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It is written that Tywin was the youngest Hand of the King at the age of 20 (and a great argument for why narcissistic-sociopaths should not be given both power and wealth at a young age.) , yet at the end of F&B Viserys is 14 and Aegon has (partially justifiably) fired his Hand of the King. He also has been stuck in the Red Keep for just about all his life. Oakenfist is never listed as a Hand of the King and there does not seem to be a mention of any other strong supporters of Aegon just yet. So, is Tywin's status as youngest only honorary? (Youngest Hand of the King who wasn't a Targaryen? This also ties in with the Valarr/Hand question because it lets us know how old Valarr had to be in 209 if this is not the case and if he was the Hand.) If this is not the case, do we have any theories for what House, or briefly mentioned character, could/would be chosen by Aegon?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

It is written that Tywin was the youngest Hand of the King at the age of 20 (and a great argument for why narcissistic-sociopaths should not be given both power and wealth at a young age.) ,

How? His twenty years as Hand to Aerys was hardly a bad thing for the realm. 

Also curious how you've assessed that teenage Tywin is a narcissistic-sociopath?

Quote

 

yet at the end of F&B Viserys is 14 and Aegon has (partially justifiably) fired his Hand of the King. He also has been stuck in the Red Keep for just about all his life. Oakenfist is never listed as a Hand of the King and there does not seem to be a mention of any other strong supporters of Aegon just yet. So, is Tywin's status as youngest only honorary? (Youngest Hand of the King who wasn't a Targaryen? This also ties in with the Valarr/Hand question because it lets us know how old Valarr had to be in 209 if this is not the case and if he was the Hand.) If this is not the case, do we have any theories for what House, or briefly mentioned character, could/would be chosen by Aegon?

We don;t know how many Hands Aegon III had before he appointed his brother or who they were, just that Viserys became his Hand in the last years of his reign. 

His brother, Prince Viserys—who in his last years served as his Hand—had the gift of charm, but he himself grew stern after his wife abandoned him and their children for her native Lys.

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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No, this means that Aegon III just has a Hand - or likely a succession of Hands - who we simply do not yet know at this point. Viserys II will likely only take over the office in his twenties, meaning at least six years after the end of the Regency, around 142 AC.

I expect that an important reason as to why he might decide not to glue himself to his brother as Hand as soon as he could take the office - which technically would be as soon as he became an adult, too - is the Larra crisis. It is quite clear why the hell Larra Rogare is *never* going to feel at home in the racist, xenophobic, intolerant shit-hole that is King's Landing, so Viserys may have been seriously tempted to save his marriage by accompanying Larra back to Lys, possibly even making extended visits with her after she left him, trying to convince her to return. During that time he wouldn't have been of much use as Hand, anyway. It may be that only changed after death finally separated him from Larra for good, in 145 AC.

However, it also seems clear to me that Viserys would always be the true Hand, never mind the actual title. Aegon III is going to name a Hand of his own choosing, a man he likely trusts more than Torrhen Manderly, but he is not going to trust such a person as much as he will always trust his own brother. And Viserys is already the one who is acting as a stand-in for the king during the Regency when he prefers to ignore his court and government, so we can expect him to continue that trait. If Viserys sits in the king's chair in the council chamber in the king's absence, for instance, then the Hand will be subservient to him, even if the Hand should be the guy to speak with the King's Voice.

That said, we have no reason to assume that Alyn Velaryon did not serve as Aegon III's Hand for a time. Although it is quite clear that he cannot be Aegon III's first Hand after the end of the Regency since he has just left for his second voyage. Quite a few names have been mentioned as candidates for Aegon III's unknown Hand(s). Kermit Tully seems to be at the top of the list, Cregan Stark would be a good candidate, too, although it seems less likely he would answer such a call (although not completely impossible).

Benjicot Blackwood is also a good candidate, although he can just be a replacement Hand before the eventual appointment of Viserys due to his age. One could imagine a list like that. Kermit could be the first Hand, followed by Alyn Velaryon after the return from his second or third or even his final voyage (depending whether some only come later in his life or not) since he is the kind of guy who wouldn't be a great Hand in his youth (which is why I think he may have also served as Hand to Viserys II as a much more mature man - we know he must have been at court in a crucial position to start his affair with the freed Princess Elaena), and after him could come Benjicot.

If Viserys only took the office in the 150s then there would be room for some more Hands - Garmund Hightower springs to mind, if he and Rhaena end up living at court rather than Dragonstone or Oldtown, and we should also keep the new Arryn regime - Lord Joffrey and the Gilded Falcon who rose to Master of Coin at the end of the Regency - in mind. One of them might have risen to the Handship, too. Joffrey was Jeyne's man, which means that he was likely a friend of Rhaenyra's, too - and Rhaena's, who lived as a ward in the Vale.

