Matthew. Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 12 hours ago, Brad Stark said: I don't believe that either. But I think they are suspicious and not completely innocent. I keep going back to Pan's Labyrinth and the 'dirty fairies', even though that movie didn't give a full explanation either. If nothing else, their actions do not read as fulsome support or friendship with humanity. The return of the WWs happened on BR's watch as greenseer, with the corresponding growth of the wight horde, yet there is little indication that the CotF (limited as their numbers might be) worked hand in hand with any of the Free Folk to stem the tide, to nip the situation in the bud; it also doesn't seem to be the case that any humans have been given shelter in BR's cave. Finally, neither BR nor the CotF appear to have done anything to sound the alarm bells for the Watch, even though this situation was unfolding for years, and BR himself was a former LC. (side note, since you brought up Pan's Labrythinh--I theorize that the Green Men are not just an order of humans in ceremonial garb, but something more unnatural, something akin to the Faun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 BR feels Bran is important, and that is priority. They may not be doing anything else as they see other actions as futile. Coldhands doesn't do much to help the Watch but is more than happy to take out deserters. We also likely had someone send the wolves and someone leave a sack of obsidian and the horn. We also have the theory BR caused the Mad King's madness and the theory he apprenticed Euron. So maybe he is trying to help but not doing so well. That said, I absolutely believe in Jojen paste and suspect the Children destroyed Hardhome. BR wasn't exactly philanthropist of the year before he was sent to the Wall either. The Children see humans as a threat, a sacrifice and possibly a tool, not as friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, Brad Stark said: BR feels Bran is important, and that is priority. They may not be doing anything else as they see other actions as futile. Coldhands doesn't do much to help the Watch but is more than happy to take out deserters. We also likely had someone send the wolves and someone leave a sack of obsidian and the horn. We also have the theory BR caused the Mad King's madness and the theory he apprenticed Euron. So maybe he is trying to help but not doing so well. That said, I absolutely believe in Jojen paste and suspect the Children destroyed Hardhome. BR wasn't exactly philanthropist of the year before he was sent to the Wall either. The Children see humans as a threat, a sacrifice and possibly a tool, not as friends. Leaf wandered south of the wall unrecognized, she would have been perfect for bringing the "Mother Direwolf" into position and the obsidian and the horn later. Also, the White Walkers might be the missing wood dancers of the CotF, transformed. There are more than one fraction of humans, there might be more than one fraction of CotF as well. And the one opposing the pact is behind the White Walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 29 minutes ago, Brad Stark said: BR feels Bran is important, and that is priority. They may not be doing anything else as they see other actions as futile. Coldhands doesn't do much to help the Watch but is more than happy to take out deserters. We also likely had someone send the wolves and someone leave a sack of obsidian and the horn. Yes, their actions prioritize Bran (and possibly reawakening the Stark gift), but that raises the question as to whether or not those are actions that are being taken to combat the Others, within the broader context of all of the things that BR and the CotF have not done. If there's any single negligence that really stands out to me as odd, it's that what happened at the Fist should have been preventable--buried obsidian is a poor substitute for actually warning the Watch what's happening, if it was indeed someone like Coldhands that did the burying. From BR's weirnet perspective, it would seem that the inevitable result of the Great Ranging would be a substantial weakening of the Wall from the loss of so many veteran rangers, yet nothing was done to intercede. That said, I think a lot of that can be brushed aside with an interpretation in which BR/the CotF don't see the Wall and the NW as important for actually ending the Other threat. And, more cynically, I appreciate that the real answer to "why didn't <character> take <seemingly logical action>" style questions is often: because that would have been inconvenient to advancing the plot. ____ It may also be the case that the CotF are not trying to stop the Others (for now) because the CotF's ultimate goal is to fix the broken seasons, and it may be that the return of the Others was a necessary step for whatever ritual or magic needs to be worked to 'fix' Planetos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullocose Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 6 hours ago, alienarea said: There are more than one fraction of