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silverwolf22

the tyrell house will be destroyed ( many tyrells will die ) in the winds of winter and the martell family will be destroyed to signify the coming of long night

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the tyrells symbol is the rose and the roses and plants die in the winter while night is when the sun is gone from the sky and the martell family symbol is the sun so it would be fitting if the tyrells are destroyed in the winds of winter and the martells are destroyed to signify the coming of the long night

Edited by silverwolf22

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:o :drunk: :leer:  :pimp: :ohwell: :pirate: :stunned: <_<

Quote

roses and plants die

It's true.  Lately I've been smashing aphids between my fingers when they gather on a rose bud, hoping this damages the plant less than the spray we used last year which turned lots of the leaves rot yellow & black.   

As for the families, the flowers are indeed on the way out.   And Martels have shown a propensity to die while failing to demonstrate any skills in the non-death arena.  Alleras is like an early bird Arya who went into hiding before her family got eradicated, which just goes to show she's been reading ahead.

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17 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

I don't know man, there are quite alot of Tyrells. Maybe the main branch will die out, but I'm not sure on literally all of them dying. 

I know I was just saying the tyrells we know about  like mace , olenna, margery etc will die 

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12 minutes ago, silverwolf22 said:

I know I was just saying the tyrells we know about  like mace , olenna, margery etc will die 

Maybe. I feel like Willas might have a chance of surviving, it depends on what Euron's plan is once he takes/destroys Oltown. 

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Honestly this was the worst then, ever, about the show and the clear example of its downfall. (also something I pray doesn't happen to WoT) One of the reasons why we like ASOIAF is that its a full world, not an empty one, where events have consequences and the world is not empty and barren. Killing off characters isn't a good way to write or tell a story, and while we like to joke that George kills off so many characters, he really doesn't. The POVs that have no point are removed (Ned isn't needed to show KL because Tyrion is coming and Sansa is there; Catelyn isn't needed to show the Riverlands or the war events, no comment on the third kill.) but overall not that many named, main characters have died. This is because GRRM is actually a good writer and knows that a barren wasteland doesn't tell a story and isn't how you end one either. 

In the show, the Reach has no overlord or characters really affiliated with it, Dorne they just wanted to wipe the slate clean. I doubt we'll ever actually find out what happened to Edmure Tully,and several secondary characters just disappear or die off screen. We're a fandom that is going to be debating and discussing Aerea Targaryen for years to come, as well as what Asshai by the Shadow was like, what exactly Ulthos is and whether Jeyne Farman ever made it around the world. Even the little easter eggs (Carcosa for example) can lead to references in other fiction that will have us connecting stories to Planetos for the next century. 

There is no logical or story telling reason to kill name so many characters with so varied of backstories and locations only to kill them all off. And even if (hypothetically) Euron succeeds at taking Oldtown and somehow from there piggy backing into Highgarden or Dany for some reason decides to burn all the Tyrells that story won't just end. There has to be foreshadowing and consequences. Which house of the Reach becomes the new Lord Paramount? Same question for Dorne. And there's not even a close to obvious answer for either situation. So of course, it's not going to happen because it's ludicrous and bad story telling.

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Foreshadowing and storytelling consequences were mentioned!  As reasons not to smash flowers?!    How about as reasons to hulk smash the garden!

 

Mace is dumb.   And he's getting overcommitted.   And the Lann queen mother has his back in a different way than he or anyone in his position would like.   Total death in the offing.

Thorny is old.  Winter! has spurted and she is an old flower.  She may play a fine shell game when enemy forces come for her, using deception and a bit of french resistance to prolong her life, but she won't run, so being found is the outcome.

"Ha ha, my horse was in estrus" guy, the knight of flowers, is like Derrick Rose (for those who read AND hoop).   He's one of the best but subjects himself to lots of attrition chances.   Eventually that gets you.  Either it already happened or he's pulling a fast one with the story Cercei was told.  But add that much hubris to his character and he's all set up for glory.  Errr, death.