I'd be surprised to see a Baratheon or Lannister get the Handship. Of the former Greens Garmund Hightower is only a candidate because he will eventually marry Lady Rhaena - which, in light of him being merely a third son, is not likely going to be an arranged or enforced match but rather something that develops rather unexpectedly. Not to mention that the Hightowers are those Greens who were able to reconcile very quickly with the Iron Throne thanks to the work of Lady Sam and Alyn Velaryon. Alyn and Lyonel seem to have become very good friends when the former visited Oldtown.

Considering it seems not very likely that Valarr was already twenty in 209 AC (noblemen/princes at that age usually have already started tourney life, indicating that Valarr was a couple of years younger, perhaps as old or slightly younger than Daeron the Drunken), chances are not that bad that he never served as Hand, and the Hand mentioned to have died in 209 AC was not, in fact, Valarr, but rather some other guy.

In any case, chances are not that high that Daeron II would have named a young man his Hand who had just lost his father, just as a man this wise and learned didn't name Baelor his Hand when he was just around twenty.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

How? His twenty years as Hand to Aerys was hardly a bad thing for the realm. 

Also curious how you've assessed that teenage Tywin is a narcissistic-sociopath?

First off I didn't assess that a teenage Tywin was a narcissitic-sociopath I proclaim that Tywin was a narcissistic sociopath. Here's a collection of symptoms and behaviors from the mayoclinic 

Quote
  • Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
  • Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
  • Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
  • Exaggerate achievements and talents
  • Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
  • Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
  • Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
  • Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
  • Take advantage of others to get what they want
  • Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
  • Be envious of others and believe others envy them
  • Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
  • Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office
  • Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special treatment
  • Have significant interpersonal problems and easily feel slighted
  • React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior
  • Have difficulty regulating emotions and behavior
  • Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change
  • Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection
  • Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation

So there are a lot of them here so let me know which ones you think don't apply to Tywin. We can't know for sure about the last one, and I'd say the three before that are ones he does not demonstrate, save for the fourth one from the bottom possibly applying to his actions as a child. 

As for the sociopath here's my top ten in no order 

1. Ordered the gang rape of a fourteen year old girl. Then when asked whether he would order Gregor to rape Elia deny that he would ever order a rape to Tyrion's face. 

2. Ordering the murder of Aegon, Rhaenys, Elia, the Last Lord Tarbeck, and everyone in Castamere. 

3. His first reaction to Tyrion being arrested for a crime is to send Gregor Clegane raping and burning in the Riverlands. 

4. Is a total hypocrite when it comes to his "if there is a fault in the discipline of the men it falls in the commander, but you can't blame me for what Gregor and Amory Lorch do."  

5. Repealing Aegon's reforms. Contrary to what Tywin, Yandel, and Pycelle want us to believe he did not give the realm twenty years of peace, he resigned after the Kingswood Brotherhood battles, and Duskendale. The former the could have conceivably cost the life of Princess Elia, Gerold Hightower, Jaime, and Arthur Dayne. 

6. His treatment of his father's second mistress. 

7. His treatment of his children. Using them as only tools and extensions of himself. 

8. His treatment of Tyrion (this one needs to be said twice.) 

9. His rule was not actually that good, every action he took was pretty much an extension of benefiting himself. Down to trying to get Tygett appointed master-at-arms and marry Cersei to Rhaegar. 

10. His organization of the Red Wedding, forcing Sansa and Tyrion to marry, consistently arbitrarily marrying into places or allotting lands for his family's gain, and refusing to accept various realities such as Tyrion's worth or Cersei's affair. 

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Viserys wasn't Hand until the last years of Aegon III's reign when he would have been in his thirties. Here's the reference from WOIAF:

Quote

His brother, Prince Viserys—who in his last years served as his Hand—had the gift of charm, but he himself grew stern after his wife abandoned him and their children for her native Lys.

So there were certainly other hands. If it's not one of the candidates Lord Varys breaks down, I could see maybe Munkun as a possibility. Otherwise, it's going to be some characters we haven't seen yet. I don't really see the Lads or Alyn Oakenfist. Bloody Ben is too young. And he and Kermit Tully have too much personality. Alyn is a dear friend, but I think he'll be needed as Master of ships, since I don't see them keeping Gedmund Peake around and it is a post we know Alyn has when Daeron the Young Dragon takes over.

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One other possibility is Lyonel Hightower. Aegon III doesn't have many friends when Fire & Blood ends. He's basically got his brother Viserys and Alyn Velaryon. I'm guessing if it is not Alyn himself, then at least Alyn's got a hand in picking the Hand. And we saw that Alyn got pretty friendly with Lord Lyonel when he visited Oldtown on his way to take on the Red Kraken, so it's a pretty logical choice.

 

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6 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

One other possibility is Lyonel Hightower. Aegon III doesn't have many friends when Fire & Blood ends. He's basically got his brother Viserys and Alyn Velaryon. I'm guessing if it is not Alyn himself, then at least Alyn's got a hand in picking the Hand. And we saw that Alyn got pretty friendly with Lord Lyonel when he visited Oldtown on his way to take on the Red Kraken, so it's a pretty logical choice.

 

Runs into the same problem as Bloody Ben and Kermit though. Lyonel's still quite young at the end of the regency.

