UK Politics: The Edge of Destruction

[A Horse Named Stranger]

12 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Yes but... Partly Lib Dem are the only nation-wide pro-remain party (I think, not sure about Green, for whom Brexit is a relatively minor concern); and partly that if rather not split the vote, even though it's PR

Greens are Europeans. This is most certainly not a minor issue for them. You can actually follow their reasoning quite easily.

1. Brexit means (relatively) high EU enviromental and consumer standards will no longer apply.

2. Tory deregulation means those standards will be one of the first off to the chopping block.

3. Brexit = bad.

Add to that.

The bad boys of Brexit page, that's been around for years,

Was/is the project of Green MEP Molly Scott Cato.

[Spockydog]

Hmmm....

Quote

Switzerland’s supreme court has overturned a nationwide referendum for the first time in the country’s modern history, on the grounds that the information given to voters was insufficient.

In a ruling that may have some resonance in Britain, where remain campaigners have long argued that voters in the 2016 Brexit referendum were not adequately informed, the court said incomplete detail and a lack of transparency had violated the freedom of the vote, which could now be re-run.

“Given the tight outcome of the vote and the seriousness of the irregularities, it is possible that the result of the ballot would have been different,” the federal court said. It was the first time a result had been annulled in Switzerland, which has held about 300 referendums since 1848.

 

 

[A wilding]

3 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Yes but... Partly Lib Dem are the only nation-wide pro-remain party (I think, not sure about Green, for whom Brexit is a relatively minor concern); and partly that if rather not split the vote, even though it's PR

The Greens are firmly and totally pro-remain.

That said, I think the new centre group has plans to put up a slate of specifically pro-remain candidates. It may be worth watching to see what happens with them .

[Jen'ari]

7 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Was that Tim Farron?  I hope it's not a party policy.

It isn't party policy it was just his own personal opinion, also even before that I couldn't take him seriously, he constantly looked like he was on the verge of bursting into tears.

 

So Brexit has thankfully been postponed until October(no thanks to Macron), hopefully the infighting and outright stupidity continues long enough for another referendum.

 

[Clueless Northman]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Hmmm....

 

That was apparently because the government official information provided to the people to help them choose was supposed to be neutral, exact and objective - I mean, they are the taxation authority, they should have the correct data -, not because the arguments of one side or the other were wrong. The day you cancel a vote because one side - specially partisan non-official non-governmental one - has misled the people, you're going to have to stop letting people vote, because every side does it in every single popular vote and election all across the world. And frankly, even here, that sounds like overkill and sets a dangerous precedent for Switzerland - from now one, every time there's a tight result, the losing side will go to the courts.

 

Speaking of courts, I heard there's something interesting going on in London today with an Aussie refugee 

[williamjm]

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Honestly i keep forgetting the lib dems even exist. The only reason theyve gave me cause to think about them in recent years was the whole refusing to say gay sex is not sinful, or whatever it was. (Was this pre-Brexit actually?)

That was during the campaign for May's snap general election. At a time when they had a perfect opportunity to try to win support from disgruntled Remainers it was ridiculous that Farron managed to overshadow his party's campaign.

Replacing Farron with Vince Cable was an improvement, but it still felt a bit desperate that they couldn't find anyone younger and less tainted by the memory of the Coalition to lead them.

4 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Sinn Féin and Plaid Cymru are the other two regional parties you forgot to mention. And yes, Sinn Féin takes up their seat in the European Parliament.

I'll admit I haven't researched their manifestos but I suspect some of the other Northern Irish parties are also pro-Remain, there's always going to be part of the electorate that would never contemplate voting for Sinn Fein.

[Jen'ari]

6 minutes ago, williamjm said:

That was during the campaign for May's snap general election. At a time when they had a perfect opportunity to try to win support from disgruntled Remainers it was ridiculous that Farron managed to overshadow his party's campaign.

Replacing Farron with Vince Cable was an improvement, but it still felt a bit desperate that they couldn't find anyone younger and less tainted by the memory of the Coalition to lead them.

I'll admit I haven't researched their manifestos but I suspect some of the other Northern Irish parties are also pro-Remain, there's always going to be part of the electorate that would never contemplate voting for Sinn Fein.

To be fair though it's not like they have a large pool of MPs to choose from anymore, while I'm not suggesting she should have been leader their new MP who beat Zac Goldsmith looked younger and promising but ended up losing her seat back to him after what 6 months?.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

11 minutes ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

So Brexit has thankfully been postponed until October(no thanks to Macron), hopefully the infighting and outright stupidity continues long enough for another referendum. 

