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Black Crow

Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

But the important thing about Borroq and his boar is that they came through the Wall together. They are not separated by the Wall - their connection is not severed. 

Do we have any examples of the Warg bond working across the Wall?  We know a warged eagle burst into flames.   We have plenty of examples of wolves and Starks crossing and warging on the other side.   Could this mean the wights were controlled by someone on the South side of the Wall?

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44 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Do we have any examples of the Warg bond working across the Wall?  We know a warged eagle burst into flames.   We have plenty of examples of wolves and Starks crossing and warging on the other side.   Could this mean the wights were controlled by someone on the South side of the Wall?

If I remember correctly, the eagle flew high above the Wall, but never crossed over. And wasn't that the point of Jon and Ghost's separation? That the Wall broke their warg bond until they were close enough to each other to reconnect?

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I read this same article and watched a clip of the interview. I thought the timing of it might hold some significance. I think it might be a warning to us book fans that his ending will upset some in our online community, because they might like Dave and Dan's ending better. He says it only affects secondary characters. Would Rhaegar and Lyanna be considered secondary characters?

It's a subjective question, but to me the primary characters are Dany, the Starks, and the Lannisters, and the secondary characters are basically everyone else of relevance; so I'm reading his comment as saying that we're not going to get one version of the story where Dany is queen of Westeros and another version of the story where she's dead, but with people like Theon, Brienne, the Dornish characters, etc. all bets are off.

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

it might be a warning to us book fans that his ending will upset some in our online community, because they might like Dave and Dan's ending better.

Warning? That's more like... "music to my ears," if that's what he meant. 

The online community used to be a book club brought together by ASOIAF.  But since 2012 (at the latest), there's been nothing new to discuss apart from HBO and a bunch of fake history nonsense.  That's half a generation, in Westeros.  (ADWD can't marry yet, but it's certainly old enough for a betrothal.)

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2 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Warning? That's more like... "music to my ears," if that's what he meant. 

The online community used to be a book club brought together by ASOIAF.  But since 2012 (at the latest), there's been nothing new to discuss apart from HBO and a bunch of fake history nonsense.  That's half a generation, in Westeros.  (ADWD can't marry yet, but it's certainly old enough for a betrothal.)

A warning to one side is joyful news to the other!

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 Are these blue eyes akin to lunar panels activated by moon power, or is it evidence of a type of possession like a demon? Or is it a kind of infection like a virus, and the wights are zombies? The Wall is supposed to block magic, and yet Othor and Jafer were able to move about on the south side.

I would say, given what happened to Thistle - whose eyes were torn out - that its some kind of possession akin to the flame breathed into Beric by Thoros, but blue rather than red.

As to Othor and Jafer, if there is indeed a significance to their being able to act, there is of course a long standing belief in folklore that defences are nullified by inviting the demon, vampire or whatever, to enter

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If I remember correctly, the eagle flew high above the Wall, but never crossed over. And wasn't that the point of Jon and Ghost's separation? That the Wall broke their warg bond until they were close enough to each other to reconnect?

GRRM of course specifically drew attention to this "significant plot device" - and conversely Good Queen Bess's dragon couldn't cross the Wall in the other direction

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1 minute ago, Brad Stark said:

Coldhands could not be invited through 

Or declined to be

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5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I read this same article and watched a clip of the interview. I thought the timing of it might hold some significance. I think it might be a warning to us book fans that his ending will upset some in our online community, because they might like Dave and Dan's ending better. He says it only affects secondary characters. Would Rhaegar and Lyanna be considered secondary characters?

I wouldn't say that they are characters at all, but the world is as it is because of their actions

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10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I would say, given what happened to Thistle - whose eyes were torn out - that its some kind of possession akin to the flame breathed into Beric by Thoros, but blue rather than red.

As to Othor and Jafer, if there is indeed a significance to their being able to act, there is of course a long standing belief in folklore that defences are nullified by inviting the demon, vampire or whatever, to enter

If Othor and Jafer are proof that wights can be autonomous, then Small Paul could have found Sam and Gilly without there being a white walker nearby.