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Personally I could see a few hands like Lord Varys suggests. We've got a twenty year period and Viserys doesn't become the official Hand until later in Aegon's reign (Personally I think this will mean from 145, when Larra Rogare dies) so I imagine there will be quite the revolving door of hands between the end of the regency and the time Viserys gets named as Hand. I reckon Kermit might be the first, then Alyn briefly before maybe Lyonel, Munkin and Garmund.

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7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

First off I didn't assess that a teenage Tywin was a narcissitic-sociopath I proclaim that Tywin was a narcissistic sociopath. Here's a collection of symptoms and behaviors from the mayoclinic 

Dude, weak, weak diagnosis. 

 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

So there are a lot of them here so let me know which ones you think don't apply to Tywin.

Gladly. 

Quote

Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance

How on earth have you came to this conclusion? He's the most powerful Lord in Westeros, the father-in-law to the King and grandfather to royalty. 

He's not deluded enough to crown himself king, to directly challenge Aerys by himself and to recognize that Robert was more powerful him towards the

There is nothing exaggerated about his self- importance in their society. Your argument is incredibly flawed if you are leading with this. 

 

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Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration

Go on then, 10 examples of him requiring "constant, excessive admiration"?

 

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Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it

lol are  you serious? 

Do you really not understand the premise of the series? Tywin, Ned, Doran etc. are not called Lords due to narcism, its the culture of their world. 

 

Quote

Exaggerate achievements and talents

By all means quote examples from the book. 

 

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Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office

Except this is clearly not true. During Robert's reign he was happy to sit on the sidelines, no position on the Small Council for Tywin, zero suggestion that he tried or insisted to do so. 

 

Quote

Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate

By all means, evidence of these fantasies?

 

Quote

Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people

That's a society issue, not a Tywin one.   The nobles believe they are superior, they tend to socialize with other nobles.

Westeros is an elitist society. 

 

Quote

Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior

Again, not actually true. Tywin's MO at council meetings is to say little, let others talk and have Kevan sheppard the conversation. 

Nor is he often belittling people, people like Ser Swyft are socially beneath him, as are the likes of Varys and Littlefinger, he's not constantly belittling them. 

 

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Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations

Again, you can't be this unaware of the society of Westeros, can you?


 

Quote

 

Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special treatment


 

5 examples of this? 

Infact Tywin's calmness and willingness to work with Aerys in the face of constant disrespect kind of disproves that. 

Obviously Tywin is not a robot, he's human, there are instances of anger but not to the level you are suggesting. 

 

Quote

Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection

Evidence? 

Quote

Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection

Evidence?

 

Quote

Have difficulty regulating emotions and behavior

This is clearly not true, he's incredibly calm in the council meeting on hearing Jaime's defeat, it is only after he is alone with Tyrion and Kevan does he show emotion to the capture of Jaime. 

The same is true at Harrenhal when the war is looking bleak he, from the POV of Arya, remains composed and professional. 

Also when he learns of Tyrion's threats on his Grandsons, he keeps his (more than justified) anger a private matter between father & son. 

Quote

React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior

We've seen this once, upon Tyrion admitting the truth of threatening the lives of his grandsons. It is not usual Tywin behaviour. 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

 

 

We can't know for sure about the last one, and I'd say the three before that are ones he does not demonstrate, save for the fourth one from the bottom possibly applying to his actions as a child. 

He barely demonstrates any of them and the ones he does are a societal problem.  The fact that you don't get that is a little bizarre, either you are deliberately missing the point or your reading of the series is lacking. 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

As for the sociopath here's my top ten in no order 

1. Ordered the gang rape of a fourteen year old girl. Then when asked whether he would order Gregor to rape Elia deny that he would ever order a rape to Tyrion's face. 

Elia is a Princess, Tysha a homeless peasant. Westeros does not view them as being equal.

Westeros is a caste system, the nobility are thought of as better so as sickening and unfair to us, in their world Elia is not comparable to Tysha.  

Its similar to how Robb refuses to trade Jaime for his sisters, they are not worth the same or how Robb is willing to trade a 100 men for Jon.

"If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."

GRRM has been more than clear on the hierarchy of  Westeros. 

 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

2. Ordering the murder of Aegon, Rhaenys, Elia, the Last Lord Tarbeck, and everyone in Castamere. 

An awful part of medieval war. But Aegon and Rhaenys are certainly up there. Castamere was not, castles and their occupants are destroyed in wars, especially when they refuse to surrender. 

"That will not be easily done," her uncle cautioned. "Lord Frey has pulled his whole strength back inside his castles, and his gates are closed and barred."

"Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!"

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

3. His first reaction to Tyrion being arrested for a crime is to send Gregor Clegane raping and burning in the Riverlands. 

Tyrion was not arrested, he was abducted and Cat purposefully lied about where she was taking him. 

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

Tywin acted like most nobles do, Robb also goes to war when his father is legally arrested. 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

4. Is a total hypocrite when it comes to his "if there is a fault in the discipline of the men it falls in the commander, but you can't blame me for what Gregor and Amory Lorch do."  

