over" and "bastard's mother". There's no basis for saying Ned is responding to one part of the question over another.

I'm not saying that. You didn't pay attention to your own quote. I'm pointing out that the one question, satisfied by one answer, was "what was that (singular, super duper, special, (common),) woman's name?" The "your bastards mother" part is a statement by Robert, not a question.

You cannot point to Robert asking was "was {X/she) your bastards mother?" anywhere.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 4/7/2019 at 5:10 PM, corbon said:

And why would anyone ask? And why would she be presenting herself as the lover who helped destroy Ashara Dayne?

Fair enough. Its still utterly incongruous and indicates just how little the Dayne children actually know (or understand) about the past.

Given that Ned & Edric both give Wylla as the name of Jon Snow's mother despite being distant from each other and having no interaction with each other, we can guess that this was decided upon back when Ned was last near Starfall. Allyria is too young have been part of that coordination. Catelyn & Cersei have both heard the rumors about Ned & Ashara, so Allyria's account could be traced back to those same rumors. One possible problem with this is that if Wylla has been serving the Daynes as a wetnurse all this time, Allyria seems just as likely as Edric to hear from her that she's Jon Snow's mother. We don't know how she'd reconcile that with the rumors about Ashara.

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Their own family tree, yes. But not every family tree in the seven Kingdoms. We see an older (than Edric's 6 when he left home) Bran know House sigils, when Robb's bannermen are gathering. We see squire Pod impressing Tyrion just by knowing the banners/sigils of the Dornish contingent coming to KL in aSoS. I don't see any indication that a 6 yr old boy is expected to learn family trees of nobles at the far end of westeros - and especially not bastards.

For me, this answer is completely insufficient.

The Starks aren't just another noble family, they are the highest noble family of the North, kings in their own right prior to the Conquest, and more recently played a major role in the downfall of the Targaryen dynasty and the ascendance of Robert Baratheon. Specifically relevant to the Daynes, it was Ned Stark who slew Arthur (along with two other kingsguard) and returned Dawn at the end of the rebellion.

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Please see the breakdown I made here.

Ned was not playing "rules-lawyer" or "word-gamer" (though GRRM might be accused of such on his behalf). He answered the simple truth as it was the only answer he could possible give and get away with. He was fortunate that GRRM made Robert ask his question in such a way that Ned didn't need to lie. And maybe he would have lied if he'd needed to. But he didn't.

Ned did not tell Robert that his bastard's mother was named Wylla. Robert told Ned that the woman he was thinking of, whose name he couldn't remember, was Ned's bastard's mother. Ned ignored that and answered exactly what Robert asked - "What was her name, that common girl of yours?" <the "that one time" girl, that super duper wench that I never got a look at who made you forget your precious honour one time, you know, your bastard's mother>.

I'm not saying that. You didn't pay attention to your own quote. I'm pointing out that the one question, satisfied by one answer, was "what was that (singular, super duper, special, (common),) woman's name?" The "your bastards mother" part is a statement by Robert, not a question.

You cannot point to Robert asking was "was {X/she) your bastards mother?" anywhere.

Robert doesn't need to ask "Was Wylla your bastard's mother" because Ned had already told him that before, Robert just forgot the name, and when Robert asks about Ned's bastard's mother, he gives the same name again. Your "analysis" doesn't change that Robert plainly IS asking for the name of the bastard's mother. He's not asking a question like "What number am I thinking of between one and ten?" And the thing that makes Wylla Ned's is that he knocked her up with Jon. If I asked Vladimir Vavilov "Who was that Renaissance Italian composer whose work you played earlier? You told me at the time. You know, the song was titled 'Ave Maria'"? and he answered "Giulio Caccini", he'd be affirming that Caccini wrote Ave Maria (even though it was actually Vavilov himself who wrote it, though it was falsely attributed it to Caccini). If it later comes to light that Vavilov wrote it, he couldn't say "I didn't lie, I just ignored the bit where you clarified that you were asking about the composer who wrote Ave Maria". That's not how questions and answers work. The clarification applies to the question, essentially making it a big logical AND.