The whole thing with Dorne is its uppety people want to implode and run into the fire so bad, and Dannee is a fire provider, and they're moving to sideline Daenerys?!   Nobody puts baby in a corner.

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3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Mace is dumb.   And he's getting overcommitted.   And the Lann queen mother has his back in a different way than he or anyone in his position would like.   Total death in the offing.

Thorny is old.  Winter! has spurted and she is an old flower.  She may play a fine shell game when enemy forces come for her, using deception and a bit of french resistance to prolong her life, but she won't run, so being found is the outcome.

"Ha ha, my horse was in estrus" guy, the knight of flowers, is like Derrick Rose (for those who read AND hoop).   He's one of the best but subjects himself to lots of attrition chances.   Eventually that gets you.  Either it already happened or he's pulling a fast one with the story Cercei was told.  But add that much hubris to his character and he's all set up for glory.  Errr, death.

The whole thing with Dorne is its uppety people want to implode and run into the fire so bad, and Dannee is a fire provider, and they're moving to sideline Daenerys?!   Nobody puts baby in a corner.

Think you're missing a LOT of flowers in that garden. And Dany kind of owes the Martells a son. 

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I doubt the entire Tyrell family tree is gonna die out since they have a pretty big family tree. However I agree that the main branch of the Tyrells will die out, and the Tyrells will lose their status as Lords of Highgarden and become nothing more than petty lords or household knights.

The Martells are definitely gonna die out as a house. Doran is unable to sire more children and his oldest son was roasted alive, leaving him with his youngest child and his unmarried heir whos around 21-23 years of age and should have been married by now. Somehow I see all of Doran's children being killed off, leaving him with the Sand Snakes and maybe some other cadet branch of House Martell, who will probably also die out. 

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12 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

his unmarried heir whos around 21-23 years of age

I didn't know that women in Westeros became menopausal in their early 20s :P the secret Viserys thing took up a lot of time for matchmaking, and the middle of a war isn't always the best time to look for the best spouse. I think Arianne will be fine, but she is in some danger, going to the Stormlands in the Winds chapters.

I don't see what immediate threat to Trystane (Doran discovered the Lannister plot to kill him), and I think in the worst-case scenario, the Sand Snakes would be accepted if they were legitimised (Sarella, for one, would make a great ruler!)

We know of Manfrey Martell and his wife, so there are definitely cadet branches.

As for the Tyrells...

Well, for them to die out, you'd have to kill

  1. Mace Tyrell
  2. Willas Tyrell
  3. Garlan Tyrell
  4. Margaery Tyrell
  5. Mina Tyrell Redwyne, and kids
  6. Janna Tyrell Fossoway, and kids
  7. Garth Tyrell, and bastards
  8. Moryn Tyrell
  9. Theodore Tyrell
  10. Luthr Tyrell
  11. Elinor Tyrell
  12. Olene Tyrell Blackbar, and any potential kids
  13. Olymer Tyrell
  14. Raymund Tyrell
  15. Rickard Tyrell 
  16. Megga Tyrell
  17. Leo Tyrell
  18. Lyonel Tyrell
  19. Lucas Tyrell
  20. Lorent Tyrell
  21. Alla Tyrell
  22. Leona Tyrell
  23. Victaria Tyrell Bulwer, and her daughter

I think that's a bit of a stretch. ;)

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21 hours ago, silverwolf22 said:

I know I was just saying the tyrells we know about  like mace , olenna, margery etc will die 

All will die. Valar morghulis.

But Tyrells are not really flowers and Martells are not really suns, so I would find it odd for Martin to engage in this kind of symbolism in order to bring on the next long night. As Illyrio says:

"You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles. I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. The prince keeps a pride in his menagerie. Would you like to share a cage with them?"

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I don't see why all members of House Tyrell would have to perish for the house to symbolically die this winter. A symbolic death of a house could mean a lot of things.

Perhaps it means the head of the house, symbolic or otherwise, will die. I would not be surprised to see Mace and/or Olenna bite it in tWoW.