Do you not understand what quotation marks are for? 

Tywin never claims that he was not to blame, just that he never ordered it and he (nobody else) was not aware of what Gregor was. 

He's not saying he's blameless, pointing out he made a mistake.

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

5. Repealing Aegon's reforms. Contrary to what Tywin, Yandel, and Pycelle want us to believe he did not give the realm twenty years of peace,

Yeah, he did. 

If you can find a quote from the author or the text disputing the 20 years of peace then please provide it, otherwise its just whining about the accomplishments of a character you don't like and has nothing to do with the topic. 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

he resigned after the Kingswood Brotherhood battles, and Duskendale.

lol come on. 20 years of peace does not mean not a single fight broke out in those 20 years. This is needlessly pedantic. 

In the 20 years Tywin was Hand it was far more peaceful than the 20 years before and the 20 years after

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

 

The former the could have conceivably cost the life of Princess Elia, Gerold Hightower, Jaime, and Arthur Dayne. 

But they didn't. did they?

You truly are grasping. 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

6. His treatment of his father's second mistress. 

What about it? How does it relate to narcissism? 

At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! - Kevan

Its not like Tytos' other mistresses suffered similar punishments, just the one who stole from the Lannisters

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

7. His treatment of his children. Using them as only tools and extensions of himself. 

eh? Please go on, elaborate. Go into further detail as I'm more than happy to go over this one with you, but be less vague. 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

8. His treatment of Tyrion (this one needs to be said twice.) 

Outside of Tysha, his treatment of Tyrion has been fine. Few, if any, dwarfs in their society have been treated better than Tyrion. 

"At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?"

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

9. His rule was not actually that good,

Evidence? Evidence for the two

  • that his rule of the Westerlands was not good
  • that his term as Hand was not good
7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

every action he took was pretty much an extension of benefiting himself.

No, it was not. 

It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown's dispute with the Braavosi (though without "making the Titan kneel," to the king's displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself. 

This benefits the realm far more than it does Tywin

Tywin built new roads and repaired old ones, held many splendid tournaments about the realm to the delight of knights and commons both, cultivated trade with the Free Cities, and sternly punished bakers found guilty of adding sawdust to their bread and butchers selling horsemeat as beef.

This benefits the realm far more than it does Tywin

You are clearly getting petty right now, as if benefitting the realm and benefiting himself are mutually exclusive. They are not. 

7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

Down to trying to get Tygett appointed master-at-arms and marry Cersei to Rhaegar. 

Do you not understand medieval culture? 

Pretty much every father would want their daughter to marry a Prince. 

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"
"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."
 
Trying to get a brother a good position is not narcism. In the real world the vast majority of people will have tried to do something similar for family or friends. 
 
 
 
7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

10. His organization of the Red Wedding, forcing Sansa and Tyrion to marry, consistently arbitrarily marrying into places or allotting lands for his family's gain, and refusing to accept various realities such as Tyrion's worth or Cersei's affair. 

Yawn

You genuinely seem to lack understanding on almost everything you have posted. 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yawn

You genuinely seem to lack understanding on almost everything you have posted. 

I'm going to do my best to be polite here (as it seems you did not since you quoted three of the possible symptoms that I had already said may not apply or had little to no evidence of them. Also I didn't 'start off' with the first point. I copy and pasted these from a website.) and say that your entire point seems to be culture justifies everything mixed with Tywin fanboying that refuses you to allow some faults to be found in the Tywin Lannister mythos. (the creation of this mythos being one of the examples I would have brought up in response, but I'm not on this forum to just waste my time.) There is one of your points I will address simply since it's I was not as clear with how it it's an example as I could have been. 

But before I do that I pose to you a hypothetical. Say someone were to travel back in time to about the 1840's in the American South. They were smart enough to bring something of wealth and purchase a plantation and some slaves. One of these slaves this person proceeds to rape, and eventually beat and whip and abuse in such ways that Ramsay would enjoy. There are no legal protections for this slave. According to the laws of the state he resides in there are no moral objections either. Has this time traveler done something morally wrong? If you answer yes, please back over your list and see how many of Tywin's behaviors you justified by culture, which does not actually prove he is not a narcissistic-sociopath. (because of course neither his daughter or x2 grandson could be either if your argument is the case.) If your answer is no, I don't believe there is room for us to have a civil conversation on the issues of morality as displayed in a fictional world or otherwise. 

The one point I will address however:

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Trying to get a brother a good position is not narcissism. In the real world the vast majority of people will have tried to do something similar for family or friends. 

While you are correct trying to get a brother a good position is not narcissism. But there are narcissists who will get a relative a good position anyway. (ex. the POTUS) Fortunately, it is not the Hand of the King's job to support nepotism. It's his job to run the realm. Evidence of him having done so to the benefit of the realm actually being slim, him taking on the loans from Braavos does help him. The Crown becomes close to 3 million golden dragons in debt to him by the end of his life, meaning that he and his family will have sway over the ruling of the realm for the foreseeable future. His destruction of Castamere also does not benefit the realm. Economically KL (Tywin's priority not Lannisport) is competing against two locations that have incredibly high deflation, Braavos and their iron currency and the rest of Essos with their slaves. The only way that KL can compete with them is by offering high wages to force a brain drain in the Free Cities. Yet Tywin leaves a profitable silver mine flood for almost forty years simply to increase gold profits. 