humans, there might be more than one fraction of CotF as well. And the one opposing the pact is behind the White Walkers. This is true, but at such a late stage in this story's telling, can GRRM afford another layer of complexity? Especially one that has not yet been introduced or even foreshadowed to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullocose Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 9 hours ago, Brad Stark said: I absolutely believe in Jojen paste Jojen is one of the only characters in the series that has the ability to see the future... & Jojen has seen his own death, as we learn in ACoK... The dialog between Meera & Jojen suggest to me that Jojen will die at the hand of a Direwolf - which is why he's fascinated with them & why Meera keep urging caution... Personally, I think that Jojen knows that he is safe with Summer & Shaggy Dog because Jojen knows that it is a WHITE Direwolf who will take his life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullocose Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 12 hours ago, Brad Stark said: Most electric things need copper wire to work, but stick extra copper wire in the wrong place and everything shorts out. I assumed magic worked the same. Interesting Analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 On 4/16/2019 at 10:01 PM, Mullocose said: What if Gilly's "Cold Gods" are just... People... Not with eyes blue as stars they aint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullocose Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: Not with eyes blue as stars they aint Val has blue eyes... & stars are really not that blue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 9 hours ago, Mullocose said: Jojen is one of the only characters in the series that has the ability to see the future... & Jojen has seen his own death, as we learn in ACoK... The dialog between Meera & Jojen suggest to me that Jojen will die at the hand of a Direwolf - which is why he's fascinated with them & why Meera keep urging caution... Personally, I think that Jojen knows that he is safe with Summer & Shaggy Dog because Jojen knows that it is a WHITE Direwolf who will take his life... Interesting take, but look how depressed Jojen gets in BR's caves, especially as time goes on. This doesn't mean he knows his death is near, but that is the most obvious take. If he is going to die soon, I don't see how Ghost could kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: Not with eyes blue as stars they aint GRRM's world clearly has magic and people who can use it. The glowing blue eyes are a sign of magic, but I don't see how that means it isn't a human using the magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Brad Stark said: GRRM's world clearly has magic and people who can use it. The glowing blue eyes are a sign of magic, but I don't see how that means it isn't a human using the magic. We haven't come across any instances of this. Val had blue eyes [or grey eyes that became blue] but no-one confused them with the blue eyes of death There may however be a connection in that as I recall Mel has red eyes but not burning bright, so its possible that Val's now blue eyes might indicate a connection [assuming GRRM hasn't just been careless again], but that's not the same as the blue as stars description Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 We haven't seen any human or non human beings with glowing blue eyes, except the wights which appear to be controlled. So we can probably assume they exist, we just haven't seen them yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullocose Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 10 hours ago, Brad Stark said: Interesting take, but look how depressed Jojen gets in BR's caves, especially as time goes on. This doesn't mean he knows his death is near, but that is the most obvious take. If he is going to die soon, I don't see how Ghost could kill him. That's my take on it too - that Jojen knows that he will die in those caves... -- GRRM did an interview where he said something like this: "I'm writing The Winds of Winter. Jon Snow is being pursued by enemies. He's hungry. What is he going to eat? What is the next sentence? What is the next word?" Note: I probably massacred that quote... -- Well, Jon Snow is not running from any enemies anytime soon in his original body... Therefore, I make the leap that he must be in Ghost... "What is he going to eat"... I'm assuming that it will be something profound... -- I couple this with Jojen / Meera's comments about Direwolves from ACoKs - "This is not the day I die"... & I came up with this: John /Ghost fall down the backdoor to the Bran-Cave (that is a sinkhole)... & he runs into Jojen wondering around the cave & eats him... The backdoor / sinkhole is a plot device that has been set up, but not yet used... I think this is how it will be used... -- Now if I can just figure out how the Ice Cells will be used to advance the plot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullocose Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 9 hours ago, Black Crow said: We haven't come across any instances of this. Val had blue eyes [or grey eyes that became blue] but no-one confused them with the blue eyes of death This is true... But, if they were once grey, now blue, then they might be electric blue & glowing half way through the next book... Or, she could choke on a ham sandwich & die half way through the next book... Who knows??