[sweetsunray]

@Sly Wren nice find and connection you made. I do think you forget another possible scenario... a reversed one, where Lyanna and Rhaegar first arrived at Starfall before they went to the ToJ.

Wylla (disguised Lyanna) may have come to Dorne via Starfall and by ship (likely via Maidenpool). With Arthur Dayne and Ashara as siblings and being part of the story, this is actually a likely route, and would explain how Rhaegar went off the radar. Ashara may have been part of the original company on the voyage. In that time Brandon rushes to King's Landing to demand a duel with Rhaegar who's not there. Lyanna and Rhaegar know nothing for a long while, as they are on a ship, and not until they actually reach Starfall do they learn of the Mad King's actions (the time for Rhaegar to reach Starfall by ship is likely around the same as it takes Rickard to go to King's Landing). At this point Lyanna as disguised Wylla and Rhaegar have a fight (what the green dyed Wylla Manderly to Rhaegar Frey alludes to). Having learned what happened to her brother and father, she wants to return, "make it all alright" again, (show Westeros that she's Rhaegar's  wife). Rhaegar and the kingsguard are of a different mind: the damage is done, you can't undo the past. Lyanna coming out of hiding won't do any good whatsoever, except put her own life in danger. Even if Elia Martell was in the know, the princess of Dorne and the Viper would not have been. If Lyanna came out at that time, the risk that Martells would assassinate her was enormous, especially if Lyanna attempted to do so, in Dorne. Aerys too has become so violent that he may just decide to burn Lyanna too. And around that time, Lyanna also discovers she's pregnant, and the first news of a rebellion in the making in the Vale arrives.

They have to go in hiding. The risk of people and consequentionally the Martells finding out Wylla's identity is too great for Lyanna. Aerys cannot discover where Rhaegar is or his kingsguard, because that would give Aerys the power to order Rhaegar and the KG to return to KL. And Starfall cannot keep these just arrived guests either, as it directly puts their hous at risk. That's when they go to the ToJ in hiding, with Rhaegar believing that the rebellion will soon be at an end.

You thus would have a reverse parallel of Sansa's disguise story, a parallel with Wylla Manderly lashing out at Rhaegar out of Stark loyalty, and a parallel of Jeyne Poole originally at Winterfell only to flee to Castle Black (and perhaps we learn of Jeyne being stuck in the same tower that Bran hid in at the Gift). 

Eventually Rhaegar's found and ordered to lead an army against Robert, who survived the Battle of the Bells. He dies and Ned shows up, finds Lyanna with her newborn child and kills the KG (the order doesn't matter here for the moment). Ned picks one of the servants as Jon's wetnurse and she has to go by the name Wylla and returns to Starfall with Arthur's sword and Lyanna's child. Ned claims the child is his father, while people at Starfall think Wylla the wetnurse is the mother. Neither Ashara nor the Lord of Starfall do anything to dissuade them from believing wetnurse Wylla is the mother. He leaves to go North with Jon, and Ashara commits suicide over all the tragic things that happened and the role she played in it.

At King's Landing, people learn of Ashara's suicide and can't even fattom why, except perhaps this rumor there was a baby at Starfall, but not there anymore. Combined with some flirtation that occurred between Ashara and Brandon/Ned people outside of Dorne make up this story how she was with child and it was stillborn, and how Ned may have disgraced or spurned her to explain Starfall's unwillingness to expand on it. At Starfall people know the babe to be Jon, Ned's bastard, and also know Ashara wasn't with child but grieving over her brother's death, and Wylla who remained on as wetnurse is still believed to have been Jon's mother. Robert hears of the Ashara rumors, which he likely found queer - he knows Ned and was present at the Tourney of HH, and thus in the know that nothing ever happened between Ashara and Ned. So, he inquires after the mother with people of Starfall or Dorne, and learns that a Wylla is supposedly the mother of Ned's bastard.