As for Tygett, I'm sure that Gareth Long was the best master-at-arms Unwin Peake could find, and Mervyn Flowers and Amaury Peake never shamed the white cloak, Gedmund Peake made a great admiral, and all the other appointments that hand made were certainly for the benefit of the realm. But the five years of Aegon III's regency were much more peaceful than the five that came before.  My point is, if Tywin had got his way Dany and Viserys would have died on Dragonstone because their master-at-arms was a Lannister. That a man whose first reaction to his son being accused of a crime and taken for trial was to release a serial killer and murderer on a fairly innocent neighbor, and plot to kidnap the Hand of the King. Those are not the actions of a man who is putting the realm first. Tywin's time as Hand is Unwin Peake come again, right down to stealing a Valyrian steel sword from another house. The only reason he had twenty years of peace is because Barristan Selmy killed Maelys the Monstrous on the Stepstones. And yet, Robert Baratheon gave the realm thirteen ten years of peace after the Greyjoy Rebellion, and if it weren't for Tywin being oblivious to his children f*cking Robert could have lived to give the realm another ten more. Peace is easy when you have no enemies and no one is unleashing raping bands of serial killers across the realm. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

So there were certainly other hands. If it's not one of the candidates Lord Varys breaks down, I could see maybe Munkun as a possibility.

Munkun is very unlikely as Hand. This guy likely got kicked out of the Small Council after Aegon III took the government into his own hands. Keep in mind that he played a crucial role both in the Peake Ascendancy as well as the secret siege. He signed off on all of that. And we do know from TWoIaF that he apparently was not Grand Maester at the birth of Daeron II in 153 AC but was Grand Maester again when Baelor the Blessed died, indicating that he may have only been restored to the Small Council and the position of Grand Maester after Aegon III had died.

Quote

Otherwise, it's going to be some characters we haven't seen yet. I don't really see the Lads or Alyn Oakenfist. Bloody Ben is too young.

He is certainly too young in 136 AC, but not necessarily in 146 AC. If Viserys II only takes over in around 150 AC it is possible. Although I don't think he is a very likely candidate.

Quote

And he and Kermit Tully have too much personality.

Kermit Tully was nineteen in 131 AC, meaning he would have been in his mid-twenties when the Regency ended. He would be young but old and experienced - and loyal - enough to become Hand in 136 AC.

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Alyn is a dear friend, but I think he'll be needed as Master of ships, since I don't see them keeping Gedmund Peake around and it is a post we know Alyn has when Daeron the Young Dragon takes over.

Oh, offices can and have been combined. Alyn could be both Hand and Master of Ships. I expect Peake is going to be fired when Aegon III takes power. Since Alyn isn't at court right now he would likely be replaced by some other guy, possibly a relation of Queen Daenaera - a Harte, say, or her uncle, Daemion Velaryon. They would be utter fools to allow a man who basically has no understanding of naval affairs and close connections to Lord Unwin to remain in that important office.

It might certainly also be that Alyn only ends up as Hand and Master of Ships after his voyages are all over and he finally has a real interest in involving himself in affairs of state. When Viserys is named Hand I certainly could see Alyn 'retiring' as Master of Ships, or finally taking that office only at that time.

15 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

One other possibility is Lyonel Hightower. Aegon III doesn't have many friends when Fire & Blood ends. He's basically got his brother Viserys and Alyn Velaryon. I'm guessing if it is not Alyn himself, then at least Alyn's got a hand in picking the Hand. And we saw that Alyn got pretty friendly with Lord Lyonel when he visited Oldtown on his way to take on the Red Kraken, so it's a pretty logical choice.

Lyonel is not very likely due to his youth. He would only be about twenty in 136 AC. However, later on he may be a possibility. Although I think his brother Garmund would be more likely considering that chances are higher that he ends up actually befriending Aegon III and Viserys if he and Rhaena lived at court. But then would then only happen in the later 140s, I'd assume. Garmund does not seem to be very old during the Regency, meaning that his marriage to Rhaena is likely some sort of convoluted affair that's going to happen not before 140 AC, perhaps only later. A Hightower is not a likely candidate in a marriage arranged by Aegon III, indicating that this might turn out a love match - or at least some kind of convoluted political issue that did not come naturally to the mind of the king.

I think we all expected that both Rhaena-Corwyn and Rhaena-Garmund were arranged during the Regency era, but it turned out that this is not the case for the latter.

In any case, though, we should keep in mind that Aegon III is only going to name Hands he knows and thinks he can rely on, if not trust. He is not going to choose a guy some courtiers or advisers are going to suggest, people he has not heard of up to this point, or scarcely even met.