Referendum needs an acitve act of parliament, a referendum bill if you will. They couldn't agree on anything under immense pressure from that big imaginary clock. Now those additional six months have eased the pressure significantly. I think you can at least argue, that if they couldn't decide on anything under extreme pressure, that they won't be able to decide on anything without it.

[williamjm]

5 minutes ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

To be fair though it's not like they have a large pool of MPs to choose from anymore, while I'm not suggesting she should have been leader their new MP who beat Zac Goldsmith looked younger and promising but ended up losing her seat back to him after what 6 months?.

Under the circumstances I wonder whether they should have considered a leader who wasn't a MP?

[mormont]

1 hour ago, A wilding said:

The Greens are firmly and totally pro-remain. 

And technically not a UK-wide party: the Scottish Green Party is separate from the Green Party.

4 minutes ago, williamjm said:

Under the circumstances I wonder whether they should have considered a leader who wasn't a MP?

They did, I believe?

After checking: well, they sort of did. Cable put forward a change in the rules to allow this, and the party conference rejected it.

Cable was an 'improvement' only in the sense that Farron was both completely ineffectual and totally unsuitable, whereas Cable is merely completely ineffectual.

[Jen'ari]

11 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Referendum needs an acitve act of parliament, a referendum bill if you will. They couldn't agree on anything under immense pressure from that big imaginary clock. Now those additional six months have eased the pressure significantly. I think you can at least argue, that if they couldn't decide on anything under extreme pressure, that they won't be able to decide on anything without it.

That's true, I guess, like many other people I'm just hoping they exhaust all other options and it's the only one left!.

7 minutes ago, williamjm said:

Under the circumstances I wonder whether they should have considered a leader who wasn't a MP?

I'm not sure if there would be precedent for that in such an established party?, I guess you could argue the case for it given the huge losses they've suffered?.

[HexMachina]

Not sure if its more appropriate for here or the international news thread. But it gives us a small break from Brexit so: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/11/julian-assange-arrested-at-ecuadorian-embassy-wikileaks

Quote

Julian Assange is facing extradition to the United States and up to five years in prison after he was forcibly dragged from the Ecuadorian embassy in London on Thursday, bringing an extraordinary seven-year diplomatic stalemate to an end.

After 2,487 days in the embassy, the 47-year-old was arrested after Ecuador revoked his political asylum and invited Metropolitan police officers inside their Knightsbridge premises, where Assange has stayed since 2012 to avoid extradition to Sweden over sexual assault allegations.

Later on Thursday, he was found guilty of failing to surrender to the court and faces up to 12 months in a British prison.

Ecuador's reasons for withdrawing asylum

Quote

The list ranged from meddling in Ecuador’s relations with other countries to having to “put up with his rudeness” for nearly seven years.

...

His second point focused on Assange’s behavior which wavered between riding a skateboard and playing football inside the small embassy to mistreating and threatening embassy staff and even coming to blows with security workers. Valencia said the whistleblower and his lawyers had made “insulting threats” against the country accusing its officials of being pressured by other countries.

He said Assange “permanently accused [embassy] staff of spying on and filming him” on behalf of the United States and instead of thanking Ecuador for nearly seven years of asylum he and his entourage launched “an avalanche of criticisms” against the Ecuadorean government. He referred also to the guest’s “hygienic” problems including one which was “very unpleasant” and “attributed to a digestive problem.”

But Assange’s deteriorating health was also major concern, the minister said, as he could not be properly treated in the embassy building. He added the fact the UK would not consider granting him safe conduct meant Ecuador faced the prospect of him staying “indefinitely in the diplomatic headquarters.”

The minister went on to say Ecuador could not extend asylum to a person fleeing justice and there was no extradition request for Assange when Ecuador ended his asylum. The UK had offered sufficient guarantees of due process to Assange, Valencia added, and that he would not be extradited to a country where he could face torture or the death penalty.

Finally, there were “multiple inconsistencies” in how Assange had been granted Ecuadorean citizenship and his stay had proved very costly, the minister said. Ecuador had spent more $5.8m on its guest’s security between 2012 and 2018 and nearly $400,000 on his medical costs, food and laundry, he added.

Earlier on Thursday, Ecuador’s interior minister, María Paula Romo, said authorities had identified “one of the key member of Wikileaks and people close to Mr Julian Assange” living in the country several years.

“We have sufficient evidence that they have been collaborating with destabilization attempts against the Ecuadorean government,” she said, noting that they had travelled with Ricardo Patiño, the former foreign minister who granted asylum to Assange in 2012, to Peru, Spain and Venezuela.

She added the identity and location of two Russian hackers who were also living in Ecuador would be delivered to the state prosecutor’s office.

