Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

[JNR]

On 4/9/2019 at 9:58 PM, Brad Stark said:

Popsicles didn't come for sheep.   Someone, who is alive and human, ate Craster's sheep and is using his sons to bring back the Others.

Whom do you propose as the sheep-eating Otherbringer?

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, JNR said:

Seriously, Feather.  He dumped his infant sons in the woods for decades. 

Let's not call that anything but kinslaying, no matter what deluded concept was in his head about the Popsicles being gods.   If you stab your mother in the heart because you're on narcotic drugs and are convinced she is a Klingon, you're still killing your kin.

Here's a philosophical question. Who gets to decide what is moral or immoral?

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Seriously, Feather.  He dumped his infant sons in the woods for decades. 

Let's not call that anything but kinslaying, no matter what deluded concept was in his head about the Popsicles being gods.   If you stab your mother in the heart because you're on narcotic drugs and are convinced she is a Klingon, you're still killing your kin.

The original premise was that there would be a contradiction in Craster offering up his sons and still viewing himself as godly in an old god context. Regardless of whether or not he's objectively a kinslayer, Craster will not subjectively perceive any contradiction if he does not view his actions as kinslaying. He believes he's making a holy offering, and the wives believe that the sons have never died or been slain in the first place.

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Seriously, Feather.  He dumped his infant sons in the woods for decades. 

Let's not call that anything but kinslaying, no matter what deluded concept was in his head about the Popsicles being gods.   If you stab your mother in the heart because you're on narcotic drugs and are convinced she is a Klingon, you're still killing your kin.

And if you leave your sons in the woods where they are kidnapped and transformed, but very much alive, you aren't killing your kin.

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Whom do you propose as the sheep-eating Otherbringer?

Benjen 

[SirArthur]

So ... a stupid question. If the cold other things are made out of humans, as the show claims and the books hint at..

...do the Others inherit human thought structure, e.g. the need to have faith or worship a god. And if yes, who do they worship ? The need for possession of things. In short: is there an Other society or is it a human society ?

[Brad Stark]

You mean can the Others have a culture?

Quote

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.
…

“(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,” he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.”

 

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So ... a stupid question. If the cold other things are made out of humans, as the show claims and the books hint at..

...do the Others inherit human thought structure, e.g. the need to have faith or worship a god. And if yes, who do they worship ? The need for possession of things. In short: is there an Other society or is it a human society ?

3

Hi Everyone, nice to see you all are still going strong and welcome to the new faces.....This question piqued my interest because it ties into something I had theorized as happening.

I don't believe the "white walkers" are made out of humans, but they are the shadows of a greenseer cast upon snow and ice. What we are seeing is this world's version of voodoo dolls( See the how they dispatched in unison their first kill in GOT, because it is one entity moving them)but with the elements.

Case in point, if we look at Theon's experience with the Heart tree in WF when he saw Bran's face, I don't think Theon was hallucinating. Bran manipulated the features of the tree to match his likeness. In precept, it is no different to Melissandre casting a likeness of Stannis as a shadow to kill Renly.

This is the dangers of skinchangers and even greater dangers of greenseers who can inhabit and manipulate the natural world around them.

[wolfmaid7]

On 4/10/2019 at 7:12 AM, Black Crow said:

This harks back to Matthew's point in #73 and also to something we've talked about in the distant past; namely who knows what?

Craster, believes that he has to keep right by the Gods, which is why he sacrifices something of value: his own sons. We're also told by Gilly that if there are no boys he offers sheep, noting that he's fond of mutton and so implying that he's still offering something of value to him.

At no point is it suggested that he might offer up a girl child, but why? Surely they must be of more value than sheep?

But so far as Craster goes as a source, that's all we do know - in fact he himself doesn't actually say how he keeps right with the Gods.

The Watch, or at least some of them, know that he gives the boys "to the wood", but if any of them know more than that they aren't saying.

Its the women who are more interesting. Gilly describes how the boys are taken by "the Cold Gods, the ones who come in the night" and while JNR disputes that "she has seen them", its actually a pretty odd comment if she hasn't. The Ranger belief that he gives the boys "to the wood" could be covered by their being taken by the Three-fingered Tree-huggers who are certainly known of by the Free-folk, or he could make a proper sacrifice, with bells and whistles, like that business at Whitetree [which could easily see the substitution of a sheep or lamb]. Yet we're very specifically told that they are given to the White Walkers.