Which means especially his first Hand will be a man chosen by him, and him alone, with only Viserys' advice taken into account. Later Hands might be appointed with the king taking into account the input of men he has grown to rely on and trust, but at this point the only man Aegon III trusts and likes aside from Viserys is Alyn Velaryon. The man gave him his brother back, and gave him his second wife. Alyn should be the man he wants as Hand now - and it might be that he actually will be his first Hand if he leaves the office vacant, using Viserys as a stand-in, until Alyn comes back. If not then only Kermit Tully and Cregan Stark seem to be men with the necessary standing and a close enough connection to the king to have a chance to be even remotely considered.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Interesting point about Aegon III's possible feelings towards House Hightower. However, I don't think Aegon would necessarily hold a grudge with all Hightowers because of Otto and Alicent. After all, Aegon didn't seem to hold it against Jaehaera who is more closely associated with them than the children of Ormund are.

Also, the fact that Garmund and Rhaena get married I think actually hints that Lyonel will be Hand at some point (if not necessarily the first one). I figure King's Landing is the most likely meeting place for Rhaena and Garmund. And the most likely reason for Garmund to be in King's Landing is that he accompanied his older brother there while Lyonel is filling some post at court - if not Hand it could be a different position on the small council.

Kermit Tully does seem like a likely enough candidate, but the problem with him is that while Aegon would have had some interaction with him, when the Lads were at King's Landing at the beginning of his reign, there's no indication that either Viserys or Alyn have ever met Kermit so would not necessarily have reason to recommend him. And of course, we have no idea whether Aegon himself like Kermit Tully.

We do see however, that Aegon actually picked Thad Rowan as his Hand (before being over-ruled) and seemed to have respected Tyland Lannister before him. So going off those two examples, it seems like Aegon's preference is for an older less charismatic type than Kermit Tully or Alyn Velaryon.

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4 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Interesting point about Aegon III's possible feelings towards House Hightower. However, I don't think Aegon would necessarily hold a grudge with all Hightowers because of Otto and Alicent. After all, Aegon didn't seem to hold it against Jaehaera who is more closely associated with them than the children of Ormund are.

Aegon III and Jaehaera weren't married in any real sense of the word. Jaehaera was pretty broken, too, of course, unwilling or incapable to leave her own apartments, but Aegon III had no relationship to her at all. He could have visited her, he could have spent time with her, but he did not.

The idea that Aegon III liked the idea of marrying the heir of his uncle, the daughter of the man who murdered his mother, is as likely as the idea that Sansa would have liked to marry Tyrion - or any Lannister, for that matter - after the Red Wedding.

They certainly could have gotten to a point to tolerate each other's presence, but they would have never had a proper marriage or relationship.

Aegon III also doesn't have to hold a grudge against the Hightowers to not name one of them Hand - or to not marry his half-sister to one of them. Any Hightower is a very unlikely candidate for the Handship, just as Garmund Hightower is a very unlikely candidate to marry Lady Rhaena. Which is the reason why I don't think the Rhaena-Garmund thing is an arranged marriage - or if it is then there must be a really good reason for that, a reason that has nothing to do with overcoming the aftermath of the Dance, etc. Because if that had been the issue then the regents should have made such a match, not Aegon III.

4 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Also, the fact that Garmund and Rhaena get married I think actually hints that Lyonel will be Hand at some point (if not necessarily the first one). I figure King's Landing is the most likely meeting place for Rhaena and Garmund. And the most likely reason for Garmund to be in King's Landing is that he accompanied his older brother there while Lyonel is filling some post at court - if not Hand it could be a different position on the small council.

Oh, well, Garmund is right now a page at Highgarden, and a dragonrider can certainly visit Highgarden at some point, not to mention that Garmund could accompany a Tyrell embassy to KL, meeting Rhaena there. Right now Rhaena resides on Dragonstone, anyway, anyone living at court wouldn't interact with her much.

Come to think of it - a Tyrell could also become Hand considering that their neutrality would make them very good candidates if the point of the appointment to favor neither Blacks nor Greens. The only issue with that is that Lord Tyrell is a young boy, but there must be uncles and cousins, of course.

Another problem is that Aegon III doesn't know any Tyrell, and is not likely to listen to some people suggesting one if his point is to have a Hand of his own choosing.

4 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Kermit Tully does seem like a likely enough candidate, but the problem with him is that while Aegon would have had some interaction with him, when the Lads were at King's Landing at the beginning of his reign, there's no indication that either Viserys or Alyn have ever met Kermit so would not necessarily have reason to recommend him. And of course, we have no idea whether Aegon himself like Kermit Tully.

If Kermit Tully was chosen then he would be Aegon III's own choice, of course. The only man Aegon III really interact with during the Regency that would be a good candidate is Lord Cregan, of course, but chances are not that great that he would come done. But I certainly could see his list going like Alyn (not working because he is absent and/or taking his time with his second voyage), Cregan (refusing the office), and then Kermit, who accepts.