Maybe it means the Tyrells will be supplanted by another house as the most powerful in the Reach. 

Maybe George has something completely different in mind, he's very good at symbolism.

Also, keep in mind that roses can be protected in winter, as we see from the glass gardens in Winterfell. Perhaps something glass related (dragonglass, anyone?) will protect the Tyrells this Winter.

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6 hours ago, Vaith said:

I didn't know that women in Westeros became menopausal in their early 20s :P the secret Viserys thing took up a lot of time for matchmaking, and the middle of a war isn't always the best time to look for the best spouse. I think Arianne will be fine, but she is in some danger, going to the Stormlands in the Winds chapters.

I don't see what immediate threat to Trystane (Doran discovered the Lannister plot to kill him), and I think in the worst-case scenario, the Sand Snakes would be accepted if they were legitimised (Sarella, for one, would make a great ruler!)

We know of Manfrey Martell and his wife, so there are definitely cadet branches.

As for the Tyrells...

Well, for them to die out, you'd have to kill

  1. Mace Tyrell
  2. Willas Tyrell
  3. Garlan Tyrell
  4. Margaery Tyrell
  5. Mina Tyrell Redwyne, and kids
  6. Janna Tyrell Fossoway, and kids
  7. Garth Tyrell, and bastards
  8. Moryn Tyrell
  9. Theodore Tyrell
  10. Luthr Tyrell
  11. Elinor Tyrell
  12. Olene Tyrell Blackbar, and any potential kids
  13. Olymer Tyrell
  14. Raymund Tyrell
  15. Rickard Tyrell 
  16. Megga Tyrell
  17. Leo Tyrell
  18. Lyonel Tyrell
  19. Lucas Tyrell
  20. Lorent Tyrell
  21. Alla Tyrell
  22. Leona Tyrell
  23. Victaria Tyrell Bulwer, and her daughter

I think that's a bit of a stretch. ;)

Never said all the Tyrells were due to die, but only the main Tyrells of much more nobler blood (mace, Loras etc.)

 

I said Arianne is unmarried at her age because I was pointing out that she should have been wednd therefore has no children of her own body, so if she dies during her time with Aegon and company, her line is gonna end with her. Whilst Trystane I feel that George will also kill him off, since he did mention some great houses are due to get killed off, and I'm just pointing out why the Martell's can be killed off since this Topic is based on the assumption of the fall of Martells and Tyrells. 

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21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Maybe it means the Tyrells will be supplanted by another house as the most powerful in the Reach. 

I will grant this: If Stannis wins House Florent would replace House Tyrell. There is an amount of foreshadowing to that. There is also a small enough amount of foreshadowing that if Dany wins without the Tyrells bending the knee that House Hightower will replace the Tyrells. 

Honestly after coming on here Aeron's chapter has made me much more tense about the ironborn campaign than I was about the battle of ice, the return of Jon Snow, or the Battle of Mereen. Simply because I realized how close Euron was to a point where Sam is going to have to use those new archery skills. 

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On 4/3/2019 at 4:16 AM, The Young Maester said:

I doubt the entire Tyrell family tree is gonna die out since they have a pretty big family tree. However I agree that the main branch of the Tyrells will die out, and the Tyrells will lose their status as Lords of Highgarden and become nothing more than petty lords or household knights.

I agree with this. Olenna made it clear that the Tyrells shouldnt feel safe as Lords of HG:

Quote

truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. '

 

47 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

If Stannis wins House Florent would replace House Tyrell. There is an amount of foreshadowing to that.

I dont think the Florents will be the replacement. After supporting Stannis in all this toime and after Garlan will siege them they wont have any power left.

 

The main branch of House Martell is going to die out. Doran is digging them a nice grave with all his conspirencies. Trystane is going to die in KL because of Cersei and Ariannes Stormland trip is more dangerous than she thinks.

I also see very bad chances for the Sandsnakes: Obara loses against Darkstar, Tyene will die in Cerseis Anti-Sparrow-Campaign, Nymeria in a KL intrigue and I dont see Sarella coming back from the Citadel (only as Maester).