Its also the women who refer to Craster's sons returning and the fact that they are referred to as the the boys' brothers suggests it isn't a metaphor.

And finally going back to Gilly and those wretched sheep. Craster isn't offering his sons to the Gods in the normal run of sacrifice. He neither waits for a short time and then tools off into the woods, nor offers them up at the full moon or whatever part of the calendar is deemed propitious, but gives on demand - when the white cold comes, and its been coming more often which is why he doesn't always have a boy available when the cold gods come knocking.

Now, that's where we come to Matthew's point. Do the women know more about what's going on than he does? And is Craster really in charge or is he cursed to preside over a shit heap in the middle of no-where?

I tend to agree with JNR on this as you know Papa Crow. It is Jon who "deduces" Gilly has seen "them" and the issue is that at this point Jon has only seen a Wight for it was this HE had in mind when Gilly gave her description. His mind went straight back to Othor and Jafar. So Gilly and the others could have been seeing wights.A point main clear when she and Sam had the encounter with Small Paul, she said he came for the babe.

I will restate this point that "Others" is being generalized by those in story with the main assumption that the WWs are behind the wights which again I lay squarely on the lap of a Greenseer who is using the WWs to hide the fact that the Greenseers are operating again from behind the scenes.

Interestingly, what I happening is is being very clever at mixing the supernatural with the worse angels of humanity. When it comes to the Craster situation what he is doing is what he was groomed to do by the women at the Keep in his generation and prior. He was the boy that got away to continue the tradition of exposing the boys to the cold and if the story of his paternity is true then I could see his mother out of spite doing something like this out of spite and as time went by it became a ritual.

The women are the ones who are truly in charge at Craster's Keep...a male patsy keeps them safe and they make him think he's in control. They'll find another one soon enough and start the same thing all over again.

[Black Crow]

On 4/11/2019 at 3:03 PM, JNR said:

Whom do you propose as the sheep-eating Otherbringer?

That remains to be seen, but the point about the sheep as I said above is that Craster isn't just taking the boys off out into the woods and leaving them there at the earliest opportunity, but is giving them up in response to a demand by a third party and its only because he can't keep up with those demands that he sometimes has to offer sheep, and ultimately the dogs on account of starting to run out of the sheep - which means that the boys in the night are coming pretty frequently.

As to who is actually taking them, we have clear testimony in text from the women. You choose not to believe the text but no other alternative or evidence is offered in the text  

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The women are the ones who are truly in charge at Craster's Keep...a male patsy keeps them safe and they make him think he's in control. They'll find another one soon enough and start the same thing all over again.

That's the discussion I was alluding to above and am still inclined to agree with - whatever's in Craster's bloodline is important so his last son needs to be preserved and that's why his brothers can't have him

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's the discussion I was alluding to above and am still inclined to agree with - whatever's in Craster's bloodline is important so his last son needs to be preserved and that's why his brothers can't have him

 

I agree re the importance of Craster's bloodline.There is definitely something off, but it think it lay with the woman than Craster's would be father in the Watch. Concerning the WWs being Monster's brother that I'm not buying. I think that be the " Tales from the Keep." What is more comforting for a mom to think that the child she allowed to be exposed by the father is coming back as a "god," or that they are food.

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I agree re the importance of Craster's bloodline.There is definitely something off, but it think it lay with the woman than Craster's would be father in the Watch. Concerning the WWs being Monster's brother that I'm not buying. I think that be the " Tales from the Keep." What is more comforting for a mom to think that the child she allowed to be exposed by the father is coming back as a "god," or that they are food.

But that contradicts your previous post. It the women [as we agree] are in charge they don't need to blind themselves to what Craster is compelled to do.

[Brad Stark]

It is possible neither Craster nor his wives know what ultimately happens to his sons - someone (or something) comes in the night to collect them.  I am inclined to believe they really do become white walkers, but I don't have an explanation for how the wives would know this unless they are transformed similar to the mummer's version, and this is done at Craster's keep at the time of collection.

Perhaps a lone white walker showed up the first time for the first son, then two showed up to collect the second and so on - and Craster and wives figured out they were being transformed.

The interesting question is how this all started.  Do we know anything of Craster's history?  Did he grow up in Whitetree?  Who was his first wife?  Who first took his first son?