4 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

We do see however, that Aegon actually picked Thad Rowan as his Hand (before being over-ruled) and seemed to have respected Tyland Lannister before him. So going off those two examples, it seems like Aegon's preference is for an older less charismatic type than Kermit Tully or Alyn Velaryon.

Kermit Tully is never described as particularly charismatic. Rowan was a Black loyalist (which Aegon III knew), and he was suggested as a husband for Lady Baela (which was significant because it meant the lords - especially Ser Tyland - choosing him believed he would not try usurp the throne as consort to a Targaryen princess). Both make him a pretty good Hand if you want to consolidate your own power.

Aegon III certainly grew to respect Ser Tyland, but I doubt he ever trusted him. We know he truly only trusted Viserys, and the relationship between Tyland-Aegon has to read with the later relationship between Unwin-Aegon in mind. Aegon and Tyland had a working relationship, with the Hand knowing and accepting what his job was, especially in relation to the minor king. Peake didn't understand that. But Aegon III getting along with Tyland doesn't mean he would have kept him once his minority was over.

If Aegon III wanted to have an older experienced man as Hand he could have just kept Torrhen Manderly. If he dismisses a man who was both loyal to him and his mother during the war simply because he did not choose him then this tells us something about his preferences...

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Posted (edited)

I’m thinking that Cregan Stark becomes the Hand. Otherwise, how did Aemon the Dragonknight really get the chance to cross swords with him? It would make more sense that Aemon sings Cregan’s praises so much if he was a younger man still learning the ropes when he and Cregan sparred. Granted, Cregan would have to wait a while for Aemon to be old enough to spar with, but I think it’s still likely that the Wolf becomes Hand once again.

Edited by James Steller

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2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I’m thinking that Cregan Stark becomes the Hand. Otherwise, how did Aemon the Dragonknight really get the chance to cross swords with him? It would make more sense that Aemon sings Cregan’s praises so much if he was a younger man still learning the ropes when he and Cregan sparred. Granted, Cregan would have to wait a while for Aemon to be old enough to spar with, but I think it’s still likely that the Wolf becomes Hand once again.

Chances are highly likely, in my opinion, that young Aemon is fostered for a time at Winterfell, causing him to spar with Lord Cregan.

But honestly, I'm pretty sure this 'praise' for Cregan is going to be of the same type as 'the Brave' in Baelon, if you get my meaning. The Starks will later play up the story, but it is likely going to be 12-year-old sparring with a much older man, or something along those lines.

Because, in the end, Aemon and Cregan will never get into a situation where they will actually have to fight a serious duel.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are highly likely, in my opinion, that young Aemon is fostered for a time at Winterfell, causing him to spar with Lord Cregan.

But honestly, I'm pretty sure this 'praise' for Cregan is going to be of the same type as 'the Brave' in Baelon, if you get my meaning. The Starks will later play up the story, but it is likely going to be 12-year-old sparring with a much older man, or something along those lines.

Because, in the end, Aemon and Cregan will never get into a situation where they will actually have to fight a serious duel.

Why do you think Aemon would be fostered at Winterfell? That seems very odd to me. Whatever bond that Cregan and Aegon have, Viserys will certainly have no reason to send his son so far from home. And that’s before even mentioning Lara, who will presumably want her children close by, especially in the wake of her family’s destruction. It makes more sense if Cregan comes south rather than Aemon going north.

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Why do you think Aemon would be fostered at Winterfell? That seems very odd to me. Whatever bond that Cregan and Aegon have, Viserys will certainly have no reason to send his son so far from home. And that’s before even mentioning Lara, who will presumably want her children close by, especially in the wake of her family’s destruction. It makes more sense if Cregan comes south rather than Aemon going north.

Oh, you don't foster your children at a very early age, do you? Aemon was born in 136 AC, and Daeron I in 143 AC, followed by Baelor in the next year, when Aemon was 7-8. Aemon was third in line to the throne at his birth, and was pushed to fourth and fifth by the birth of his two cousins. He was just a younger son of a cadet branch, after all. Those are the kind of people you foster elsewhere in this world. While Aegon III didn't have any heirs of his own body it makes sense for Viserys' sons to remain at court, but once Daeron and Baelor are born they are both nothing but spares. In that sense, chances are not that bad that a 7-9-year-old Aemon was shipped off to Winterfell.

And Viserys' opinion wouldn't matter all that much. Daeron II also decreed that Aemon would become a maester, not caring about the opinion of Maekar. Sending Aemon to Winterfell to serve there for a few years as a page and a squire shouldn't be an issue, and might actually be part of the rewards Lord Cregan got for his support of Rhaenyra and Aegon III during the Dance.

Larra abandoned Viserys and her children in 139 AC, and died in 145 AC. She seems to have had no impact on the upbringing of her children. But even if she had, the time for Aemon to squire with Cregan would be only after his mother was dead. He would only be nine years old in 145 AC, after all.

