Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

[Matthew.]

44 minutes ago, JNR said:

Wouldn't be the least surprised.  I fully expect her to die in the last episode and this might be how.

Several times we've been reminded what Dany did to Lord Tarly and his son.  This could well be intended as setup -- the idea being that as Dany continues to morph into a brutal autocrat, she comes into conflict with Jon, Sansa, et al, so that in time some thoughtful soul puts her out of her misery (and ours).

If it's Mormont using Heartsbane, I'd be pleased, though Tarly's sword, as instrument of justice wielded by Dany's former senior adviser, would seem a bit on the nose.

Yes, I suspect the show might go that route. Her arc over the last few seasons appears to be a clumsy attempt to follow through on the "dragons plant no trees" and "remember your words" theme of Dany X, ADWD.

[Brad Stark]

Euron's eye is a clue to his greenseer abilities.   They were marked with red or green eyes.  Euron is flawed, so only 1 eye is red.

[Mullocose]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 Mace Cooteran has a theory that Jon will be forced into thrusting Longclaw into Daenerys heart in order to become Azor Ahai.

Hmmm... To my knowledge, Lady Stoneheart is the only active character in the ASoI&F Series who would set a sword ablaze if stabbed in the heart... I don't know if Dany would be able to do that...

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, I suspect the show might go that route. Her arc over the last few seasons appears to be a clumsy attempt to follow through on the "dragons plant no trees" and "remember your words" theme of Dany X, ADWD.

I had the sense listening to the Dany/Sansa exchange that we were supposed to consider it foreshadowing.

Dany reaches out to Sansa, literally putting her hand on Sansa's and telling her the Iron Throne has been the primary focus of her life. 

(We needn't get into what total bullshit that is, and how much better the canon would be if it were true, and how GRRM might have finished the series by now.)

Then Sansa brings up the North and says they determined that they were done with southron rulers.

Then Dany's smile dies like Ygritte.  And she pulls her hand away.

Then they're interrupted... but I really don't think that's the last we'll hear on that topic. 

I'll also just add that this is yet another continuity issue.  Everyone all through this episode is constantly yapping up how they're all going to die soon, and it really seems likely they will because they have zero command of common sense battle tactics when fighting wights and Popsicles... but somehow, Dany and Sansa are totally sure they're going to survive.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Mullocose said:

Hmmm... To my knowledge, Lady Stoneheart is the only active character in the ASoI&F Series who would set a sword ablaze if stabbed in the heart... I don't know if Dany would be able to do that...

Dragons are fire made flesh.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

You're right, I'd totally forgotten about Mors' eye. As to using obsidian as a false eye, I was just overthinking it, wondering whether or not taking the eye in and out or having it jostle around in your head would be an infection risk. 

Don't see why it should be an infection risk. Obsidian is just a naturally occurring form of glass.

Mind you, given the alleged properties of glass candles I wonder whether Mors and Euron can in fact see things through their "eyes"

 

[Janneyc1]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Mind you, given the alleged properties of glass candles I wonder whether Mors and Euron can in fact see things through their "eyes"

I can't really weigh in on Mors, but I've long thought that if Euron had an obsidian eye, he would be using it to spy on people. Most notably, I think he is using it on Victarion. 

[Black Crow]

On 4/23/2019 at 1:27 PM, Janneyc1 said:

I can't really weigh in on Mors, but I've long thought that if Euron had an obsidian eye, he would be using it to spy on people. Most notably, I think he is using it on Victarion. 

We don't, obviously, know exactly what the glass candles can do, but I'd suspect that Euron's eye isn't being used to literally spy on people and events, but is a means of communication by way of invading dreams

[LynnS]

On 4/21/2019 at 2:36 PM, Black Crow said:

I think that this may well be a strong possibility, especially if Lord Eddard had no previous experience of skinchanging

I have started re-reading GoT.  I had  forgotten how much I enjoyed the books.  This jumped out at me:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

"Often, and with some heat," Ned said, hoping that would end it. He had no patience with this game they played, this dueling with words.

"I should have thought that heat ill suits you Starks," Littlefinger said. "Here in the south, they say you are all made of ice, and melt when you ride below the Neck."

 

It sort of fits in the same category of popular colloquialisms as the others take your eyes.  The others do in fact take your eyes as we find out later.   I think it will turn out to be true that the Starks are made of ice at some point in the story.    I think your intuition about the white walkers is on point and perhaps GRRM has let that slip into Littlefinger's conversation with Ned.  

[BlackLightning]

I love these Heresy threads. The best thing about these forums.

 

I have a question though.

Do you guys foresee Melisandre coming face-to-face with the Great Other? And what was the meaning of that one dream in Bran IV from A Game of Thrones. The one where Bran is climbing, encounters several great stone beasts (!!!) who have figuratively taken flight and frantically repeats that he didn't hear.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I love these Heresy threads. The best thing about these forums.

I have a question though.

Do you guys foresee Melisandre coming face-to-face with the Great Other? And what was the meaning of that one dream in Bran IV from A Game of Thrones. The one where Bran is climbing, encounters several great stone beasts (!!!) who have figuratively taken flight and frantically repeats that he didn't hear.

I love the Heresy threads too! 