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The interesting question is how this all started.  Do we know anything of Craster's history?  Did he grow up in Whitetree?  Who was his first wife?  Who first took his first son?

The short answer of course is that we don't know, but I'm firmly of the belief that it is the curse referred to and that it may well relate to Whitetree

[JNR]

On 4/11/2019 at 10:27 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Here's a philosophical question. Who gets to decide what is moral or immoral? 

Well, you have to answer that in context of the discussion.

Now, what we're discussing here is what Ygritte meant when she said Craster bears a heavy curse.  So we need to look at her outlook, if it's ever given.

Fortunately, it is.  According to Ygritte, the old gods get to decide what is moral or immoral:

Quote

the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing

The boldfaced tells me that in Ygritte's mind, it doesn't matter if you realize you're committing kinslaying or not.  The old gods will still judge you.

So from her standpoint, Craster would still bear a heavy curse, no matter what kooky religious notions  were there in his brain.

[JNR]

On 4/11/2019 at 2:19 PM, Brad Stark said:

And if you leave your sons in the woods where they are kidnapped and transformed, but very much alive, you aren't killing your kin.

The premise that the sons have been "kidnapped and transformed" only exists canonically in the mind of Craster's wife on the left.

But if Craster had a sweet clue what he was talking about on this subject, it seems very doubtful he would be leaving sheep in the woods. 

We can also take the fact that all the other free folk split, and went with Mance, to represent their complete lack of faith that he has any idea what he's doing in keeping himself or anybody else safe.  They know his bullshit for what it is.

We must also wonder how and when he managed to learn the Popsicle Language, since we only ever heard him using Common, and under what circumstances he managed to arrange a parley with Popsicles and negotiate the deal.  (Maybe he read The Art of the Deal?)

[JNR]

On 4/12/2019 at 11:59 AM, Black Crow said:

Craster isn't just taking the boys off out into the woods and leaving them there at the earliest opportunity, but is giving them up in response to a demand by a third party

How do you know?

On 4/12/2019 at 11:59 AM, Black Crow said:

As to who is actually taking them, we have clear testimony in text from the women. You choose not to believe the text but no other alternative or evidence is offered in the text  

People in these books, as in the real world, constantly assert things as true, or real, that they do not actually know. 

This is never more common than in religious areas. 

All the people who ever lived, and for thousands of years constantly asserted "facts" or "truths" about Apollo and Thor and Amun-Ra, were almost certainly all completely wrong.  They were just echoing the standard bullshit they'd been taught.  And if Craster's wives are doing the same about "the cold gods," I can't say I'd be even faintly surprised.

When Moqorro says this, concerning his own kooky religion, do you believe him?

Quote

"Your Drowned God is a demon," the black priest Moqorro said afterward. "He is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken."

If you don't, I won't say "you choose not to believe the text." 

I'll say you choose not to believe Moqorro, and that I agree with you.

[Mullocose]

On 4/11/2019 at 10:03 AM, JNR said:

 Whom do you propose as the sheep-eating Otherbringer?

Val is involved... or at least the mysterious order that Val belongs to... Likely delivering the child sacrifices to the Weirwoods (probably the large tree in Whitewood) & eating the sheep...

Bran & Bloodraven's powers are likely derived from human sacrifices.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, you have to answer that in context of the discussion.

Now, what we're discussing here is what Ygritte meant when she said Craster bears a heavy curse.  So we need to look at her outlook, if it's ever given.

Fortunately, it is.  According to Ygritte, the old gods get to decide what is moral or immoral:

The boldfaced tells me that in Ygritte's mind, it doesn't matter if you realize you're committing kinslaying or not.  The old gods will still judge you.

So from her standpoint, Craster would still bear a heavy curse, no matter what kooky religious notions  were there in his brain.

If you’re going off of what Ygritte thinks and keeping her opinion within the context of the conversation, then it’s pretty clear that she was talking about Craster’s father and how he denied Craster as his son. She talks about this before and after saying Craster was cursed. That cursed comment is sandwiched inside the topic of the Watch leaving the Wall to have sex and then ‘flying’ back. She was afraid Jon would do the same thing. The kinslayer comment was during the Bastard O Winterfell story and wasn’t even brought up when she was talking about Craster. In fact, I think she was acknowledging that she knew he was sacrificing his sons and was explaining that he was doing it because he was cursed.