But, sure, Cregan is also a good chance to be one of Aegon III's Hands, as I pointed out somewhere above. But I don't expect him to last long in that office, both because of Aegon III's as well as his own personality. If he were to serve as Hand in the early 140s, say, he and his son Rickon (who may accompany Cregan in such a scenario) could befriend young Aemon causing him to accompany them to Winterfell for a time.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, you don't foster your children at a very early age, do you? Aemon was born in 136 AC, and Daeron I in 143 AC, followed by Baelor in the next year, when Aemon was 7-8. Aemon was third in line to the throne at his birth, and was pushed to fourth and fifth by the birth of his two cousins. He was just a younger son of a cadet branch, after all. Those are the kind of people you foster elsewhere in this world. While Aegon III didn't have any heirs of his own body it makes sense for Viserys' sons to remain at court, but once Daeron and Baelor are born they are both nothing but spares. In that sense, chances are not that bad that a 7-9-year-old Aemon was shipped off to Winterfell.

And Viserys' opinion wouldn't matter all that much. Daeron II also decreed that Aemon would become a maester, not caring about the opinion of Maekar. Sending Aemon to Winterfell to serve there for a few years as a page and a squire shouldn't be an issue, and might actually be part of the rewards Lord Cregan got for his support of Rhaenyra and Aegon III during the Dance.

Larra abandoned Viserys and her children in 139 AC, and died in 145 AC. She seems to have had no impact on the upbringing of her children. But even if she had, the time for Aemon to squire with Cregan would be only after his mother was dead. He would only be nine years old in 145 AC, after all.

But, sure, Cregan is also a good chance to be one of Aegon III's Hands, as I pointed out somewhere above. But I don't expect him to last long in that office, both because of Aegon III's as well as his own personality. If he were to serve as Hand in the early 140s, say, he and his son Rickon (who may accompany Cregan in such a scenario) could befriend young Aemon causing him to accompany them to Winterfell for a time.

Fair points well made. Although yes, your sarcasm aside, I was fully aware that fostering young children off to other houses is a commonplace thing in Westeros. I just thought it would be odd for a Targaryen princeling to spend his fostering up in the pagan North where his life would be very much at risk from the elements alone. But as I said, and genuinely meant, you made fair points in favour of that.

Edited by James Steller

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6 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Fair points well made. Although yes, your sarcasm aside, I was fully aware that fostering young children off to other houses is a commonplace thing in Westeros. I just thought it would be odd for a Targaryen princeling to spend his fostering up in the pagan North where his life would be very much at risk from the elements alone. But as I said, and genuinely meant, you made fair points in favour of that.

Just to be clear: that wasn't sarcasm. And you have a point with the fostering idea - no Targaryen prince in a FaB was fostered with a greater or smaller lord, nor a princely uncle or cousin, so it certainly would be unusual if Aemon was fostered at Winterfell - or any other non-Targaryen castle for that matter.

But I think the context actually allows us to speculate along those lines in light of the connection between Aegon III and Cregan and later, too, between Daeron I and Rickon - if only as a reasonably good explanation for this thing between Cregan and Aemon. I mean, if we were to assume this was a *real duel* between adults then Cregan would have been vast approaching fifty when Aemon was only around twenty. Not to mention that nobody ever said that Cregan was a great fighter. This kind of thing needs a pretty good explanation, just as the romance between Alyn Velaryon and Princess Elaena now needs a pretty good setting and context to make it work.

I'm certainly also open to the idea that Cregan came to court to serve as Hand but since he resigned back when power was truly in his grasp I'd be very surprised if he ever returned to KL to serve as the King's Hand or on his council. 

It might also turn out, though, that Rickon Stark is serves as page and squire at court, for a time. He may not get along all that well with Black Aly - or if he does then she, as a southern lady with her own connections to court, may persuade Lord Cregan allow his heir to befriend the Targaryens they are all serving. The Starks seem to be unusually involved and interested in the affairs of the larger Realm during the Dance and then the Conquest of Dorne. No Stark bothered to fight with the Conqueror or Maegor or Aegon the Uncrowned, or even Jaheaerys I - but they fought in the Dance and at least one of them fought for the Young Dragon. By the time of the Blackfyre Rebellions they may have returned to the old modus operandi of ignoring this kind of thing. But Cregan's time seems to have been more of a 'special era', which only returned later with Rickard's supposed ambitions and Ned's friendship with Robert.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are highly likely, in my opinion, that young Aemon is fostered for a time at Winterfell, causing him to spar with Lord Cregan.

Possibly. Could this be one of the many rewards reaped by Cregan Stark as mentioned in TWOIAF?

Quote

We have earlier discussed House Stark’s role in the Dance of the Dragons. Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III … even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon.

Anyway, it does seem likely that their fight took place at Winterfell. The way Cregan's reign as Hand for a day was described had a certain finality to it. I don't think he's coming back to King's Landing. Considering we know that Aemon and Naerys were very close growing up, I don't think he's being fostered in Winterfell tho. It seems more likely that the two crossed swords at some tourney in the Riverlands. Considering Cregan Stark now has a Blackwood for a wife, they may travel south once or twice to visit nephew Ben.

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