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 On 4/17/2019 at 9:51 AM, LynnS said: It's such a tease. The major beats could be anything from the wall falls down to Jon returns to Winterfell. Yeah, I think the fact that the show's primary antagonist since season four has yet to show his face in the books -- unless you count ancient mythology, in which he is a human being -- clearly demonstrates just how wildly different the "major beats" have been for years now. If we choose to look the other way on that, pretending the Popsicles do have a clear leader who showed up several books ago, we can consider Aegon's story (his major beat on the show was apparently to die as an infant). Or Jon Connington's story (his major beat was to never exist on the show). Or Jorah's (one major beat on the show being the acquisition of greyscale, and another being his miraculous cure by Sam). Or Sansa's story (a major beat for whom, on the show, was to marry Ramsay and repeatedly be raped). Or Arya's story (I don't recall her being stabbed by anyone from the House of B&W, and then miraculously winning a duel in the dark). It's charitable of GRRM to pretend the show is somehow accurate on the major beats. I congratulate him on his kindly nature. But when TWOW is out the door, the time for charity will be over, and in its place there will be confetti thrown by those of us who always rolled our eyes at the kooky dogma to be found in another place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 4 hours ago, JNR said: It's charitable of GRRM to pretend the show is somehow accurate on the major beats. I congratulate him on his kindly nature. But when TWOW is out the door, the time for charity will be over, and in its place there will be confetti thrown by those of us who always rolled our eyes at the kooky dogma to be found in another place. Or,... good grief... Hodor. GRRM doesn't seem all that thrilled by the finale season. Neither do the showrunners for that matter. Kit Harrington said what about the ending? It's pretty clear that the show won't spoil the books; but it's not clear that watching the show wouldn't spoil my appetite for the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 20, 2019 Author Share Posted April 20, 2019 9 hours ago, JNR said: Yeah, I think the fact that the show's primary antagonist since season four has yet to show his face in the books -- unless you count ancient mythology, in which he is a human being -- clearly demonstrates just how wildly different the "major beats" have been for years now. I don't have the quotation to hand but GRRM did very firmly declare that there is no Nights King apart from that very distant [in time] figure of legend. My own take on this statement is that while they are certainly antagonists, the blue-eyed lot are not protagonists and that the Nights King seen in the Mummers' version is a theatrical invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 8 hours ago, LynnS said: GRRM doesn't seem all that thrilled by the finale season. Yeah. And yet he's also not quite willing to mock the guys who have buried him in money. It's understandable. Still, if he doesn't obliterate the show in the next book, I'll roast and eat a crow. 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: I don't have the quotation to hand but GRRM did very firmly declare that there is no Nights King apart from that very distant [in time] figure of legend. Probably thinking of this: Quote As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have. I also picture him rolling his eyes at the show's phrase "Night King" -- thinking "They didn't even get that right" -- and thus, taking the time to correct the title, and add the parenthetical phrase we see above. If you gave Benioff and Weiss a recipe for eggnog, they would serve you bacon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 On 4/20/2019 at 5:46 AM, Black Crow said: I don't have the quotation to hand but GRRM did very firmly declare that there is no Nights King apart from that very distant [in time] figure of legend. My own take on this statement is that while they are certainly antagonists, the blue-eyed lot are not protagonists and that the Nights King seen in the Mummers' version is a theatrical invention The Night's King has been a very confusing interpretation on the show. How could a former Lord Commander brought down for sacrificing to the Others and presumably executed, come back as the leader of all the white walkers and wights? Did the Night's King also become made of ice, or are all the white walkers on the show human corpses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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