At this point, I'm not sure about the identity of the great other but I suspect Bran.  I think she has seen him in her fires when she asks R'hllor to show her the great other and she sees Bloodraven and Bran but only in disguise.  In other words, She sees a boy with the head of a wolf and a man like a tree.  Later she sees someone that she dismisses as the great other because he should be fierce and frightening.  I think she sees Hodor or rather Bran when he is skinchanging Hodor.  

I've also wondered about this dream of Bran's for some time.  On the surface, it seems to be about climbing the first keep and overhearing Jaime and Cersei but I think someone else is looking for Bran in the fires or with glass candles just as Melisandre is looking for the great other.  He seems to have broken into someone else's search in the same way that Bran and BR break into Mel's fire vision.  Bran concludes that he is not safe after all.  What follows is that Jojen shows up and Bran has to go beyond the Wall to BR's cave.  Where he tells Ghost-Jon that nobody can see him; but he can see them.        

[Janneyc1]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We don't, obviously, know exactly what the glass candles can do, but I'd suspect that Euron's eye isn't being used to literally spy on people and events, but is a means of communication by way of invading dreams

Should have clarified a bit, that's how I think he is spying on people. Invade their dreams, watch what they are dreaming about and that tells you what they subconsciously think about. It's a stretch but I could see it being an application. 

[Brad Stark]

11 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I love these Heresy threads. The best thing about these forums.

 

I have a question though.

Do you guys foresee Melisandre coming face-to-face with the Great Other? And what was the meaning of that one dream in Bran IV from A Game of Thrones. The one where Bran is climbing, encounters several great stone beasts (!!!) who have figuratively taken flight and frantically repeats that he didn't hear.

I don't buy into Melisandre's Great Other.   Imo he is just part of her religion like R'hllor and we won't see or hear more about him.

The stone beast, according to my tinfoil, is a real dragon,  much older and bigger than Dany's and will awaken in the Winterfell crypts if he hasn't yet.

But many others associate stone beasts with Winterfell's gargoyles and also the Lannisters appearing as gargoyles.   I don't have my copy handy, but this could be a reference to Bran being pushed. 

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

Do you guys foresee Melisandre coming face-to-face with the Great Other? 

 

I'd rather suspect that she already has, because the reason why the name must never be spoken is because it is R'hllor. 

As to Bran's dream, I'll need to go back and re-read it.

[Mullocose]

20 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Do you guys foresee Melisandre coming face-to-face with the Great Other?

I see Mel coming face-to-face with a with a pyre, the same way Miri Maz Dur did...

[Black Crow]

On 4/26/2019 at 5:32 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Do you guys foresee Melisandre coming face-to-face with the Great Other? And what was the meaning of that one dream in Bran IV from A Game of Thrones. The one where Bran is climbing, encounters several great stone beasts (!!!) who have figuratively taken flight and frantically repeats that he didn't hear.

Right... I've had a look. Briefly, Bran dreams that he's climbing an old tower although its far higher than any that he knows, and sees stone gargoyles up above him, which are whispering among themselves. At first he tells himself that he'll be safe so long as he doesn't hear what they're saying, but then they start moving down towards which is when he frantically insists that he didn't here. Before they catch up with him however GRRM ends the dream in his customary fashion by having him woken by someone, in this case Hodor.

On a straightforward level there's a strong element of recalling his fall. The gargoyles were once lions which is a clear reference to the Lanisters and he thinks he might be safe is he knows nothing and keeps silent. Dreams, to quote GRRM,  are not always literal.

Whether it goes further, whether there is a deeper meaning is an interesting question. The red eyes may be significant of course, but if there is a deeper significance I think it may be to Bran's role as a seer. He falls in the first place because he was watching, and later in Jon's dream, he tells him that he likes that dark because he can see [and presumably hear] without being seen - but it was nearly the death of him first time around and eventually seeing what he shouldn't may indeed kill him - dead.

 

[JNR]

On 4/22/2019 at 10:29 PM, JNR said:

they have zero command of common sense battle tactics when fighting wights and Popsicles

Wow, did this prove accurate.

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, JNR said:

Wow, did this prove accurate.

Apparently all you have to do is kill the head honcho and they all go down like dominoes.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Wow, did this prove accurate.

IMO, it really worked against both the episode and the season to go down this weird road where, anticlimactically, Cersei is both still around and still trying to fuck everyone over--on the topic of tactics, the Lannister faction being part of a united Westerosi front would have allowed Aerys' wildfire to come into play as a part of anti-wight planning. A united Westerosi front might have been the more cliche structure for a season, but it's what I would have preferred.
 

[Black Crow]

33 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

IMO, it really worked against both the episode and the season to go down this weird road where, anticlimactically, Cersei is both still around and still trying to fuck everyone over--on the topic of tactics, the Lannister faction being part of a united Westerosi front would have allowed Aerys' wildfire to come into play as a part of anti-wight planning. A united Westerosi front might have been the more cliche structure for a season, but it's what I would have preferred.
 

The original synopsis of course had Dany the Dragonlord using her Dothraki to conquer Westeros and then having to unite all the factions against the horror from the north. Bit cheesy of course, and then of course there were those perilous journeys into the Heart of Ice and the Heart of Fire...

I've questioned before that as written the Heart of Ice may have evolved into Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness, but we're still certainly talking about something more interesting than the mummers' version.