ETA: nevermind, i see it is being discussed in the international thread

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

That's true, I guess, like many other people I'm just hoping they exhaust all other options and it's the only one left!.

 

Possible... However, seeing Corbyn just banging on that the extension shows how much of a shamble the goverment's Brexit is, my money is on Tories and Labour to happily continue with their party politics shenanigans.

The right wing of the Tory party happily suggesting the EU will re-open the WA and offer a better deal if they just demand it loudly enough and threaten to crash out more seriously. The PM at some point giving in to that nonsense, pretending she will get a better from the EU; this time for realz. The right wing British media will continue with their witch hunt for traitors and internal saboteurs. Labour sitting on the fence, suggesting they would back a Labour Brexit. Then it's June, and May will say she will need the extension till October to get her deal through Westminster; this time for realz. And so we will continue with

A jump to the left and a step the right. Put your hands on the hips

C'mon, everybody you knew where this was or rather is going.

[Maltaran]

2 hours ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

To be fair though it's not like they have a large pool of MPs to choose from anymore, while I'm not suggesting she should have been leader their new MP who beat Zac Goldsmith looked younger and promising but ended up losing her seat back to him after what 6 months?.

I suspect Jo Swinson will be the next leader, after she won her seat back in 2017 (it seems the main reason Farron got in was because almost all of the other potential candidates lost their seats in 2015)

[ljkeane]

3 hours ago, williamjm said:

I'll admit I haven't researched their manifestos but I suspect some of the other Northern Irish parties are also pro-Remain, there's always going to be part of the electorate that would never contemplate voting for Sinn Fein.

I'd imagine the SDLP are probably pro remain and they have the advantage of never having been intimately involved in a campaign of terrorism and murder.

[williamjm]

19 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

As for the European elections, idencorage everyone to vote, especially the younger generation who may not know that they need to register (by May 6th) and to remember that it's proportional representation, do tactical voting is pointless. We're due to send some lame ducks for 5 months, do this can be a single-issue vote (probably should be).

If you object to the way the Conservatives have run brexit, just vote anyone-but-con.

If you object to the way labour have handled their side, vote anyone-but-lab.

If you want to remain, vote Lib Dem.

If you want to leave with no deal, vote UKIP.

We may not get a 3rd referendum, but this election will sure as hell be taken as being indicative, and will send a real message about where public opinion is - whether you vote or not.

There are also (in some places) the local elections on the 2nd of May which could potentially be another opportunity to send a message. Of course, Brexit may not be the central issue in the same way it would be for the Euro elections but the parties will still notice any big shifts in their vote.

In the latest (general election) poll Labour has a 9-point lead over the Tories. I suspect that's a bit of an outlier, but while Labour have a polling advantage I think it's unlikely May's going to think a snap election is the way forward.

1 minute ago, ljkeane said:

I'd imagine the SDLP are probably pro remain and they have the advantage of never having been intimately involved in a campaign of terrorism and murder.

I'm assuming the same is true of the Alliance Party. I'd suspect the Ulster Unionists might be more leaning towards leave, but not as clearly as the DUP.

[Ser Hedge]

7 hours ago, williamjm said:

If you want to remain, vote Lib Dem.

(that's actually @Which Tyler's quote)

Sends a clear message to the big 2. Voting Lab (merely as a protest vote I mean), will be spun in different ways and might actually get the centre of gravity of the Tories to shift more towards hard Brexit to gain votes from UKIP voters, resulting in about complete deadlock in October.

 

[mormont]

8 hours ago, Maltaran said:

I suspect Jo Swinson will be the next leader, after she won her seat back in 2017 (it seems the main reason Farron got in was because almost all of the other potential candidates lost their seats in 2015)

Farron had been talked about as a leadership candidate before that, but it's true they didn't have a lot of options.

[Mosi Mynn]

12 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

That was apparently because the government official information provided to the people to help them choose was supposed to be neutral, exact and objective ....

I think you could argue that the government/Remain side of the Brexit argument were not neutral, exact, objective or even factual in 2016.  There was wild hyperbole and fear-mongering on both sides.

My worry for a second referendum would be: what if Leave won again?  There's no guarantee either or any way.

[mormont]

I do find myself agreeing with Jeremy Corbyn for once:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47904837

Assange shouldn't be extradited to the US over the WikiLeaks charges. But he should be extradited to Sweden over the rape charge, if and when the authorities there resurrect that (and the victim's lawyer has asked them to do so). 

I'm not sure why the BBC reckon this is a controversial stance with Labour supporters? Many of them are fans, many dislike him, but few in my experience would disagree with the fact that the US charges are politically motivated, even if some argue (wrongly) that the Swedish charges are too.