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33 minutes ago, Karneol said:

I also see very bad chances for the Sandsnakes: Obara loses against Darkstar, Tyene will die in Cerseis Anti-Sparrow-Campaign, Nymeria in a KL intrigue and I dont see Sarella coming back from the Citadel (only as Maester).

And how are Obella, Dorea and Loreza Sand in danger at the moment?

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So by the same measure all Bastards in the Crownlands will freeze and stop moving? 

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I don’t think we can take this so literally as to assume that the Tyrells will fare poorly in the winter or that the Martells will cease to exist.

On 4/3/2019 at 7:52 AM, John Suburbs said:

All will die. Valar morghulis.

But Tyrells are not really flowers and Martells are not really suns, so I would find it odd for Martin to engage in this kind of symbolism in order to bring on the next long night. As Illyrio says:

"You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles. I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. The prince keeps a pride in his menagerie. Would you like to share a cage with them?"

I think this really does capture the essence of it. We may see this symbolism take hold on a smaller scale with those who embody their family’s ideologies more literally. This begs the question “who’s the most rose-like of the Tyrells?” This is admittedly an absurd question. But as with people, there are many types of roses. In this particular story I seem to recall a winter rose being of certain importance. 

 

My feeling is that there are other families of similar prominence that are actually (in my opinion) closer to extermination and probably less likely to live to see the spring. Chief among them are the Lannisters and the Arryns. These families are in precarious positions and they don’t exactly have the numbers to withstand any significant number of killings. These families also lack the convenient symbolism that Martells and Tryells have, and it’s poor writing if the symbolism gets to pick and choose when it does and doesn’t apply. 

 

Also first post! Long time lurker here. 

Edited by In Cauda Venenum

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3 hours ago, Vaith said:

And how are Obella, Dorea and Loreza Sand in danger at the moment?

Forgot about them.

In AffC hes locking these children up, that implies that they have some political power. And in the Got having power puts automatically a target on your back. 

Like I already said Doran is digging himself a nice grave and wehave to consider the possibillity that he takes some people with him.

But we have to think also about Dorans first fear. That the Sandsnakes are used as figurheads for rebellion. We already know that quiete a few Dornishmen are not happy with Dorans politics and they are wanting what Oberyn tried: bloody vegance for Elia Martell. And who do you put on the top of such movements? The "founders" daughters.

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4 hours ago, In Cauda Venenum said:

first post! Long time lurker 

“who’s the most rose-like of the Tyrells?” This is admittedly an absurd question.

   Hi.  None of the smilees wave (!?) so here you go  :leer:.

Margeary is the most like a rose.  She keeps growing new rose buds.  Hymens.  Hymae?   Or, in the original espanol, Jaime.   Glad to help!

     As for the topic, there's a noticeable extinction countdown clock on all these leading families.   With the Starks and Freys you really notice it.   Arryn has the writing on the wall, a castle where no weir can grow nor any heir get bigger than a sapling.   Similar with Daenerys the barren baroness.  Lannister and Tyrell seem numerous enough to ensure a succession of some kind after the main characters totally totally die. (Though Tyrion and Darkstar and Euron might blow up those castles, in essence diminishing those families back into the pack of vying competitors.)   

Martels are accident prone vis a vis cranium crushing.  Hightower i don't even know what their deal is, if the lord stops being weird long enough to procreate.  He may be found grafted to his couch.  But isn't their citadel pad marked as the Dresden of westeros?   It's gonna blow up real good.   Stormlords are taking losses with the rest.  You know the Greyjoys are nuts waiting to roast over the open fire Varys style.  Pulling for the she-kraken, but :dunno: .

 Meanwhile the Others are gaining kids/heirs like they run an orphanage.   Frey was in the best position to live out the winter by supplying the walkers with his endless supply of kids, but not so much anymore.   It's looking good for a total reset, the dumping of these eternal ruling houses and their illustrious surnames.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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