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Coldhands could not be invited through 

He might have been able to pass if they dragged him through, but he seems fairly dangerous and I wouldn't try to force him to do anything he didn't want to do. :laugh:

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If I remember correctly, the eagle flew high above the Wall, but never crossed over. And wasn't that the point of Jon and Ghost's separation? That the Wall broke their warg bond until they were close enough to each other to reconnect?

 

100% Correct. The Wall blocks wargs, not the blue-eyed lot.

A Song of Vaginal Warg-Blocking

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Coldhands told the group he could not pass, not that he had to be invited, not that he didn't want to.   Of course, he could be lying, but why?

We suspect the Others control the wights, but we don't even know that.  I suspect a human is behind the return of the Others, and if so, they might be able to control wights as well.  Someone at Castle Black who knew who to target took control of Othor and Jafer.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I read this same article and watched a clip of the interview. I thought the timing of it might hold some significance. I think it might be a warning to us book fans that his ending will upset some in our online community, because they might like Dave and Dan's ending better. He says it only affects secondary characters. Would Rhaegar and Lyanna be considered secondary characters?

We know how Rhaegar and Lyanna end up, except for the most crackpot ideas.  Lyanna died from childbirth and Rhaegar was killed by Robert in battle.  I doubt that changes in either version. 

Jon Snow is clearly not a secondary character.   So I think this means my hope for an unJon NightKing aren't looking so good.  Jon is a predictable boring nice guy hero,  regardless of who his parents were or why it is important.  Hopefully the show can at least find an interesting way to kill him.

Edited by Brad Stark

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13 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Lyanna died from childbirth

I would think 'Lyanna dying' would be considered a 'high note', but how she died might end up being very different in the books than in the show. One of my pet theories is that Lyanna died of her injuries from a violent rape, and that she never gave birth to any child.

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29 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We suspect the Others control the wights, but we don't even know that.  I suspect a human is behind the return of the Others, and if so, they might be able to control wights as well.  Someone at Castle Black who knew who to target took control of Othor and Jafer.

I wonder if those who die north of the Wall have to initially be raised from the dead by white walkers, but once raised they can be autonomous? At the same time they also can be controlled by white walkers. Maybe there is some residual spirit in the bones that the magic resurrects? The striking thing about their resurrection though is their universal propensity to hunt the living and kill it. This seems to be the biggest difference between them and whatever Coldhands, Beric, and Lady Stoneheart are.

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48 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I wonder if those who die north of the Wall have to initially be raised from the dead by white walkers, but once raised they can be autonomous? At the same time they also can be controlled by white walkers. Maybe there is some residual spirit in the bones that the magic resurrects? The striking thing about their resurrection though is their universal propensity to hunt the living and kill it. This seems to be the biggest difference between them and whatever Coldhands, Beric, and Lady Stoneheart are.

O&J seemed to have specific targets, rather than just indescrimately going after the living.  

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26 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

O&J seemed to have specific targets, rather than just indescrimately going after the living.  

I agree, it did seem they had a target in mind since they bypassed Jon's room and went straight for LC Mormont, so either they were moving of their own accord and their bones only remember grudges, or they were being controlled by somebody or something, which brings us back to suspecting their controller was also on the south side of the Wall.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/15/2019 at 5:14 PM, Black Crow said:

Because GRRM [the writer] is telling us so. If there was intended to be confusion it would be written that way. "The Cold Gods, the ones who come in the night" as described by Gilly are not wights but white walkers. The point of this exchange is telling us that Old Nan's stories are coming through - first the walking dead in the shape of Othor and Jafer and now their masters, the White Walkers - who we [the readers] have already met in the prologue. GRRM is weaving it all together.

What if Gilly's "Cold Gods" are just...

People... 

 

Edited by Mullocose

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2 hours ago, Voice said:

 

100% Correct. The Wall blocks wargs, not the blue-eyed lot.

A Song of Vaginal Warg-Blocking

So, if Jon Wargs into Ghost, & then his body is thrown in the Ice Cells & forgotten about... Then Jon would be trapped inside Ghost?

Is that how it would work?

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